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Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 8:57:43 PM

targul

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Has anyone ever seen anyone actually land in Italy and take Rome?

I have never seen this happen in a single game. Even when playing vs Humans it just doesnt happen.

Everyone bypasses it in favor of France.

So did the Allies screw up by landing in Italy and knocking them out of the war first? Was that a waste of resources and only a delay in getting to Normandy?

Where there any lesson learned in Italy that made Normady work that would have failed without it?

Should the game make it advantageous for the Allied player to knock out Italy first?

Opinions please.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 9:20:53 PM

ozarkmichael

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Just got the game yesterday, and i am making my first post here, but i have followed the posts here for awhile.

From what i understand africa is a bit quiet for the allies in this game.

In real life though the allies had an army supported in north africa, and once the axis was driven out i imagine Sicily looked convenient.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 9:25:11 PM

Syagrius

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In my last game as the Allies I managed to land a British army in 1942 in southern Italy where they fough about a year and after there was an American army coming from France who invaded from the North, so I took Rome quite easily

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 9:25:37 PM

Major Victory

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I find the Allies simply do not have the resources necessary to attack Italy. It takes every production point for the US to just get teched up to compete with the Axis, and then by the time you build enough ground/air, you go for France.

I also think Italy(Rome) is way to easy to defend.

I think just as the Axis player finds it difficult to conduct a Uboat campaign (production wise), the Allied player finds the same issue as to fight a Stragetic bombing (Air) campaign or launch a second front in Italy

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 9:29:20 PM

Syagrius

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I have used the North African British troops to land in Italy, after they took Tobruk and Tripoli they have nothing else to do anyway.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 9:31:47 PM

Major Victory

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Syagrius

I have used the North African British troops to land in Italy, after they took Tobruk and Tripoli they have nothing else to do anyway.

My observations are based on playing a human player not AI!

It is a rare event indeed that playing against a human player that you would have troops with nothing to do.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 9:55:41 PM

Bigfish

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Their is no need to took Rom first because Italy is no thread. The germans are the problem and if you finished them you have all the time of the world to take rom - and this is quit easy.

The more i think about it i have to say taking an capital for victory is not an good idea. Why should a hole army surrender when the capital falls? Victory over an enemy should only be possible if two things happens:

1) All enemy units are destroyed (exspect of garrisons)
2) All enemy capitals are captured

When i finished up Berlin, the germans had still a huge army only one or two turns away from taking Perm. After taking Berlin the german units end up in smoke - unrealistic i think...

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 10:04:44 PM

targul

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Bigfish you are correct. It is not realistic. That is kinda my point here. Why no Italy? Was it simply an Allied error or should we need to take it out.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/17/2007 10:18:32 PM

ozarkmichael

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The OP was asking if the Allies did the right thing by invading italy. i didnt try to answer that question. So now i will try:

There was something to gain from the invasion of italy beyond the economic/strategic goals we think of in these games.

After a few years of having allied nations invaded and occupied, the Allied Political leadership saw a better gain from a relatively easy landing in an Axis homeland compared to a more difficult retaking of france. Also, there was a need to 'do something now' and italy was close at hand. Perhaps some saw italy as a chance to practice for the big landings in France later.

That easy landing in Italy did not lead to an easy advance. The fighting was very tough, as we all know. I see the attack in italy as an expensive sideshow, initiated because of its convenience, and its pyschological effect at home and upon the enemy.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/18/2007 6:25:29 AM

Happycat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ozarkmichael

The OP was asking if the Allies did the right thing by invading italy. i didnt try to answer that question. So now i will try:

There was something to gain from the invasion of italy beyond the economic/strategic goals we think of in these games.

After a few years of having allied nations invaded and occupied, the Allied Political leadership saw a better gain from a relatively easy landing in an Axis homeland compared to a more difficult retaking of france. Also, there was a need to 'do something now' and italy was close at hand. Perhaps some saw italy as a chance to practice for the big landings in France later.

That easy landing in Italy did not lead to an easy advance. The fighting was very tough, as we all know. I see the attack in italy as an expensive sideshow, initiated because of its convenience, and its pyschological effect at home and upon the enemy.

The invasion of Italy was not just in response to "a need to do something now", but rather a response to Stalin's constant pressure on Roosevelt and Churchill to create a second front, thereby presumably taking some heat off of the Red Army.

As you note, the fighting was tough, and did, I suppose contribute something to the morale of the home front. However, it took a relatively small portion of the Wehrmacht to bog the Allies down for months. It took considerable Allied resources to inch up the Italian peninsula, and really contributed nothing to speedily concluding the war.

IMO, the Allies would have done better to save the resources for D-Day. The extra divisions may well have accelerated the pace of operations in Normandy. And of course, we would have avoided the unfortunate "slapping" incident with Patton in Sicily, thus ensuring that he, instead of Omar Bradley, commanded the landing forces. I will be shocked if there are any who would postulate that Bradley was the better general. Nicer, maybe, but not better.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/18/2007 9:25:19 AM

Hard Sarge

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I think history has already shown who was the better General and who was the better PR man

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/19/2007 8:44:10 PM

IrishGuards

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Italian PP and % of Industry in 1939 have been slaughtered in the new 1.02 patch ..

Compared to original ... Means less pointy units ...
Ire was here ..

IDG

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Post #: 12

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/19/2007 9:41:52 PM

targul

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We all know you are a min/max player IDG the question on this thread is was there a need to go to Italy. If there was should that need be assimilated into the game somehow.

At present I have not seen anyone go so I am trying to determine if that is a problem or just a result of bad generalship in 43 by the Allies. If the later no need to make it more worthwhile if the former then some serious consideration should be given the area.

At present Italy. Greece and all below could be removed from the map. There is no Vichy. Africa is a dead theater. Italy is only a bunch of units who get deployed to Russia. This could mean it would be better to strech out France and Russia giving us more play room and eliminating what doesnt matter anyway. You could just augment Germany to account for the Italians that where actually deployed.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/19/2007 10:57:56 PM

IrishGuards

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The fact is in real war ...
Italian Navy got butchered .. Army in N africa and Albania .. Greece 40 ... Dismal ..

If thats all you can do with Italy as a Major Power ..
In this game ..
Thats pretty sad ... Italy has lots of potential ...
IDG

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/19/2007 11:59:44 PM

firepowerjohan

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For next patch, we are planning to increase the output from oil fields abit which puts more incentive to figth for Africa and Mid East oil plus going for Caucasus for Axis. To compensate we are increasin oil consumption abit for some unit types.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/20/2007 12:43:00 AM

ozarkmichael

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Per Happycat: "The invasion of Italy was not just in response to "a need to do something now", but rather a response to Stalin's constant pressure on Roosevelt and Churchill to create a second front, thereby presumably taking some heat off of the Red Army."

'a need to do something now' was my shorthand for the very things you said. The story of the Eastern front is huge and i didnt want to begin a discourse on that. But I stand corrected i guess. One point to you, Happycat.

Now that you have brought it up though, I would correct you about the following...

Stalin's pressure was not just to 'thereby presumeably take some heat off of the Red Army", but to involve the West in at least some measure of the terrible attrition which Russia was enduring. Remember that Stalin was very good at thinking ahead. He had plans for when the war would finally be over. Certainly he knew the west wouldnt like his future plans. How could he possibly reach for his plans if only the Soviets have been bled white? And he really thought that Roosevelt and Churchill were just being very clever to hold off and let him fight Germany all alone.

One point to me!

Happycat, you will win the match if you can remember( or find) what Stalin's opinion of the invasion of Italy was. I bet he put on a diplomatic smile and publicly wished the West good luck, but he privately thought it wasnt the right thing for the West to do.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/20/2007 1:01:19 AM

SMK-at-work

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And Churchill's preoccupation with the med. Apaprently he had a map drawn up showing Europe as a crocodile in order to persuade Roosevelt to go south, with France as the toothy head - Italy and Greece were portrayed as the belly and front legs, and he pushed how "soft" they were - which is all very well on a crocodile but pretty much drivel as far as geography goes!!

The decision did push Italy out of the war (which it won't in CEAW or any otehr game)....but it wasn't the easy option Churchill had in mind!

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/20/2007 6:35:11 AM

targul

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Point taken SMK. But if we wish to ignore Italy and south why place it in the game. Game is ahistorical anyway. It is designed for balance of a game with armor air etc so why not eliminate all of the south and make France and Russia bigger so we can play around more.

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Cant we just get along.
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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/20/2007 6:48:31 AM

SMK-at-work

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Heck I'm not suggesting that Italy and Nth Africa can be ignored - not in the least!! I don't think you can do that any more than you can ignore partisans or U-boats!!

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/24/2007 5:21:52 PM

karloskar

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Since this game so much resembles the old classic Clash of Steel (Cos) in so many things it would not hurt to resemble it a bit more. Some things it does better but more things it makes worse, on the whole i love the basic concepts of this game though. Ill post more about what I would like changed in another thread later.

In CoS Alexandria or if it was Cairo had to be conquered to win vs England (London aswell of course). Implenting this into this game would force some sort of action in the south.

Another thing is the amount of labour it takes to actually build up an allied force in Egypt. My suggestion is to drop the loophex far south at sea and instead make it possible to loop from main England to Port Zues or similar place. This should remove the unit from play for an amount of time to represent the travel and also act as penalty for the safe journey as it is not possible to attack the unit with submarines. (exactly what the existing loophole does but it is to cumbersome to do and not worth the effort as it is now)

Of course, it should still be possible to move troops via the ocean too, entering the med via the gibraltar strait, faster then the loop (at least if aiming for northwest africa) but more insecure as subs and other vessels then can attack.

Italy and germany would still have to move troops the normal way to reinforce africa and I think with this simple change they would have to do so.

Kalle

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/24/2007 6:54:46 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

and he pushed how "soft" they were - which is all very well on a crocodile but pretty much drivel as far as geography goes!!

If one limits one's thinking to geography only. It was indeed a soft underbelly in the sense of the strength of military forces deployed to protect it against invasion. However, it rapidly lost it's softness as quickly as it took the Axis to redeploy stronger forces. Which, in turn, had it's impact on the eastern front as any with knowledge of WW2 history will be well aware that Hitler canceled Citadel in response in order to redeploy the SS Panzer Corps.

Creating yet another front for the already thinly stretched Axis forces had merits of it's own. I'm not trying ot say I am a big fan of that strategic choice, but it shouldn't be ridiculed as being entirely without merit.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/24/2007 9:54:21 PM

targul

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I am not sure SMK. How many games have you played both AI and human that no one even moved in Africa. I am finding that number to be in the 90% bracket. So if people dont want it why do we need it when we could have more space to play in where everyone likes.

Personnally I like a historical game I think eveyone knows that but what I am suggesting is two fold. One this game is not even close to representing WWII. It is not there objective to do that. All they want is a balanced game with tanks air etc.
Two that representation would still give partial Italian coverage on the top but get rid of the area not being used. This might give us a better feel of the war since without a need to do Africa and Italy I believe it will continue to be ignored and disappoint people who like me who would like to see Italy before France on invasions etc.

Dont get me wrong I would much prefer there be an Italy and Africa but only if there are reasons to go there so people also want it. But without an Atlantic Wall or defensive system for France and nothing to gain in Africa I doubt players will ever even care about that territory.

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Cant we just get along.
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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/24/2007 11:40:29 PM

Vypuero

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Well against people there is usually combat in the Med. I always want it for the Oil as the Axis, or to deny that route to the Axis as the Allies, and to threaten if not attack Rome, forcing them to deploy troops.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 1:35:24 AM

targul

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Amazing even against Humans I rarely in fact only once did I see action in the Med. All other games they did not bother. Even when I am Axis they let me just kill the British troops there without sending help or trying anything.

My list shows I have played 14 games so far so with only one having any action in the Med you can see why I have the opinion. Had that only been verses AI I would have observed differently since we all know there is zero activity against the computer.

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Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 1:32:02 PM

YohanTM2

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This is REALLY not well thought out.

Anyone who has played against humans and until longer than 1942 should realize my now the oil rule, while great, underpowers Germany.

With even close to historical forces Germany runs out way too early.

quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

For next patch, we are planning to increase the output from oil fields abit which puts more incentive to figth for Africa and Mid East oil plus going for Caucasus for Axis. To compensate we are increasin oil consumption abit for some unit types.

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 1:42:01 PM

firepowerjohan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

This is REALLY not well thought out.

Anyone who has played against humans and until longer than 1942 should realize my now the oil rule, while great, underpowers Germany.

With even close to historical forces Germany runs out way too early.

quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

For next patch, we are planning to increase the output from oil fields abit which puts more incentive to figth for Africa and Mid East oil plus going for Caucasus for Axis. To compensate we are increasin oil consumption abit for some unit types.

Are we jumping to conclusions abit now ;)
We have said that Oil Fields will generate more and this also benefit Axis from Romanian Ploesti field. In fact, we made the increase in oil consumtion so that it breaks even with the Ploesti so Axis will have no less oil than currently

As for units, all units except Armour will use the same so you will in fact have more oil now in USSR unless you build alot of armour.

Armour will have +1 oil us but in a tech level so at no tech the Armour will still use 3 oil.

In total, this tweak means Axis will get more benefit from capturing enemy oil but nevertheless have no less oil than before if they fail.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 8/25/2007 1:52:57 PM >

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 1:48:45 PM

Dave Ferguson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: targul

Amazing even against Humans I rarely in fact only once did I see action in the Med.� All other games they did not bother.� Even when I am Axis they let me just kill the British troops there without sending help or trying anything.

My list shows I have played 14 games so far so with only one having any action in the Med you can see why I have the opinion.� Had that only been verses AI I would have observed differently since we all know there is zero activity against the computer.

In games i have played as the allies Egypt has always been a problem. I tried reinforcing Egypt and all it did was delay the inevitable by a few turns. The allies are way underpowered versus the Italians and even with the new shorter loop it is too difficult to reinforce. There is a problem with all those desert hexes west of Cairo, you can only repair 1 there so once the axis get beyond Alamein things get very difficult

all this means I will now treat Africa as a lost cause and fight a delaying action back into Syria.

Of course if the Persian Gulf plus loop was available it would make for a more interesting game.

Dave

(in reply to targul)

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 3:23:59 PM

Bossy573

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

In games i have played as the allies Egypt has always been a problem.

Tough to model what actually happened there. I think the Italians outnumbered the British like 10 to 1 in 1940, yet the British mopped the floor with them until Rommel got involved. Then the scales turned and it was the British who outnumbered the Axis and got pushed around. Hard to see how that can translate into consistent play unless you apply special rules and values for units by region.

It would be very cool to have the Axis stretched through Torch and action against Italy. SC2 does this (AI) by invading the West Coast of Africa but does not touch Italy.
Against a human opponent waging serious submarine warfare, this could be a very difficult thing to do.

< Message edited by Bossy573 -- 8/25/2007 3:31:04 PM >

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 7:08:30 PM

targul

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Not that tough to model if you use the actual forces that were in Africa. This game choose to balance in lieu of using what was there. Balance is near impossible but if you use what was there you have a good chance of modeling it correctly. Simply make those Italians ineffective while you make the British more effective. Also stop this silly idea in Africa that Allies are always out of supply or very low. I could understand that if they moved into Libya but in Egypt the Allies had good supply.

When you start with the idea that the war needed to be balanced instead of correctly adjuticated you will get this sort of strangeness. Wonder what the Axis would have done had they been balanced instead of how it was?

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Cant we just get along.
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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/25/2007 8:50:20 PM

Bossy573

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This is true. The Italians are overpowered in the game, as are all Axis units save the Germans. Perhaps a way around it is to start the non-German Axis units weak and give them a considerable bonus if an Axis unit with a leader is within a certain number of hexes. This might be a way to model the "stiffening" effect of German units on non-German Axis units.

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