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CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/30/2007 5:04:58 PM

Chad Harrison

Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
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As promised for Ravinhood, I am starting a new thread about CM:SF (Combat Mission Shock Force) because the old thread is more about peoples political opinions about the game and its setting than it is about the actual game itself.

First off, I have been playing CM:BO since it came out. I played CM:BO PBEM for years, usually around 10-15 PBEM games at a time. I loved CM:BO, it was great fun. I played CM:BB and CM:AK a lot also, but mostly single player and mostly QB games. All that being said, I had just finished installing CM:SF on Friday and my WitP PBEM turn showed up and I put off playing CM:SF for the first time so I could do my PBEM turn. My counteroffensive in Burma and the Solomons always takes priority over other games

I find it funny that so many people were so negative about the setting for the wargame. I find it no more offensive that BF2, the new Ghost Recons, and the countless other ganster wannabe games that have you killing innocent people for fun. Here we are back to that whole opinion thing. But, if you want to continue your political discussion of the games setting, please do it in the other thread.

As for CM:SF itself, after a weekend of playing . . . I love it.

The first thing that hit me was the graphics. No, its not Company of Heroes, but they are great. I had my brother who just got back from Iraq take at look at how everything looks, the rates of fire of different things (sorry, I have never fired a MK 19 before) and he was very impressed. Its obvious Battlefront did their homework. The sound is amazing too, and I mean amazing.

Once I got over the initial shock of the very nice graphics and sound, I started to get a feel for the new game. The dev team had a big problem when they started their design on the new CM: do we just put on a new coat of paint and add a feature or two OR do we go back to the drawing board and make the CM series move forward? If you have seen previews for the new Starcraft, Blizzard is adding a new coat of paint, some new units and thats it. But, its still the same Starcraft that people have been playing for years. Battlefront not only added a new coat of paint to the CM series, they went back to the drawing board and decided what THEY thought worked and what THEY thought didnt work with the previous iterations of the CM series.

CM:SF is not the old CM's with just a new coat of paint. They changed and/or modified a LOT of aspects, some core aspects, of the CM series. At first, I was almost disappointed at these changes. I mean, they changed the sacred CM formula! However, the more I played CM:SF, the more I liked the changes, even the core ones. Obviously, there are going to be a lot of people who feel the same way, and a lot of people who are not happy with the changes. I think time will have to tell whether the changes are accepted by the majority of people, or not. I mean, the game has only been out for four days now so a lot of complaints on the dev forums are based more on emotion than actual opinions. Wait, theres a difference right?

Lastly, theres the 'warts and all'. Technical problems for me did not, and do not exist. I downloaded it with no problems (at full speed too, I was impressed), installed and activated it with no problems, and it runs wonderfully. No CTD's, no awful framerats. Nothing. But, obviously thats not true for everyone. A number of people are having problems. If your having problems, try the official forums, the Dev's have posted a number of fixes that you can do now while they work on a patch to address the more common problems. Also, with a new graphics engine obviously there are funny things that happen visually and some rough, graphical edges. These do not affect gameplay though. And as with any game, the AI and pathfinding need some additional love. But thats true for every game out there.

As with any game, this game isnt going to be everyone cup of tea. There are already 'old timer' CM players who have voiced that they dont like it and ofcourse they are all pissed at Battlefront because how dare the dev team change 'their' game. Whatever. I am interested to see what reviewers have to say about it.

If your sitting on the fence about it, just try the demo. If the demo is not working on your computer (and it should be w/ your tech specs), just wait for the next patch to come out and then try it again.

But again, just for your Ravinhood

, I like the game. Its the first game I have bought since WitP that I am actually enjoying. There are some rough edges, and some technical problems with some peoples play, but this ones a keeper. Battlefront is great about fixing their games and adding new features so I know that it will be an even better game a few months from now.

Chad

BTW, feel free to ask any questions about the game if I didnt cover something you are wondering about.

Post #: 1

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/30/2007 8:19:13 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

Be warned if you have an ATI card and Vista, it will not work.

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Post #: 2

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/30/2007 8:27:31 PM

pad152

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline

Chad are we playing the same game?

Well I'm a big fan of the CM series, but this game seems like the development was farmed out to someone who never played the CM games. I didn't have any crashes and the game seems to run great on my 3yr old dell with a GF6800 GS video card.

Camera
I just don't understand why Battlefront needed three different set of controls. Half the keys on the keyboard are used for camera which don't work very well, then using the mouse pointer to upper left or upper right of the screen (like the old CM games), last there is the right mouse button to pan with the mouse wheel to zoom.

InterFace
It uses a set of tabs for Movement, Stance, Attack, Special, so to move a unit you first click the movement tab, the select the type of movement, Quick, Fast, Hunt, etc. then use the mouse to select the movement way points, with a final right mouse click to complete the order. The keyboard short cuts only work if the correct tab is selected. I play with one hand on the mouse and the other on the keyboard, it works but whole thing seems like more work than it should be.

Save Games
Save and Load seems to be have been the standard but Shock Force uses Save & Saved Game, Huh? You can't load a mission or quick battle while in a mission you have to exit to the main menu. This is the type of little thing that just make you wonder who developed this?

Quick Battles
To me this is where the wheels fall off. I knew SF didn't have a random map generator, but I didn't know you couldn't select/purchase the forces you want for the player or AI. One of four things seem to happen in QB battles, no enemy shows up on the map, units get deployed all over the map, stuck between buildings, enemies spawn on top of your forces or you get unbalanced forces. There are only 14 QB maps so you see the same map over and over again. Even when QB seems to work, you often get match ups that aren't very good. Twice in QB's, I didn't have to anything, as soon as I clicked start, my forces fired and destroyed the enemy without me doing a thing, no tactics, no movement, nothing, all I did was watch! That's one of the issues with the modern combat if you can see it you can kill it, More often than not your units will spot, fire, and kill the enemy without the player doing any thing or before you even see them. I think the maps in SF are too small for modern combat. How could something like quick battles that worked so well in the early CM games, be so poorly done in SF? There is talk about additional expansion packs to add new units and forces, but what's the point if you can't select or purchase the units you want?

Wego
Turn based CM is dead in SF, Wego doesn't allow you to play multiplayer, and you can't que orders like you can in RT.

Some of the stand alone missions are good, some are just ok but, without good quick battles I don't see anyone getting years of enjoyment out of this one, unlike the older CM titles.

There are a lot of other little things that just make the game seem unfinished. I haven't tried the editor yet, but I don't want to write AI scripts (required), I want to play a game, I guess BattleFront didn't figure this out with Theathre of War, and offered $1500 for players to create movies instead of creating new campaigns.

< Message edited by pad152 -- 7/30/2007 8:28:01 PM >

(in reply to Chad Harrison)

Post #: 3

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/30/2007 9:27:36 PM

Chad Harrison

Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
Chad are we playing the same game?

I think so

Does the MK 19 light up everything in your game? Does watching a Javalin take down a building full of insurgents never get old in your game?

quote:

Camera
I just don't understand why Battlefront needed three different set of controls. Half the keys on the keyboard are used for camera which don't work very well, then using the mouse pointer to upper left or upper right of the screen (like the old CM games), last there is the right mouse button to pan with the mouse wheel to zoom.

I use a combination of the mouse and the WASD keys to move the camera around. I also heavily use the preset camera positions (ie. pressing 1, 2, . . . up to 9), which is the exact same thing I did in CMx1. I would select a unit, press tab, hit 1 or 2. I do the EXACT same thing now in CMx2. Select a unit, hit tab, press 2 (I like this view best in CM:SF) and move the camera as needed from there. I play excluseively in WEGO (or, you know, forced pause RT

), so I have more time to move to the camera around with the stress of real time.

quote:

InterFace
It uses a set of tabs for Movement, Stance, Attack, Special, so to move a unit you first click the movement tab, the select the type of movement, Quick, Fast, Hunt, etc. then use the mouse to select the movement way points, with a final right mouse click to complete the order. The keyboard short cuts only work if the correct tab is selected. I play with one hand on the mouse and the other on the keyboard, it works but whole thing seems like more work than it should be.

I would prefer to be able to just use the 'old' CMx1 way of things and have shortcut keys to the same command; ie. M is move, T is target and so on. From reading the forums, I get the feeling that this will be forthcoming in the coming patches. Did you catch that you can tab through the different tabs with the T and Y keys? Thats what I do and I have no problems giving orders quickly through the different tabs. But, I would like to have universal keys back, but its not ruining my gameplay.

quote:

Save Games
Save and Load seems to be have been the standard but Shock Force uses Save & Saved Game, Huh? You can't load a mission or quick battle while in a mission you have to exit to the main menu. This is the type of little thing that just make you wonder who developed this?

Thats the way it was in CMx1 wasnt it? You could only load a game from the main menu, right? I hadnt even stopped to think about this because the only time I load a previously saved game is when I first fire up the game, from the main menu. If you want to re-load your game on a regular basis because you were not happy with something that happened, I could understand this being awkward. But, they might have put this in on purpose to discourage re-loading your game everytime something bad happens.

quote:

Quick Battles
To me this is where the wheels fall off. I knew SF didn't have a random map generator, but I didn't know you couldn't select/purchase the forces you want for the player or AI. One of four things seem to happen in QB battles, no enemy shows up on the map, units get deployed all over the map, stuck between buildings, enemies spawn on top of your forces or you get unbalanced forces. There are only 14 QB maps so you see the same map over and over again. Even when QB seems to work, you often get match ups that aren't very good. Twice in QB's, I didn't have to anything, as soon as I clicked start, my forces fired and destroyed the enemy without me doing a thing, no tactics, no movement, nothing, all I did was watch! That's one of the issues with the modern combat if you can see it you can kill it, More often than not your units will spot, fire, and kill the enemy without the player doing any thing or before you even see them. I think the maps in SF are too small for modern combat. How could something like quick battles that worked so well in the early CM games, be so poorly done in SF? There is talk about additional expansion packs to add new units and forces, but what's the point if you can't select or purchase the units you want?

In the CMx1 games, in the first week I would play a few of the canned missions and maybe a campaign. From that point on, all I would ever play were QB's. Especially through PBEM.

For one, I dont miss buying your own troops. Remember in CMBO when your PBEM opponent would show up with just Tigers and SMG squads? Remember Fionns house rules for balance in PBEM? It seemed like we spent more time trying to keep the game playable and fun then we did actually playing becuase people could show up with crazy stuff. That being said, I think it would be fun to have the ability to buy your troops back, but its not a game breaker for me.

I do agree that there are far too few maps available for QB's right now. Once I get geared up to start playing PBEM, I am going to personally create 10 or so maps that are used for QB's. Even if they are boring, mirrored maps. Then if I can get about 5 or so other people to do so, BOOM! We have an additional 50 or so maps for QB's. You dont need to do AI plans or anything like that. Just make sure both sides have objectives and clear setup zones and your done.

I might be playing my QB's differently, or have different settings, but I have had no problems with troops showing up on top of each other, or the other side having no troops. I do know others are having these problems though. Obviously, something like this will get cleared up in the next patch or two, so its a temporary annoyance.

Another temporary annoyance is the balance of QB's, I do agree on that. If you have a Stryker platoon rolling against your opponent in a small QB, he had better have a lot of guys to offset that much firepower. Right now, the automatic balance in QB's doesnt feel right, assigning far too low 'points' for armored forces. Its not just the US either. If you play RED vs RED, like Syria versus insurgents (loads of fun BTW), you have the same problems.

Give the whole QB thing a patch or two and I know BFC will take care of it. Like you and me, I know this where most people spend all their time.

quote:

Wego
Turn based CM is dead in SF, Wego doesn't allow you to play multiplayer, and you can't que orders like you can in RT.

Some of the stand alone missions are good, some are just ok but, without good quick battles I don't see anyone getting years of enjoyment out of this one, unlike the older CM titles.

I have exclusively played WEGO in CM:SF. Yeah you cant fast forward through the turn because it calculated as the 1 min passes, but thats the only real change I see to WEGO. I do agree that they need to make WEGO available for TCP/IP though. Obviously, it is already available for PBEM, which is where I spend all my time.

How do you mean you cant que orders? I have not noticed this yet.

quote:

There are a lot of other little things that just make the game seem unfinished. I haven't tried the editor yet, but I don't want to write AI scripts (required), I want to play a game, I guess BattleFront didn't figure this out with Theathre of War, and offered $1500 for players to create movies instead of creating new campaigns.

AI scripts are not required. Just give the AI side an objective and they will do the rest, just like it was in CMx1's. The AI scripts are an ADDED feature that enhances the power of the editor, but is not required. The AI just needs something to shoot for and then they will be as stupid as they were in CMx1. Man, I dont ever remember loosing to the AI in CMx1's. They were so stupid against someone who had played for more than 10 minutes.

Yes the game does have rough edges, but if you have been playing CM from the get go, you know BFC will iron them out and add new features to the game. This game certainly is not without its release problems, but what game isnt? Shoot, how long has WitP been out and they have not addressed many of the issues and/or bugs in the game.

I really think CM:SF is going to get even better with time. But for now, even in its current state, I am enjoying it just as much as the CMx1 games, if not more.

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 4

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/30/2007 11:03:02 PM

pad152

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline

quote:

How do you mean you cant que orders? I have not noticed this yet.

In RT you can have Infantry dismount take up position, change facing, deploy a weapon etc.

In Wego, you can't! you can only do one during a 60sec turn.
Turn 1 Dismount
Turn 2 Take up position
Turn 3 Change Face
Turn 4 deploy a weapon
etc.

Most if my QB's in CM1 games were against the AI, I always liked to pick both my own and AI forces. Even when you let the AI pick it's forces, you got pretty balanced forces, so far thats not the case with SF. I really liked to see what I could do with all funky russian early light tanks. I really do hope they fix it, right now BattleFront seems to be in defense mode, defending it.

(in reply to Chad Harrison)

Post #: 5

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 12:25:34 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

quote:

How do you mean you cant que orders? I have not noticed this yet.

In RT you can have Infantry dismount take up position, change facing, deploy a weapon etc.

In Wego, you can't! you can only do one during a 60sec turn.
Turn 1 Dismount
Turn 2 Take up position
Turn 3 Change Face
Turn 4 deploy a weapon
etc.

Most if my QB's in CM1 games were against the AI, I always liked to pick both my own and AI forces. Even when you let the AI pick it's forces, you got pretty balanced forces, so far thats not the case with SF. I really liked to see what I could do with all funky russian early light tanks. I really do hope they fix it, right now BattleFront seems to be in defense mode, defending it.

I was going to bring this up.

I like the game. I like the theme (modern warfare) and I think it's got great potential. But my recomendation to anyone is to wait until they fix some things.

The game looks great. As mentioned above, not Company of Heroes, but presumably that's because more is going under the hood.

The orders problem is a big problem if you like the WEGO system. The fact that I have to tell an MMG unit to dismount and wait 60 secs....then tell them to deploy weapon...then wait 60 seconds....then order them to attack/attack area...by that time, half your squad will be wiped out. Also, when you consider doing these actions with a MMG unit to cover a rifle squad...you haven't even given the rifle squad any orders yet and 3 minutes have gone!

Same goes for AFVs. You can't give a target/target area command AND pop smoke. You can pop smoke, but if you give a pop smoke command and then issue a target area, the pop smoke command is lost. I may be popping smoke, but I still want to cover a certain area. What if my smoke disperses before the 60 seconds is up? I'm sitting in the open with my arse hanging out!

Another wee annoyance is the giving an Target Area command....if you do this, the FACE command is disabled. That wouldn't be so bad, if the AFV KNEW it had to face the area you are covering...but it doesn't...so you are back to the same old "issue face command" wait 60 seconds "issue cover command" wait 60 seconds.

In one of the training missions, I had to take out 3 tanks and 2 bunkers. I loaded the troops with Javelins before they left the AFVs and issued all 3 squads to fire on the tanks. Only one squad fired all 3 Javelins missiles and hit 2 tanks. The next 60 second order pulse, I ordered the 3 squads to fire at the remaining tank. The squad which fired 2 missiles and destroyed the two tanks fired at the 3rd tank and destroyed it. The other two squads WOULD NOT fire their Javelins. The next 60 second order pulse, I ordered the 2 Javelin units that hadn;t fired to fire on the two bunkers. They did not. I had to get the squad that had fired all 3 javelins at the tanks to go to the 4th Stryker, load up on Javelin missiles and fire to destroy the 2 bunkers. Madness. They were able to see the bunker, because it had a MG sign, not a question mark. The game is quite clever (if it's doing it right) at only showing enemy units the selected unit can see or guess there is something there.

In summary

Positives

The game looks good
Animation looks good
Sounds are great

Negatives

The command system for WEGO is unfinished
Right click for issuing commands needs to be an option
The game is bugged. I've had several CTDs, mainly when trying to save a game (first couple of tutorials)
Troops don't seem to do as their told
Pathfinding issues
AI seems to have very little self preservation
The 2 QBs I have played, the placement of AI was atrocious

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 7/31/2007 12:26:03 AM >

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Post #: 6

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 1:05:11 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

I have been informed that the WEGO game cannot be played online only the REAL TIME crap can be played online. Welp that flushes this game right down the toilet with me. For years we played WEGO online and now we get shafted for real time only online? Sorry, I hear the flush in my toilet bowl and it's singing bye bye Miss American Pie lol

quote:

Quick Battles
To me this is where the wheels fall off. I knew SF didn't have a random map generator, but I didn't know you couldn't select/purchase the forces you want for the player or AI. One of four things seem to happen in QB battles, no enemy shows up on the map, units get deployed all over the map, stuck between buildings, enemies spawn on top of your forces or you get unbalanced forces. There are only 14 QB maps so you see the same map over and over again. Even when QB seems to work, you often get match ups that aren't very good. Twice in QB's, I didn't have to anything, as soon as I clicked start, my forces fired and destroyed the enemy without me doing a thing, no tactics, no movement, nothing, all I did was watch! That's one of the issues with the modern combat if you can see it you can kill it, More often than not your units will spot, fire, and kill the enemy without the player doing any thing or before you even see them. I think the maps in SF are too small for modern combat. How could something like quick battles that worked so well in the early CM games, be so poorly done in SF? There is talk about additional expansion packs to add new units and forces, but what's the point if you can't select or purchase the units you want?

More turn offs for a great series that has now turned sour. I recall this is the flare up that came with RTW as well. They dumped on all the hard core fans they had for the RTS crowd and lost the majority of their hard core fans for the kiddy click fest that RTW was. The worst ai of the series all around terrible game. It looks as if Shock Force is falling into this same catagory. But, as you see from my AAR of M2TW they came back to the hard core veterans in the sequel and perhaps that is what Battlefront will do with it's sequels after they see the uproar for this pos game.

Though I'm glad you like it Chad I wouldn't wish you any bad game play just because I and many more feel it's a terrible game. As always it's what the individual thinks about the game vs the masses. I've got games others thought were crap as well. ;)

quote:

I really think CM:SF is going to get even better with time.

Great then lets just all wait until it gets better with time and save on frustration as well as money too. ;) If its this bad out of the gate it will be on Ebay and Amazon.com shortly to get rid of it and try to salvage as much as possible out of the retail sale people paid for it before they found out they got ripped off.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 7

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 2:39:24 AM

Chad Harrison

Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I have been informed that the WEGO game cannot be played online only the REAL TIME crap can be played online. Welp that flushes this game right down the toilet with me. For years we played WEGO online and now we get shafted for real time only online? Sorry, I hear the flush in my toilet bowl and it's singing bye bye Miss American Pie lol

In its current state, from what I can tell, no, it cant be played WEGO via TCP/IP. With the uproad over this (I never play TCP/IP so its all the same to me), it its possible, they will put it in. They probably figured it wouldnt be missed all that much. Before the release of CM:SF, I didnt realise that so many others came to the CM series for the WEGO system. Now that it has been changed, its interesting to see so many people react . . . emotionally to the change

quote:

Though I'm glad you like it Chad I wouldn't wish you any bad game play just because I and many more feel it's a terrible game. As always it's what the individual thinks about the game vs the masses. I've got games others thought were crap as well. ;)

Thats the beauty of the combination of games and opinion. I still to this day fire up and beat the Silent Storm campaigns one or twice a year and love the game to death. But, it was generally not accepted well for a number of reasons. But if I personally enjoy playing it, who cares what others think about it. I personally like the new direction for the core portions of CM. I am especially excited about what this is all going to do for the upcoming WWII CMx2. But, I can easily see how many people can get worked up over these core changes, especially when the parts of the core that changed were their favorite parts of the CM series.

quote:

Great then lets just all wait until it gets better with time and save on frustration as well as money too. ;) If its this bad out of the gate it will be on Ebay and Amazon.com shortly to get rid of it and try to salvage as much as possible out of the retail sale people paid for it before they found out they got ripped off.

Like a good wine, good games get better with time. I look at where CM:SF is at release and where it could be a year from now and I get all excited about it. All the scenarios that will come out, where the AI has a thought out plan, multiple plans at that, and they are actually challenging to fight against. Instead of messed up, random QB maps that are generated randomly, we get very well thought out, and intentionally balanced and designed QB maps. Not to mention the fixes and new features that BFC will add over time.

So, come back in six months Ravinhood. Things will look much better by then :)

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 8

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 2:42:55 AM

nirvana

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/2/2005
From: Leeds, England
Status: offline

I feel a bit ripped of with this.

Turns out ATI cards in Vista are not supported (From what i can figure), so either i get a new nVidia card or sell the game.

I did borrow my wifes laptop, one which it suprisingly ran. There were several glaring game killers for me.

1. No random maps - CMBO Stayed on my PC YEARS due to random maps. SF wont last a month without them :(
2. No WeGo in TCP/IP!? i dont even begin to understand this logic. This along with no random maps and no more buying units make up the key points of the game in my years of enjoyment of the older versions.
3. No more buying units :( Again this is on of the reasons i played the CM1 Games for years.
4. Pathfinding is bad, no its not bad is frikken apalling Some of the paths taken by my men are simply mind bogglingly stupid
5. PBEM file sizes are huge! - Some files are up to 25-30Mb in size!!? Thats a lot of data to email out!
6. BuggyIt's generally pretty buggy, doesnt work at all with my nvidia card, or vista my pc came with, its not happy with my new dual core CPU, it crashes a LOT, especially when saving, which is a bummer as its 50/50 if the game will save or just crash your PC.

I only really wanted this for PBEM and Multiplayer with friends, but im afraid this is where the series dies for me, im not quite sure how they ruined the series, but they did :(

< Message edited by nirvana -- 7/31/2007 2:46:48 AM >

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 9

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 3:10:57 AM

pad152

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline

Well to be fare, No random maps was know before release but, the no buying units wasn't. They are working on a patch for ATI, Vista well that another can of worms. I've had no crashes or hangs, and can Alt_tab back and forth the desktop without issue on XP.

I find it funny that walls block LOS & LOF in Theater of War and troops stand up and get out of the way of an on comming tank/truck, but not in Shock Force where any thing can see & shoot through walls and troops just get run over by on comming tanks without injury, so much for realism!

Also in Theater of War you knew when a crew member was killed or injured and some times you had to switch the crew around to keep fighting, in Shock Force I haven't seen any effect of WIA or KIA crew and all you get a gray dot!

One thing I miss from early CM games is seeing guys surrender and taking them prisoner. This might have been used to help balance things one, we all know 1 US POW with worth 100 dead bad guys.

< Message edited by pad152 -- 7/31/2007 3:21:20 AM >

(in reply to nirvana)

Post #: 10

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 3:46:56 AM

cbelva

Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline

No, it is not broken. I was on the fence until I played the demo. After playing the demo, I went ahead and purchased. I am not sorry. I have had a lot of fun. Yes, there are some things needing to be worked out, but it is very playable and enjoyable. I can recommend the game in it current state.

By the way, the queing in WEGO is not totally broke. It needs some work. However, you can give a vehicle w/ passengers a movement order. Then give the passenger a movement order. The vehicle will then execute its movement. When the vehicle has completed it movement. The passenger will then dismount and move to its obj. If it is a machine gun, it will set up and prepare to engage. I have done this several times (all in the same turn). What is broken is giving the facing/hide order. However, it is doable and I have executed this several times with out much of a problem.

The current state reminds me of CMBO when it was released. As patches are released and people get use to the new engine, I think we will see the new engine grow up.

(in reply to nirvana)

Post #: 11

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 4:29:11 AM

Chad Harrison

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From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

No, it is not broken. I was on the fence until I played the demo. After playing the demo, I went ahead and purchased. I am not sorry. I have had a lot of fun. Yes, there are some things needing to be worked out, but it is very playable and enjoyable. I can recommend the game in it current state.

. . .

The current state reminds me of CMBO when it was released. As patches are released and people get use to the new engine, I think we will see the new engine grow up.

That sums up in far less words what I have been trying to say.

(in reply to cbelva)

Post #: 12

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 5:00:55 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

No, it is not broken. I was on the fence until I played the demo. After playing the demo, I went ahead and purchased. I am not sorry. I have had a lot of fun. Yes, there are some things needing to be worked out, but it is very playable and enjoyable. I can recommend the game in it current state.

By the way, the queing in WEGO is not totally broke. It needs some work. However, you can give a vehicle w/ passengers a movement order. Then give the passenger a movement order. The vehicle will then execute its movement. When the vehicle has completed it movement. The passenger will then dismount and move to its obj. If it is a machine gun, it will set up and prepare to engage. I have done this several times (all in the same turn). What is broken is giving the facing/hide order. However, it is doable and I have executed this several times with out much of a problem.

The current state reminds me of CMBO when it was released. As patches are released and people get use to the new engine, I think we will see the new engine grow up.

Fraid over 900 support posts say differently that it's broken. I go by the facts not by fanboism.

quote:

5. PBEM file sizes are huge! - Some files are up to 25-30Mb in size!!? Thats a lot of data to email out!

Holy toledo 25-30mb PBEM files? You are kidding right? That's the first I've heard of such rediculous size files fo PBEM. Sounds like it's loading the damn graphics engine as well as the small stats file in the email. Or this could be MAPS since maps no longer can be quickly made like the great CMx games of the past. Nope I agree this no random maps and having to rely on other people to make maps is just LAZY programming on Battlefronts part.

But, ole Steve said we wouldn't ever get CMx1 type games again where they had "LONGEVITY", these are MODULES so you can think of them as QUICK GAMES, but, hardly any quick and fun random battles of CHOOSEUP like the good ole CMx games of before.

These are $50 boxed wargames is the way to look at them, just small portions so they can MILK money for each module they put out. It's like HPS has been doing for years, now Battlefront has jumped on the wagon. Pretty much like most Matrixgames as well if you notice games like BIN, BII, Korsun Pocket, CAW, and most of the rest have a few choice scenarios with no random map or buy point system to keep them alive for years to come. They don't want you to play the same game for years to come they want you to buy NEW ones and keep feeding them. ;) Of course the Campaign series now has a random map/battle generator and I think all games should have this feature. It's another reason I never cared for the Close Combat series as well as it being an rts game.

Also @Chad I doubt I would get this game 6 months from now if it was $5. I just don't care for modern day combat most especially hypothetical never happened so don't really know what's valid or not. It's SCI-FI to me and well it will be hard to beat X-Com in the Sci-Fi department for many years to come. Graphics do not sell me on a game as much as the fun value and something I would enjoy. I read and see too many flaw and bug reports with this one out of the box. It's sorta like CIV IV when it came out, it was a catastrophe for many people with certain video cards. Good for some, bad for others. Always seems ATI card holders get the raw end when it comes to new games today. hehe I have Nvidia so I rarely have graphic issues, but, I have had some. Namely with JoWood games of the past. I can't even play Silent Storm Gold.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 7/31/2007 5:14:11 AM >

(in reply to cbelva)

Post #: 13

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 10:34:01 AM

JudgeDredd

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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

No, it is not broken. I was on the fence until I played the demo. After playing the demo, I went ahead and purchased. I am not sorry. I have had a lot of fun. Yes, there are some things needing to be worked out, but it is very playable and enjoyable. I can recommend the game in it current state.

I'm sorry to disagree and I'm sure I won't change your mind, but it is broken. It's a fun game and I do hope they bring it up to par, but as a tactical strategy game at present, it's broken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva
By the way, the queing in WEGO is not totally broke. It needs some work. However, you can give a vehicle w/ passengers a movement order. Then give the passenger a movement order. The vehicle will then execute its movement. When the vehicle has completed it movement. The passenger will then dismount and move to its obj. If it is a machine gun, it will set up and prepare to engage. I have done this several times (all in the same turn). What is broken is giving the facing/hide order. However, it is doable and I have executed this several times with out much of a problem.

Again, apologies. But it is totally broke. You might have found a way around it but that's a very specific scenario you describe there. In general, you have no idea what's going to happen when giving orders...but if you don't believe me, you can try this

Order a unit to board an AFV
Give the AFV orders to move to a location and press the P key to pause it's movement...for however long you like...it doesn't matter...just to give the squad time to get on the AFV
Then play....watch in complete amazement as your squad don't bother to board the AFV, but start moving to the location you told the AFV to go to!! Even if this is across open ground under fire!

I'd say the command system is porked.

Also, whilst your MG squad is in an AFV, give them a command to dismount, deploy, face and target area...all the things you want that team to do when dismounting. As it is, at least in WEGO, they get out and are sitting ducks...and you have to give a different order every 60 seconds. So getting them to deploy the gun takes 60....whilst they deploy they do bugger all.....you then have to wait until the next 60 seconds pulse before you can give them a target area command!

And why oh why oh why can I not give a Face command without canceling my target area command. Or why can I not give a target area command without canceling my face command? In order to make sure my troops are facing the correct way AND targeting an area, I have to give a face command and wait 60 seconds (the facing only takes 5 seconds!) and only AFTER the first 60 seconds, can I give a target area command! In fact if you give a target area command, the Face command is disabled....why?

The game is broke in WEGO.

_____________________________

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(in reply to cbelva)

Post #: 14

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 11:07:19 AM

JudgeDredd

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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
...They don't want you to play the same game for years to come they want you to buy NEW ones and keep feeding them.

A games company, any games company, wants you to play their latest game. No one wants to sell something and not get the sales they hoped purely because people are enjoying the original for so long and with modded content. Now it's debatable whether or not it's good business sense or not for companies to restrict moddability...but that's not for debate here.

ravinhood just watch where you are going with your posts m8. You're sliding off topic. And brandishing the fanboi accusations and suggesting clickfests are for kids. Just because someone is enjoying the game, does not make him a fanboi. And if he's playing it in RTS mode, then it doesn't make him a kiddie. It may be a clickfest to you because you're so old. I personally don't like RTS for the same reason...I just can't keep up and I think it destroys the tactical edge. But I find your comment directed at players who enjoy RTS as insulting. If they want to play RTS let them play. For someone who insists on live and let live, you don't show much willing.

This topic is about how good or bad the game is, not one persons personal vendetta against the big bad world of commerce.

The game is pretty broken as is. I am hoping they pull something special out the bag. I don't think it'll be in the first or second patch, simply because there is a lot of screaming about features that they may have to rush in....but we'll see. I think especially galling is the WEGO doesn't work as hoped. It is way too high maintenance.

I personally wouldn't recommend anyone buy the game yet. Just my opinion, and anyone and everyone is entitled to differ and retorte.

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(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 15

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 5:51:52 PM

dinsdale

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And that's the problem with trying to release two games in one. I don't recall it ever working out, games which try to be strategic and tactical, and this strange new mongrel: real time and turn based.

They should have picked a style of play, focussed on getting it working and out the door.

Would also have been a good idea to get a beta tester with Vista and ATI.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 16

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 6:20:06 PM

milkweg

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I've only played the demo briefly but see no commnds for hull down position, cease fire to conserve ammo and command to select which weapon to use. These seem like fundamental commands that should be in a game like this. Looks to me like there are no such commands and the AI is not good enough to handle these options.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 17

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 7/31/2007 11:18:02 PM

Chad Harrison

Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: milkweg

I've only played the demo briefly but see no commnds for hull down position, cease fire to conserve ammo and command to select which weapon to use. These seem like fundamental commands that should be in a game like this. Looks to me like there are no such commands and the AI is not good enough to handle these options.

The hull down commands from CMx1 are not in, atlast I cant find them if they are. To have a unit 'cease fire', cancel all player defined targets, and either have them 'hide' or set a target arc that does not cover any known units. None of the CM's have ever had control over which weapon was fired, outside of a tanks option to 'fire main gun' in CMx1. The game usually is pretty good about selecting the appropriate weapons to fire dependent on range and target type.

But yes, the AI does need some love for future patches.

(in reply to milkweg)

Post #: 18

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 12:00:37 AM

ravinhood

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Heh right now that ain't all that needs some lovin. Have you visited the Battlefront forums lately? Lol Steve and Moon are getting it front and back and from both sides. Course Steve comes out a blastin calling all who say anything against the game childish and teenagers. lol He's as bad as me with kiddy clickfest rts games. lol They have really got to fix that issue of having to wait 60 seconds per movement from a vehicle into position. That's just rather rediculous when in CMx1 they did it all with one click of the mouse, dismounted, ran to position, went into a combat stance and proceeded to attack all within 60 seconds or less in one go.

I often wonder why developers must change something that is working. Why they've got to add or take away that element that makes the game so different from the last. Why they end up ruining more than fixing or bringing new to the table. It's like the Total War series, they could have made game after game with the MTW engine and I would have been elated. But, noooooooooooooooooooooooo they've got to muck with it and turn it into a kiddy clickfest type of game....why? Why must developers muck with what is popular and works and sells well already?

(in reply to Chad Harrison)

Post #: 19

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 12:27:08 AM

pad152

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I keep being suprised on what was left out.

1. No Hold Fire Command, hide doesn't always work.
2. No Shoot and Scoot.
3. No Hull Down.

The AI, I think is being left up to the user(Scenario Designer), remember if the AI doesn't do anying it's now the fault of the Scenario Designer (AKA User).

I think trying to create a game that works well in both RT and turn based was just too much. No one else has done it, seems for good reason. I'm was really suprised to hear Madmatt had nothing to do with mission creation!

Remember it's now the users fault, you gamers asked for it (PBM play, Wego, etc.)

Go Read the thread "Why Gamers are Whiners" It's not BattleFront's Fault, you guys asked for it!!!

Ok, fess up, who asked for it to not work with ATI cards?

< Message edited by pad152 -- 8/1/2007 1:37:10 AM >

(in reply to Chad Harrison)

Post #: 20

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 3:57:33 AM

Chad Harrison

Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
Go Read the thread "Why Gamers are Whiners" It's not BattleFront's Fault, you guys asked for it!!!

I agree with him on that one though. A few years ago, they said that they were not sure that they could get PBEM to work with the new code. Everyone freaked out (myself included) and said if PBEM was not in the game, they would go hang themselves or somefink. So they said that they would get PBEM in, but the file sizes might be really big.

So the game comes out and guess what, the file sizes are really big

I like Dev's who have human emotions. Its fun to watch them argue with people on forums.

Honestly I dont go to the forums right now, Im too busy playing and enjoying the game. Why go to the forums and argue with people about your game when you could just be playing it?

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 21

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 4:19:09 AM

Joram

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Thanks for the discussion, I don't think I will be getting this now. I was a huge fan of the series but everything that people say is wrong is critical to me (well, except the PBEM).

(in reply to Chad Harrison)

Post #: 22

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 10:28:29 AM

JudgeDredd

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From: Scotland
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Joram

I would give it another look after a couple patches. It's got great potential. The region. The scale. The era. They all fit and work. There are just some fundamental flaws that need addressing.

I hope they do address them. I'll be keeping my eye on it. As I said, the game is enjoyable...just frustrating when played for too long!

I've got other things to do though, so I can wait on the patch.

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Post #: 23

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 7:54:19 PM

Joram

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True enough, I have other things to do as well. I can wait awhile until it's been shored up. Or it hits the bargain bin. :)

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 24

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/1/2007 8:16:25 PM

oi_you_nutter

Posts: 418
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i first installed CM:SF on my Vista, dual core with Ati X1300 puter... it crashed and burned, so it was unlicensed and installed on the XP puter with an Athlon XP and nvidia 6600GT where it runs without a hitch

overall it doesnt feel as polished as the CM1 games, the camera controls annoy me... and giving commands is different enough, compared to the other CM titles, to be annoying when in RTS mode

with a few tweaks and some more units, it will be much improved. battlefront have been great in the past and i am sure they wont let us down but for the meantime i am waiting for a patch or two...

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 25

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/2/2007 1:11:20 AM

pad152

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Have you seen the TOEE, in the editor. There is no company level infantry, no on map mortars, AKA Theatre of War. All of the early CM1 games had such a complete and exellent selection of units, in the editor if you want to add a infantry company, you have to purchase a Battalion and then delete the all of units you don't want.

Last Night I tried out the editor, I gave the Syrians some mine fields, so I could try out the Engineers, mine fields are completly invisible which I like, when one of your units hits one it goes boom but, you get no feed back on what happened, did it get hit buy enemy fire, or hit a mine, so I send out some engineers that can't find the mine field because the mark mines command doesn't work and mines remain invisible, huh!

I feel like I'm the victum of some internet scam where instead of getting Shock Force from BattleFront.com, I got Sholck Farce from BattleCrapper.Com.

The game isn't broken, it's 6 or 8 months from being finished, with another 3 or 4 months of spit and polish required. Maybe a year from now the game will be something, but now it's just the biggest dispointment of the year.

(in reply to oi_you_nutter)

Post #: 26

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/2/2007 1:27:03 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

I feel like I'm the victum of some internet scam where instead of getting Shock Force from BattleFront.com, I got Sholck Farce from BattleCrapper.Com.

I love that line, I must use it as a sig. ;)

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 27

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/2/2007 1:49:05 AM

nirvana

Posts: 39
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From: Leeds, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Have you seen the TOEE, in the editor. There is no company level infantry, no on map mortars, AKA Theatre of War. All of the early CM1 games had such a complete and exellent selection of units, in the editor if you want to add a infantry company, you have to purchase a Battalion and then delete the all of units you don't want.

Last Night I tried out the editor, I gave the Syrians some mine fields, so I could try out the Engineers, mine fields are completly invisible which I like, when one of your units hits one it goes boom but, you get no feed back on what happened, did it get hit buy enemy fire, or hit a mine, so I send out some engineers that can't find the mine field because the mark mines command doesn't work and mines remain invisible, huh!

I feel like I'm the victum of some internet scam where instead of getting Shock Force from BattleFront.com, I got Sholck Farce from BattleCrapper.Com.

The game isn't broken, it's 6 or 8 months from being finished, with another 3 or 4 months of spit and polish required. Maybe a year from now the game will be something, but now it's just the biggest dispointment of the year.

Totally agree with you.

Im no Grog, admittedly i own about 30 wargames i plan a LOT, although it has to be said i pretty much suck at most!! And when I think this is CM :Dumbed Down something is wrong.

After 3-4 days playing i cant really think of any redeeming points, the biggest annoyance now is the fact there is no AI really, its all really scripted into the scenario, so if you do something unexpected and break the script, the AI just..well STOPS - DOES NOTHING!

Overall i feel as other posted do, a little scammed at how appalling this game is.

This screen, may have been posted before, but sums up the AI and pathfinding in this game, or rather the total lack of AI or pathfinding. Unless the Americans have come up with a snazzy new formation i have missed!

< Message edited by nirvana -- 8/2/2007 1:51:54 AM >

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 28

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/2/2007 10:21:16 AM

JudgeDredd

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Well I would look at that pic and say I have no idea where that came from. You can do great things with computers and pictures....you can do even more with a game editor. The problem with posting pictures like that, as I said, is no-one really has any idea where it came from, and when people see it, they scream "OMG that is so fricking lame" when in fact it may well not be anything to do with the AI and more to do with someones creativity.

With that said, if it truly was the game AI then it's atrocious. You said you've been playing it for 4 days....have you noticed anything like that, 'cos I haven't.

I'm not sticking up for the game. As it stands it's a mess, but I'm not going to look at a picture and condemn it. I can condemn it quite easily by the gameplay I've had experience of, as I'm sure you can.

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(in reply to nirvana)

Post #: 29

RE: CM:SF Full Version/Demo Impressions - 8/2/2007 2:19:05 PM

nirvana

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From: Leeds, England
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That pic came from the Eurogamer review of CMSF, the only explanation give for it was that apparently its possible to break the AI so it just, well spazzes out.

Its what happened when he broke a scenario by doin something weird :o

Full review here http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=80542

< Message edited by nirvana -- 8/2/2007 2:21:42 PM >

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Post #: 30