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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> ottoman empire rail points

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ottoman empire rail points - 8/5/2007 7:39:33 AM

randell765

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I have the OE, and they start off with no rail points, I have been moving them one square at a time, is this correct?

Also, should the OE start off the war with minimal productivity,very little manpower and very little food, Is this normal?

Post #: 1

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/5/2007 8:19:56 AM

FrankHunter

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The Ottoman's were not quite what you'd call perfectly ready for the war. It takes them awhile to hit their stride, such as it is.

(in reply to randell765)

Post #: 2

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/5/2007 8:52:26 PM

JD Walter

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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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Hi randell765,

The Ottomans will get (iirc) 10 rail points in the second strategic phase following their entry.

This is enough to transfer 2 corps to/from Contstantinople per turn.

They will get (on average) 1 industrial point ("finished good") per strat phase for the first year, slowly increasing to 2-3. Recommend you save them for an HQ Refit (offensive point) or commit it to naval assets (to contest British control of the Eastern Med with A-H, and damage any amphibious operations the TE may attempt in that part of the world).

(in reply to randell765)

Post #: 3

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/5/2007 9:03:21 PM

EUBanana

Posts: 4552
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From: Little England
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You can get the Ottomans really rolling if you transfer finished goods from Germany to the OE.

Seems only fair given the usual transfer of raw materials from the OE to Germany.

There is a good point to an early-ish offensive against the Ottomans - its the Central Powers' big resource farm, so if you can conquer it the CP's industrial power will nosedive in very short order.

_____________________________

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 4

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/6/2007 12:26:01 AM

SMK-at-work

Posts: 3396
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From: New Zealand
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Jeez you have to be joking about spending their points on naval or HQ - you start with 4 HQ points, and no troop reserves. your units are very fragile, and you'd bette build up your equipment reserves ASAP of you'er going to have no army left if the Rusians put their mind to it!!

(in reply to EUBanana)

Post #: 5

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/6/2007 7:01:43 PM

JD Walter

Posts: 235
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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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Hi SMK,

quote:

Jeez you have to be joking about spending their points on naval or HQ - you start with 4 HQ points, and no troop reserves.

Not at all.

At least in my current game (Jan-Feb 1915, 1914 campaign), the Ottomans start with no HQ Refits. It is useful to build at least one, to retake Constantinople if necessary.

Note: I discount the initial two HQ's, because they lose theirs as exhaustion is reached. For the Ottomans, this occurs relatively quickly. I have found you need one refit "in reserve", in the general strategic pool unassigned, to keep the TE honest if it takes Constantinople or Ankara. (Either that, or a German/AH HQ in the Balkans with sufficient railcap to strat move there when the time comes.)

The Ottomans have sufficient corps to protect Constantinople and the Caucasus Front. They should rail one corps to each of Basra and the Suez border. If they see a TE buidup there, they are better off (imho) trading space for time and fighting a delaying action up the Arabian Peninsula, forcing the TE to burn valuable offensive points of their own.

The "C" class corps the Ottomans get are nearly worthless on attack. It is not worthwhile replacing those losses.

The Ottomans will need arms, but only sufficient to replace their expected losses in the class A & B corps. They need to buy trenches, then entrench around Constantinople, and in Gallipoli, Basra, Yerevan & Suez (5-8 hexes) to the maximum level possible. This will cost 2-3 IP's. Arms can wait until this is done; 14-21 arms are generally sufficient to start, with one IP per year after that to replenish.

If you spend 2-3 IP's on naval assets, you can maintain the Ottoman fleet on patrol in the Eastern Med. Together with the A-H navy, this force can seriously damage a TE fleet trying set up an amphibious operation in this area. Since the TE must maintain 4-5 TR's on a sea supply mission to provide adequate supply past the port, there is a great deal at risk for the TE player if a CP raiding mission gets through. The Ottoman/A-H navy can greatly impede this buildup and pose a credible threat, one which the TE player must eliminate before he can operate freely in the area.

One of my opponents found this out the hard way at Scutari. He successfully invaded the port and dropped 3 corps + a HQ (which subsequently moved inland two hexes). In the following strategic phase I sortied with everthing in the A-H & Ottoman inventory, putting both missions on "Raid". Between them they sunk 3 TR's & damaged 2 others, lowering the supply rate in the expeditionary force's hex to 25%, and putting the hexes in front of it OOS. He could only move back to Salonika for the next 4 impulses, basically rendering those corps ineffective and of no consequence. By the time he eliminated the CP navy and rectified the TR situation, it was 2 strategic turns later, and Scutari was of no consequence; I had reinforced & entrenched the area sufficiently to make it too expensive to attack along that front.

I see the Ottoman position as analagous to that of the Axis player in Anzio. The flanks are exposed, making any "line" held temporary. The true limitation is on the Allied sealift capacity. If the Ottomans can delay or disrupt that (by contesting the sea zone and endangering the Allied TR's there), they are buying time for the Germans to settle the war in France and/or Russia.

Unfortunately, the Ottomans will not be able to hold off a concerted effort by the TE. Their troop quality is too inferior. The best strategy (once again, imho) is to keep the TE from landing in the first place for as long as possible, then reacting best as possible to restrict the beachhead and force the TE player to spend as many offensive points as one can to move anywhere useful.

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 8/6/2007 7:42:08 PM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 6

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/6/2007 8:31:03 PM

hjaco

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Deploying a couple good German corps to trouble zones to counterattack is also a worthwhile investment for CP. Especially given the importance of the OE resource hexes.

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 7

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/7/2007 12:45:27 AM

SMK-at-work

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You discount the 2 initial HQ's??� Why - those are the 4 points they get - and they need to be carefully husbanded IMO.� Certainly the Ottomans are not good fighters - their low class corps are poor and you're right they aren't worth rebuilding....except that you don't have anything else - if you're doign all your fighting with yuor handful of A and B class ones then they won't exist by mid 1915 and all you'll have left is the C's.

15-20 replacements will disappear in the first move of one good push.

mostly the Russians dont' attack much in the Caucassus tho....but if someone does then you can kiss the OE goodby in very short order - the OE will collapse long before the Russians get anywhere near Suez for example - and the Indian troops plus the intitial leader will be enough to take Jerusalem or Baghdad without any need for further TE amphibious efforts, and either of those plus a Russian push in the Caucasus as far as Sinope will be enough to see the OE leave the war.

The Austrian and OE fleets will be shattered the first time they have an encounter with the TE fleet, and they'll never get rebuilt.

A couple of German corps can be a major bolster to the OE troops - even C class Germans aer better than A class Turks I think, but it's also a matter of whether you can afford to move them from more active fronts - if the Italians and French are still in the game then the CP can be facing a fairly serious shortage of units.

Perhaps when the patch is out we can test our respective theories??!!

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 8/7/2007 4:33:48 AM >

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 8

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 3:48:04 AM

JD Walter

Posts: 235
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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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Hi SMK,

quote:

You discount the 2 initial HQ's?? Why -

Explained above. The initial 4 OE's HQ points will either be used or lost when their national will deteriorates. You will need a fifth HQ refit point "in reserve" for a "last gasp" effort at Constantinople or Ankara, should they fall, to keep the OE in the war one strat phase longer.

(Or have an alternative plan in place, like the deployment of a German army group + HQ to the theatre, rail connections permitting.)

quote:

15-20 replacements will disappear in the first move of one good push.

Yes, they will.
a) That is why committing one of the first year IP's is just a start. You will need to increase arms and stockpile them, once enough naval points are built. And...
b) Eliminating that number of OE strength points will require a substantial investment of capital (IP's) and resources (corps) by the TE player to the region to accomplish. (The OE should never engage in a stand-up fight against the TE except at Constantinople or Ankara; employ one corps per hex on defense as a "speed bump", to force expenditure of HQ points by the TE to attack; retreat each turn up the coast on Ankara or the capitol.) If the TE commits that amount of force, I would say I have already accomplished my objective in having these forces unavailable on the axis of my own offensives as the Germans (France/Russia) or Austro-Hungarians (Russia/Italy).

quote:

...will be enough to see the OE leave the war.

Agreed.

The OE will not survive the war. It is only a question of how many resources and IP's the TE has to commit to eliminate them, and whether that committment allows the Germans a sufficient enough opportunity to conquer France, Italy and/or Russia (perhaps with a chemical warfare advantage, or stosstruppen).

quote:

The Austrian and OE fleets will be shattered the first time they have an encounter with the TE fleet, and they'll never get rebuilt.

Agreed.

They are a one-shot deal, a "kamikaze" force. Their only purpose is to damage and/or sink TE vessels in the Eastern Med.

For this reason, you only need build 6-12 naval assets for the OE, and 12-18 for the A-H (enough to sortie once, with a reserve pool to repair light damage and/or try again if the Raiding mission fails to engage the first naval phase).

quote:

A couple of German corps can be a major bolster to the OE troops

Agreed, if you can transfer them there.

There are many things a wily TE player can do to delay, or outright prevent, this. A conquest of Serbia and/or Rumania is a necessary precondition of a deployment of German corps to the OE; also, Germany must be able to spare the corps from the French and/or Russian front(s). This is by no means certain against an experienced TE player.

For this reason (or, at least, while accomplishing it), you will need to prepare for contingencies. I have seen TE players immediately deploy 4 TR's to the Eastern Med, to amphib to take Constantinople, in 1914. The OE stands a good chance of reducing two levels in Will should this occur, eliminating both the points in their HQ's, and leaving them with no ability to counterattack. (I consider it better to commit all available adjacent OE corps to an attack at Constantinople/Ankara before they surrender - they will be lost in this case anyway).

quote:

Perhaps when the patch is out we can test our respective theories??!!

Appreciate the offer, Good Sir! Unfortunately, I am already committed to two PBEM games when Frank releases the patch, and that's my limit! (Plus I've got C:EAW to play with them, as well! Too many good games from Matrix this quarter!). But I will keep it in mine should one of my games end early (or, better yet, I even manage to win!)

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 8/8/2007 4:13:32 AM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 9

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 3:57:56 AM

SMK-at-work

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You don't lose HQ points when your country becomes exhausted - i don't follow your reasoning here sorry - you have 4 HQ points, and you will retain them unless you use them....

Eliminating that number of OE combat strength points can be done in 2 combats, using 1 activation point. Have you ever tried it??!!

You really should trust me on this

The Russians so not have to spend vast resources to inflict major losses on the Turks....they just have to decide to actually atack them, which is a big decisions since AH and Germany beckon.........but if and once that is done and a couple of HQ's devoted to the task the Turks are in trouble.

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 10

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 4:20:15 AM

JD Walter

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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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Hi SMK,

quote:

You don't lose HQ points when your country becomes exhausted - i don't follow your reasoning here sorry - you have 4 HQ points, and you will retain them unless you use them....

quote:

14.0 National Morale and Exhaustion
...Also, when a nation reaches level one Exhaustion, all of its HQs lose one offensive point and all of its corps lose one level of quality. This is repeated at level two and three...

So you're saying that the manual is incorrect in this statement?

I have not independently verified this; in my one completed PBEM game so far, I was able to force Russia to capitulate before the OE itself devalued. I did not think at the time to ask my opponent whether he had observed this happen to his Russian HQ's.

Thanks for your insights and or experience on this important point! It would certainly change my thoughts on this item of my strategy...

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 8/8/2007 4:23:30 AM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 11

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 4:31:30 AM

JD Walter

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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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quote:

Eliminating that number of OE combat strength points can be done in 2 combats, using 1 activation point. Have you ever tried it??!!

I have only played one game competitively, and that as the CP.

My strategy as the OE is to run whenever I see any stack of TE corps appear adjacent to mine. Since VP locations may only be occupied through the expenditure of a TE HQ offensive point, I have accomplished my objective and I retreat in order to prevent any combat or losses.

I generally also only defend with a "picket line" in every other hex, limiting the TE to two hexes of frontage on any corps. Their cavalry cannot infiltrate over rough terrain, and in Arabia, I am in strategic retreat anyway. The only place I will defend is Constantinople & Ankara.

I also usually pull back two hexes after contact. That way, the TE must either spend an offensive point to do nothing but pursue, or deploy cavalry to reece. If I only see one TE unit show up adjacent to mine, I know the stack is coming; I use that information to pull back and keep a two-hex distance.

Eventually you run out of room, but frequently you can force the TE into a costly expenditure of HQ activations for minimal return, which are better committed & spent elsewhere - the whole objective of the exercise.

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 8/8/2007 4:37:02 AM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 12

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 4:38:25 AM

SMK-at-work

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That's news to me - thanks for pointing it out!!

However if the Ottomans ever get exhausted you won't want to be launching offensives with them!! :)

AFAIK cavalry can advance in mountainous terrain - i'm sure mine do it routinely over the Carpathians as the Russians, or in Serbia as AH....I'd have to check.

A single Ottoman corps can be destroyed in 1 attack by 3 Russian ones....they really are REALLY weak.

IMO the Ottomans will collapse before any TE forces get near ankara, but it does still take some effort on behalf of the TE to take the outlying areas.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 8/8/2007 4:39:30 AM >

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 13

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 5:04:01 AM

JD Walter

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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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Hi SMK,

Thanks for your reply! I greatly appreciate your wisdom and insight into the game; it's given me much food for thought on my strategy

quote:

However if the Ottomans ever get exhausted you won't want to be launching offensives with them!! :)

Agreed. The "C" class corps are nearly worthless; "D" class corps exist only as placeholders. I would consider disbanding them to re-establish manpower/armaments pools for superior quality corps, if any are left.

quote:

AFAIK cavalry can advance in mountainous terrain - i'm sure mine do it routinely over the Carpathians as the Russians, or in Serbia as AH....I'd have to check.

Please do. 21.0, Movement (pgs. 28-29) says they can't, but I've never thought to try it - I just took the rules' word on it.

quote:

A single Ottoman corps can be destroyed in 1 attack by 3 Russian ones....they really are REALLY weak.

Yes. I just get out of the way when I see the TE coming. Even 2 Russian or British corps can defeat an entrenched OE one. (Trench level 1, admittedly.)

A tricky TE player may try to take advantage of this by advancing with nothing but cavalry, sending the rest of his corps home (or at least someplace where there's actual fighting). For this reason, I will sometimes sacrifice a "C" level corps on an "attack", moving forward back into a friendly hex I think the TE player is going to cav reece. I will then spend one rail cap in the next turn to have the unit attempt to strat move 2+ hexes away again. Doesn't always work; sometimes the corps gets caught by an offensive. But it's burnt a TE activation point off for one nearly-worthless OE unit. If anything survives, I will usually disband it to reclaim the arms and manpower, rather than commit valuble refit points to anything other than an "A" or "B" quality corps.

quote:

IMO the Ottomans will collapse before any TE forces get near ankara, but it does still take some effort on behalf of the TE to take the outlying areas.

Agreed - that's been my experience too. (Well, all one PBEM game of it

).

I will defend Ankara only if they get there...And, if they spend that much time and energy travelling to it, once again my strategy has already achieved my purpose

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 14

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/8/2007 9:52:15 AM

hjaco

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Hi guys,

Interesting discussion with some nice points.

Regarding screening TE southern advance remember to use your cavalry unit. If attacked by infantry it will simply withdraw without penalty. If attacked by the British cavalry, well, if there is one fight OE shouldn't mind, it would be an even match cavalry unit against cavalry unit.

Be flexible though and occasionally defend with good infantry and if TE get's really careless deploy for a counterattack i.e. the cavalry should be directly before your counterattack units, so you know, what to expect. It would be embarrassing counterattacking a full stack of British Infantry

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 15

RE: ottoman empire rail points - 8/9/2007 7:55:52 PM

JD Walter

Posts: 235
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From: Out of the Silent Planet
Status: offline

quote:

Regarding screening TE southern advance remember to use your cavalry unit. If attacked by infantry it will simply withdraw without penalty. If attacked by the British cavalry, well, if there is one fight OE shouldn't mind, it would be an even match cavalry unit against cavalry unit.

Great idea, hjaco! Hadn't even thought of that...

quote:

Be flexible though and occasionally defend with good infantry and if TE get's really careless deploy for a counterattack i.e. the cavalry should be directly before your counterattack units, so you know, what to expect. It would be embarrassing counterattacking a full stack of British Infantry

Which (sigh) yours truly has done more than once ...