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Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 8/31/2007 9:57:32 AM

MPHopcroft1

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Now that I'vwe finally got my game back, I've been tooling around a bit. I tried to win Waterloo as the French again, and failed. I'm not convinced a French win IS possible.

The small board and heavy troop concentration gives you few options, if any. There are always enemies in front of you. If you can, you must attack them madly and continuously. Your only hope of avoiding a catastrophic defeat is to somehow shatter both opposing armies before they have a chance to regroup and defend their primary objective hexes. I'm not convinced this is entirely possible.

Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle? Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible? what about certain ACW campaigns like the ones that led up to Shiloh and Antietam? would the March Through Georgia be a viable scenario? what about the Franco-Prussian war that humiliated and finally deposed napoleon III and set the stage for modern Germany?

I'd wanted a Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War game for some time. Might this, with some tweaking, be it?

_____________________________

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Post #: 1

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 8/31/2007 11:37:24 AM

Silvanski

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There are several interesting pre WW1 scenarios ,originally designed in ACOW with 19th century engine , but can be converted to TOAWIII for use with the 19th century EQP file
Make sure you have TOAWIII patch 3.1.0.9 installed

Look here for a list of scenarios and the EQP file.

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/hosted/19thcentury/index.php

_____________________________

The TOAW Redux Dude

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Post #: 2

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 8/31/2007 1:43:12 PM

golden delicious

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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle?

As you said, the Franco-Prussian War, and the American Civil War (up to a point). Conflicts in a period where communications were relatively sophisticated.

quote:

Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible?

No. The important factors in earlier periods are totally different from the modern era and TOAW doesn't even touch on them. How can you determine whether your army can find forage or not, whether an army does the wrong thing because it has no information on events of the previous turn, etc?

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to MPHopcroft1)

Post #: 3

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 8/31/2007 6:04:16 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

Now that I'vwe finally got my game back, I've been tooling around a bit. I tried to win Waterloo as the French again, and failed. I'm not convinced a French win IS possible.

The small board and heavy troop concentration gives you few options, if any. There are always enemies in front of you. If you can, you must attack them madly and continuously. Your only hope of avoiding a catastrophic defeat is to somehow shatter both opposing armies before they have a chance to regroup and defend their primary objective hexes. I'm not convinced this is entirely possible.

Jeez! Am I going to have to post a "Detailed Waterloo first turn" too? I've clobbered the Allies as the French on more than one occasion.

quote:

Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle? Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible? what about certain ACW campaigns like the ones that led up to Shiloh and Antietam? would the March Through Georgia be a viable scenario? what about the Franco-Prussian war that humiliated and finally deposed napoleon III and set the stage for modern Germany?

I'd wanted a Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War game for some time. Might this, with some tweaking, be it?

The answer is that no one can really know until someone tries. Don't listen to the naysayers. They are the same people who long ago "proved" that man can't fly and therefore refuse to look up whenever a jet roars overhead.

(in reply to MPHopcroft1)

Post #: 4

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 8/31/2007 6:18:11 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
. . . Don't listen to the naysayers . .

ditto

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 5

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 8/31/2007 8:19:13 PM

a white rabbit

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..ignore our pet Conservatiiiiive, reactionary apple..

..yes, t3'll do what you want, but it'l take a lot of work with a paint prog, and a little work with the BioEd..

..the engine's sound, it works across history, a test run on the Battle of the Pyramids showed that, pure toaw, great fun if a tadge inaccurate..

..if it helps i use 2.5k hexes as the base(considered as 20m hexes) and day turns to avoid hiccups, heat, night etc are set in the EvEd..genuine elephants would be nice and will arrive one day (Elmer intervention in 2 player games..sighhhhh, i dream...), this is for t3-ancients but for reasonable Nap stuff, s'easier..

..NB that's loads'a work with a paint prog, you have been warned

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Post #: 6

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/3/2007 4:53:30 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The answer is that no one can really know until someone tries. Don't listen to the naysayers. They are the same people who long ago "proved" that man can't fly and therefore refuse to look up whenever a jet roars overhead.

Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 7

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/3/2007 6:40:53 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

That's where you have to get creative.

One way is to constrain the scenario so that the things TOAW doesn't do well don't matter. Take "Killer Angels 1863". The scope of it (map and time range) are limited to areas and intervals that both sides could easily have stayed supplied. The map prevents Lee from traipsing off to Philidelphia, or Meade on to Richmond, or either into the Blue Ridge. And the time range negates any need for more advanced logistical issues.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 9/3/2007 6:41:34 PM >

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 8

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/3/2007 6:56:58 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That's where you have to get creative.

One way is to constrain the scenario so that the things TOAW doesn't do well don't matter. Take "Killer Angels 1863". The scope of it (map and time range) are limited to areas and intervals that both sides could easily have stayed supplied. The map prevents Lee from traipsing off to Philidelphia, or Meade on to Richmond, or either into the Blue Ridge. And the time range negates any need for more advanced logistical issues.

The trouble is that operational warfare in these periods tends to involve one stack maneouvring with regard to one other stack. The variations aren't very interesting unless you have a tactical module- which you don't in TOAW.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 9

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/3/2007 9:01:11 PM

MPHopcroft1

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which is why Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War would be great games if Mr. Koger could be bothered to develop them.

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Post #: 10

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/3/2007 9:15:19 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

which is why Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War would be great games if Mr. Koger could be bothered to develop them.

Don�t know if there are any legal limitations that came with the Matrix acquisition of TOAW, but I expect that Matrix could produce the Art Of War you propose. Seems that they have all of the talent and community input they would possibly need.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to MPHopcroft1)

Post #: 11

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/3/2007 11:25:15 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
The trouble is that operational warfare in these periods tends to involve one stack maneouvring with regard to one other stack.

False in both "Killer Angels 1863" and "Waterloo 1815", and I think in the other scenarios in the Pre-WWI folder as well.

quote:

The variations aren't very interesting unless you have a tactical module- which you don't in TOAW.

Not even desireable, much less necessary.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 12

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 1:02:58 AM

MPHopcroft1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

quote:

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

which is why Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War would be great games if Mr. Koger could be bothered to develop them.

Don�t know if there are any legal limitations that came with the Matrix acquisition of TOAW, but I expect that Matrix could produce the Art Of War you propose. Seems that they have all of the talent and community input they would possibly need.

Regards, RhinoBones

Before they do so, they would have to be convinced it was worth their while -- which, in a business, means that it would bring in considerably more money than creating and producing it would require them to dole out. They would have to know there is a market currently for that specific type of game.

And I obviously do not mean this as an insult to matrix when i say that nobody can produce a quality PC game from scratch quickly. It simply isn't humanly possible. It's taken ten years to convert World in Flames to a PC game and they're STILL ironing out the details before it's ready for public release, not because they're bad at it -- to the contrary -- but because the task is so enormous and complicated. No doubt when Norm Koger and his team set out to create the original Operational Art of war they were facing a gargantuan task and knew it.

It simply isn't something that can be done simply because one gamer suggests it would be neat.

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Post #: 13

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 2:03:44 AM

rhinobones

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From scratch? Why start from scratch?

My intention was to use TOAW III as the baseline for development of an Art of War. A large part of the code exists, graphics exist, the equipment file can be edited . . . time and distance scale would seem to be some of the bigger problems to over come. There are certainly other obstacles, but nothing that would seem to be insurmountable.

Oh, and for those who need it, foraging too.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to MPHopcroft1)

Post #: 14

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 7:00:36 AM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The answer is that no one can really know until someone tries. Don't listen to the naysayers. They are the same people who long ago "proved" that man can't fly and therefore refuse to look up whenever a jet roars overhead.

Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

..at my scale, use off-map supply point with very low range, add on map slow or no move supply units with very low range..

..at campaign scale, cities and major ports permanent supply points loss-tagged to enemy captures nearby towns, reappears x moves after recapture if city not destroyed

..market towns seasonal fixed supply units, only in summer and autumn, low range..

..only use all-weather roads on land, and then only in Roman Empire, maybe use invisible rail in sea hexes for sea transport, if you can do all bridge rail so much the better as it gives pirates something to do..

..see, s'easy..

..edit..foraging then is simply going and sitting on or near a supply point

< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 9/4/2007 8:00:46 AM >

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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Post #: 15

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 7:02:12 AM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

From scratch? Why start from scratch?

My intention was to use TOAW III as the baseline for development of an Art of War. A large part of the code exists, graphics exist, the equipment file can be edited . . . time and distance scale would seem to be some of the bigger problems to over come. There are certainly other obstacles, but nothing that would seem to be insurmountable.

Oh, and for those who need it, foraging too.

Regards, RhinoBones

..wot 'e said..

..plus why go from scratch, got the best engine available and the means to make it squeak..

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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Post #: 16

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 12:29:06 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

False in both "Killer Angels 1863" and "Waterloo 1815", and I think in the other scenarios in the Pre-WWI folder as well.

Oh you're right. At Waterloo both sides had two stacks.

quote:

Not even desireable, much less necessary.

We've been over this at TDG; but take your Waterloo scenario. You do all your preliminary maneouvrings- and then you roll a dice with various modifiers. Highest score wins.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 17

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 12:30:09 PM

golden delicious

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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

From scratch? Why start from scratch?

Because it will probably be quicker. If you have a wardrobe and a lump of timber, which is the best thing to start from if you plan to build a table?

I don't really know a great deal about the legal issues- but there'll probably be something.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 9/4/2007 12:33:56 PM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to rhinobones)

Post #: 18

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 6:07:59 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

False in both "Killer Angels 1863" and "Waterloo 1815", and I think in the other scenarios in the Pre-WWI folder as well.

Oh you're right. At Waterloo both sides had two stacks.

quote:

Not even desireable, much less necessary.

We've been over this at TDG; but take your Waterloo scenario. You do all your preliminary maneouvrings- and then you roll a dice with various modifiers. Highest score wins.

Based upon those two completely false statements, I can only assume you've never even opened it up, much less tried it. I may need to do a "How to..." AAR thing after all. There's at least as much going on in Waterloo as in any other scenario of similar size.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 19

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 7:46:35 PM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..at my scale, use off-map supply point with very low range, ...

whoooo! Hang on there. I didn't knew you could add a range to supply points in TOAW. So, how did you do it?

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Post #: 20

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 7:48:01 PM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
...
Mm. So how does an army forage in TOAW?

eh,eh,eh... it's abstracted on the supply system...

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Post #: 21

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 9:20:10 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..at my scale, use off-map supply point with very low range, ...

whoooo! Hang on there. I didn't knew you could add a range to supply points in TOAW. So, how did you do it?

..try the list of Events, starts Supply Radius 1 and Supply Radius 2 can be set

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..be�n'tus all..?,

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Post #: 22

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/4/2007 9:33:49 PM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..at my scale, use off-map supply point with very low range, ...

whoooo! Hang on there. I didn't knew you could add a range to supply points in TOAW. So, how did you do it?

..try the list of Events, starts Supply Radius 1 and Supply Radius 2 can be set

As far as my knowledge goes, that does not set a defined range for the supply point, but a number of hexes to which supply extend from a road.

It's not exactly the same thing as, let's say, a supply point has got a 20hex range, after that range, no supply can be drawn from it.

(in reply to a white rabbit)

Post #: 23

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/16/2007 3:15:49 AM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I may need to do a "How to..." AAR thing after all.

Note that I've now done just such an AAR on "Waterloo 1815". Find it here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1567752

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 24

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/16/2007 9:30:28 PM

ColinWright

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quote:

...Nonetheless, the exercise, futile though it is, got me thinking. what other battles or campaigns of the 1792-1904 era can TOAW handle? Are there campaigns even earlier it can manage? If someone could come up with a weapon stat for things like muskets and pikes, would Thirty Year's Wars campaigns be possible? what about certain ACW campaigns like the ones that led up to Shiloh and Antietam? would the March Through Georgia be a viable scenario? what about the Franco-Prussian war that humiliated and finally deposed napoleon III and set the stage for modern Germany?

I'd wanted a Napoleon's Art of War or Grant's Art of War game for some time. Might this, with some tweaking, be it?

I don't think OPART can work very well for anything prior to World War One. It fails on the following counts.

1. The player has perfect knowledge of where his own forces are and what their condition is. Rare in the pre-modern era.

2. He is able to issue orders to them and have them obeyed -- all with no delay and with complete certainty of correct execution. Also rare in the pre-modern era.

3. The supply system is almost completely irrelevant. What killed Napoleon on the retreat from Moscow wasn't the inability to rail more shells up from Paris. It was the lack of local forage.

4. The densities are completely off.

5. The defender receives an advantage that just didn't exist in the pre-modern era. You're the Russians at Borodino? Why, just entrench: the French would be mad to attack you.

6. In the modern era, the campaign arena and the size of the battlefield are such that they can reasonably both be portrayed on the same map. Similarly with the time scales. The Eastern Front is a thousand miles long and was a serious contest for about three years and Kursk and the associated battles spanned perhaps a fifth of that and lasted a month or two: you can represent both the large and the small view at once. Go to Napoleon's invasion of Russia and Borodino: a potentially decisive battle occurs within an area that would be at most one hex on the campaign map and is settled in at most one turn. In the pre-modern era, the difference in scale between the campaigns and the battles tends to be much to great to allow both to be simulated on the same screen and at the same intervals.

Now, 4 and 5 could be dealt with fairly easily, and some campaigns could be modeled in spite of 6, but 1, 2, and 3 are killers. If you're going to attempt to model pre-modern warfare, OPART III is only slightly more appropriate than 'The Sims.' Both will give you equally valid simulations.

That said, by all means go ahead if you've got nothing better to do. You may even produce a scenario that is of limited validity. However, I have little patience for the argument that OPART is really the appropriate tool for the pre-modern era. It obviously isn't.

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Post #: 25

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/17/2007 12:04:36 AM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I don't think OPART can work very well for anything prior to World War One.

And no experimental evidence to the contrary will ever be entertained.

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 26

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/17/2007 2:04:12 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I don't think OPART can work very well for anything prior to World War One.

And no experimental evidence to the contrary will ever be entertained.

Au contraire. I find the first post in this thread excellent evidence. I'm also aware of the difficulties that have attended efforts to simulate the American Revolution and the American Civil War with OPART. Finally, I note that you haven't attempted to refute my points. One doesn't need evidence to observe that OPART won't -- can't -- provide supply based on the ratio of troops in a given area to the food production of that area, etc.

Of course, we won't get anywhere with this argument. It's just that every time you cast this particular lure into the pond, I can't resist taking a snap at it. It'll get me every time.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/17/2007 8:20:39 AM

ColinWright

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Since 'LeMay' likes to use his Waterloo scenario as a poster child for the suitability of OPART to pre-modern warfare, and since he's helpfully furnished an AAR, let's take a look at how well OPART works in this case. According to LeMay. In this case. This ideal case.

'The unit-scale vs. hex-scale (Divisions @ 2.5km/hex) results in unit-densities so high that density-penalties have more impact on combat results than combat-odds do.' Sounds real Napoleonic. Avoid concentrating those troops.

'the �do not dig-in� house rule.' The house rule.

'losses from direct attacks come slowly. ' Yep. That's pretty authentic simulation of the pre-modern period. Witness Pickett's Charge. Or Cold Harbor. Looks like we're getting some quality simulation here.

'As I said above, density-penalties have more effect on the outcome than odds. Always try to spread out and never miss a chance to attack a dense enemy stack.' 'But mon general -- the enemy is far too thinly spread along that ridge and we have far too many troops. We must hit him more weakly and where he is more densely massed.' There they are again. Those classic Napoleonic tactics.

'Note the nine units in the hex above it prevent any retreat into that hex.' Ah. That was definitely a classic ploy in pre-modern warfare. Jam up the opposing player's retreat route with nine 'units.' Thus preventing retreat. I'm awed by the fidelity of the simulation.

'Cut-off Prussian units near the bottom of the map, and in another pocket, have been eliminated.' The kesselschlacht. I almost feel like I'm really in...1941.

Is this the jet roaring overhead that I'm supposed to hear?

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 9/17/2007 8:32:40 AM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/17/2007 1:45:35 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Since 'LeMay' likes to use his Waterloo scenario as a poster child for the suitability of OPART to pre-modern warfare, and since he's helpfully furnished an AAR, let's take a look at how well OPART works in this case. According to LeMay. In this case. This ideal case.

Christ. I had a look at this. Throughout the scenario, the action is a fluid battle in line eminiscent of the modern period. At no point is there even the remotest possibility of a) the French army splitting into two wings to fight two completely separate actions or b) the two sides breaking off contact with one another.

Now, I'm prepared to be charitable. Bob: could you explain how the above reflects the historical reality of Napeolonic warfare?

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 29

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities? - 9/17/2007 6:17:26 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Since 'LeMay' likes to use his Waterloo scenario as a poster child for the suitability of OPART to pre-modern warfare, and since he's helpfully furnished an AAR, let's take a look at how well OPART works in this case. According to LeMay. In this case. This ideal case.

'The unit-scale vs. hex-scale (Divisions @ 2.5km/hex) results in unit-densities so high that density-penalties have more impact on combat results than combat-odds do.' Sounds real Napoleonic. Avoid concentrating those troops.

'the �do not dig-in� house rule.' The house rule.

'losses from direct attacks come slowly. ' Yep. That's pretty authentic simulation of the pre-modern period. Witness Pickett's Charge. Or Cold Harbor. Looks like we're getting some quality simulation here.

'As I said above, density-penalties have more effect on the outcome than odds. Always try to spread out and never miss a chance to attack a dense enemy stack.' 'But mon general -- the enemy is far too thinly spread along that ridge and we have far too many troops. We must hit him more weakly and where he is more densely massed.' There they are again. Those classic Napoleonic tactics.

'Note the nine units in the hex above it prevent any retreat into that hex.' Ah. That was definitely a classic ploy in pre-modern warfare. Jam up the opposing player's retreat route with nine 'units.' Thus preventing retreat. I'm awed by the fidelity of the simulation.

'Cut-off Prussian units near the bottom of the map, and in another pocket, have been eliminated.' The kesselschlacht. I almost feel like I'm really in...1941.

Is this the jet roaring overhead that I'm supposed to hear?

I'm sure that there are tons of WWII scenarios out there that would love to work as well as Waterloo 1815 does. Look at the overall picture. The Ligny defenders were shattered and the British fell back on Waterloo, where a major engagement took place that required much more than "one die roll", while the French tried to hold off Prussian flanking efforts. Grouchy was detached to deal with the remains of the Ligny defenders. Combats were decided primarily on the basis of the operational strength and initiative of the participants.

At the operational level, it really does work. Does it work at the tactical level? Not entirely. But that's generally true for all scenarios. TOAW is an operational simulator. But note that some Napoleonic flavor has been injected via the equipment edit.

Are there house rules? Yes. Know of any WWII scenarios with house rules, Colin?

Are the Ligny defenders set up to shatter? Yes. They should be.

Do other Allied units shatter for assorted reasons? Yes. What's wrong with that?

Is there any need for foraging to be modeled? Of course not. The scenario is three days in length and both sides had supply trains (they are modeled).

Is there any need for some sort of aide-de-camp system? Again, no. The scope and scale are such that it's not necessary. Units will remain within reasonable command range of commanders no matter how scattered they get. Movement allowances have been adjusted down to allow for time for orders to be delivered.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 9/17/2007 6:24:06 PM >

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 30

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