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Couple of Questions - 8/12/2007 6:25:44 AM

seaforth7

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Great game, really enjoying it but I have a couple of questions that hopefully someone might have an answer on.

1. I've seen naval battles with a squadron I have sent out to patrol but some ships are missing from the squadron? Anyone run into this before?

2. I've had problems with certain corps moving when under fire. I've lost the BEF because they don't take the fall back move I had ordered but instead stand and take the German attack. Does anyone know if units moves are halted in some circumstances? If so what circumstances? I've seen other units retire under fire fine.

3. Is there a way to change ship orders without returning them to base?

thanks

Post #: 1

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/12/2007 9:04:11 AM

hjaco

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Hi Seaforth7,

1) When you design a squadron it does not mean that they will constitute a single mass of ships at any time.

I have no clue as to what parameters naval combat occurs at but it seems that ships in a sea area can engage each other at random. Speed and mission will certainly have influence on this.

Each single capital "ship" represents a squadron of ships in itself. So when you send out 1 dreadnought you in reality send out several dreadnoughts although it only counts as one ship for game purposes.

2) See my thread about movement http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1535157

So if the enemy is caring out the attack order before your units, then their movement order is halted and they engage in combat at their original hex.

3) Nope

Anytime

(in reply to seaforth7)

Post #: 2

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/12/2007 9:08:24 AM

hjaco

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Oh i forgot.

About 2) - this means that if you are really anxious about getting away before being attacked, you must sacrifice an activation of your units. And even then there are no guaranties......

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Post #: 3

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/12/2007 7:19:17 PM

seaforth7

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Hi Hjaco,
thanks for the response, answer to number 2 is important to know, much appreciated!

Got one other that came up last night. Trying to understand what can cause an attack to fail.

I had 47 Russian infantry and 3 Russian cavalry attack an Austrian stack containing 13 infantry, fire power ended up being 50 vs 19. The Austrians were in a town hex. Result of the attack was a failure although I inflicted 13 losses and 9 readiness vs 6 losses and 1 readiness on me. From reading the manual seems like that should have been a successful assault, does the terrain the defender is in play a significant impact on the combat result?

thanks again!

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 4

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/12/2007 10:06:06 PM

hjaco

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If i understand you correct the defenders were completely wiped out ?

In that case it was most certainly a city hex with a permanent fortification you attacked. Unless that fortification level is reduced to zero during combat you will be defeated defender or no defender.

This represents heroic resistance by the garrison in the permanent fortress.

If you occupy the hex in a later impulse you will automatically take the hex and the permanent fortification will be permanently destroyed.

The only other way to reduce a fortification is to use siege artillery (surprising *s*) which only AH and Germany begins with.
Each siege artillery has a 33 % chance of knocking out the fortification completely or else reduce it one level. Although not documented in the manual i have made the experience that using an observer on the hex increases your odds.

Try for instances to attack Belgium with Germany and NOT using the siege artillery to see this in effect.

(in reply to seaforth7)

Post #: 5

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 12:54:28 AM

seaforth7

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that will be it, fortifications not reduced, thanks Hjaco, much appreciated

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Post #: 6

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 6:18:05 PM

JD Walter

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From: Out of the Silent Planet
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Hi seaforth7,

quote:

2. I've had problems with certain corps moving when under fire. I've lost the BEF because they don't take the fall back move I had ordered but instead stand and take the German attack. Does anyone know if units moves are halted in some circumstances? If so what circumstances? I've seen other units retire under fire fine.

From what I can observe, the game moves units according to readiness loss, much like SPI's earlier Hof Gap system (movement as a function of attrition).

If an enemy unit enters your hex on attack, it can cancel movement to and from your hex. This appears to be based on some type of initiative roll, which is apparently random. (I.E., there is a chance your initiative may exceed the enemy's, and your unit will leave the hex first. But not always, and not if your readiness is less than your opponent's.)

This makes "soak offs" an effective tactic.

You can consider the following options if you need to retire:
a) use the "withdrawal" command (if available);
b) leave a rearguard - move out all but one unit, which will defend if the hex is attacked and retreat if the combat goes against it.

quote:

1. I've seen naval battles with a squadron I have sent out to patrol but some ships are missing from the squadron? Anyone run into this before?

Naval squadrons move independently, even if they start stacked together. They can be interecepted individually as well (although this is more common on raider and anti-shipping missions than patrol).

If naval squadrons fight, they can be delayed in a sea zone, meaning some will sail on while others fall behind. Speed may be a factor in this.

quote:

3. Is there a way to change ship orders without returning them to base?

No. Orders may only be given to a squadron in port, It must first return to base before any new orders can be assigned.

(in reply to seaforth7)

Post #: 7

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 6:30:01 PM

hjaco

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Hi Def Zep,

Please see my comments further above and look at the other thread where Frank Hunter have given the correct answers :0)

You are correct about the "soak off" attacks which will kill off France in 14' unless they are prepared for exactly that.

In any case, whether you leave some of a stack as a delaying force or just wants to delay your opponent well that is one of the very many creative things your cavalry units can be used for

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 8

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 6:50:55 PM

JD Walter

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Hi hjaco,

Thanks for your comments.

I read over your thread, and still think my observations have merit. Frank only gave the following answer for determining initiative (order movement). It's somewhat cryptic, and doesn't really explain how initiative is calculated or set:

quote:

Terrain, unit type, whether on the front and whether activated determine the order, quality is not checked here.

Also, in regards to your question #8, (where I believe your intention was to ask whether initiative was set by readiness), Frank's answer appears to address whether quality affects readiness, and not the relation between readiness and initiative.

Like I said, from what I can tell, the game calculates readiness loss to determine Initiative & order of movement. Since losses are determined by where you are moving from, not to, units in rough terrain will most likely be caught in their hex and be forced to defend (having their movement cancelled) by an attack originating from lesser readiness-cost (clear or wooded) terrain.

But not always. Like seaforth7, I've seen corps successfully pull out of rough & wooded terrain hexes before they can be engaged by an enemy corps moving in. (Usually, however, when no bombardment is involved, which itself can cause a readiness loss.)

The best reason I can come up with for this is the possibility that the retreating corps:
a) start with a higher readiness than the attacking corps;
b) may lose more readiness moving from the rough terrain hex, but even so, still end up with a higher readiness than the attacker; and
c) thus get the initiative.

Perhaps if Frank or one of the devs can clarify these points, it would be most helpful. Clarification would certainly help the TE player along the Alsace-Lorraine border, and the CP in A-H! :)

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 8/13/2007 6:52:18 PM >

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 9

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 6:52:39 PM

Cyrano~

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Does attacking a corp from 2 or 3 different adjacent hexes add success and lethality to an attack or do you get the same result attacking straight up from 1 hex to another ?

I've read that some players use the back side of "rough terrain" to set up a defense so as to maximize stacking versus an opponnent (14 vs 7 or so). Does this make sense ?
Does not the benefit of defending from height and mountainous terrain offset a stacking difference ?
Does the game add a bonus for placing and firing artillery from height ?

Thanks

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 10

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 7:05:32 PM

JD Walter

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Hi Cyrano,

quote:

Does attacking a corp from 2 or 3 different adjacent hexes add success and lethality to an attack or do you get the same result attacking straight up from 1 hex to another ?

Not that I can see. The CRT adds tgether all the FP in a hex, regardless of where it originates from, and there is no "flanking" bonus stated in the rules.

quote:

I've read that some players use the back side of "rough terrain" to set up a defense so as to maximize stacking versus an opponnent (14 vs 7 or so). Does this make sense ?
Does not the benefit of defending from height and mountainous terrain offset a stacking difference ?

I was the one who came up with this idea. I've found (in practice in a PBEM game) it depends on the trench level and, thus, the year. In the early war period (1914-15), when both trench & artillery tech levels are low, the rough terrain benefit more than makes up for the lower stacking limit. So you are better off defending in the mountains themselves.

However, in later war years (1916+), where artillery tech levels, stosstruppen and tanks obviate the entrenchment level, the stacking limit becomes the decisive factor. You are better off defending one hex behind the mountains, to have more defenders in the hex than the attacker can muster. At the very least, it forces the attacker to commit two or more of his hexes to one assault, to even out the stacking advantage.

Of course, strategic factors must also be considered. For example, Germany has many industrial cities just two hexes behind the Alsace-Lorraine mountain range. It is very risky to cede hexes freely here.

quote:

Does the game add a bonus for placing and firing artillery from height ?

Unknown, but there is no bonus listed in the combat section (22.0) for it, so I would presume not.

Hope this helps!

(in reply to Cyrano~)

Post #: 11

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/13/2007 7:07:07 PM

Cyrano~

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Thanks for the quick reply.

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 12

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 12:48:19 AM

hjaco

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With regards to what terrain to make a defensive line in one major consideration is your supply level which directly affects effective readiness and therefore your combat performance.

Take the Alps - great terrain for AH to defend in or what ? Ahh not so clear cut. The Italians will stand in the clear in full supply while you defend at an inferior supply level.

(in reply to Cyrano~)

Post #: 13

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 10:21:22 AM

Cyrano~

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I have another couple of questions.

In order for Assault troops to benefit from their bonuses during an attack is it necessary for the entire stack to be composed of these Assault troops or is only one corps (per stack) needed ?
I've used one per stack with great results but it's been against late Russian troops so I can't tell what's really going on.

Also if you Barrage a enemy hex and attack in the same turn is it possible to suffer any friendly fire casualties or does the Artillery always fire first (seems to during replay) before your troops attack ?

Thanks

< Message edited by Cyrano~ -- 8/14/2007 10:25:51 AM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 10:52:10 AM

hjaco

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I have no experience in using assault troops.

But barrage takes effect before movement. If your troops have lost SP and readiness at the moment when barrage occurs, it is because the effect of the resultant combat phase already have been implemented (when attacking).

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Post #: 15

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 11:31:57 AM

FrankHunter

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The formula for determining the order of movement is as follows.

First, if being activated by an HQ add a D6 (random # from 1 to 6) per the offensive value of the HQ.
If not activated the value is 1 + d4.
Second, add the corps readiness . If the unit is cavalry, add 10.
Third, if the corps is on the front line it adds a random # from 1 to whatever the corps Readiness is.
Fourth, if the corps is moving from a friendly hex to a friendly hex add a random(Readiness) again.
Fifth, modify for terrain : Forest or Marsh means reduce by 20%. Rough means reduce by 33%. Mountains by 50%

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Post #: 16

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 11:36:37 AM

hjaco

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Thanks for the clarification Frank. Activation is really most important also on the defence.

One issue though - with the "offensive value of the HQ" i assume you mean number of unused offensive points ?

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Post #: 17

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 11:36:38 AM

FrankHunter

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quote:

In order for Assault troops to benefit from their bonuses during an attack is it necessary for the entire stack to be composed of these Assault troops or is only one corps (per stack) needed ?

One per stack works fine

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Post #: 18

RE: Couple of Questions - 8/14/2007 11:38:34 AM

FrankHunter

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