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Future of Harpoon - 9/1/2007 1:16:34 PM   
hawk66

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/5/2005
From: Germany
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Hi,

I'm a little confused about the future of Harpoon. Will there be a new version of Harpoon in the future or is it only planned to update the current codebase?

I don't take care about improving the UI. The main lack of the Harpoon series (in my opinion) is the scenario/mission editor. You can't create real dynamic scenarions/missions, which limits the possibilites of the AI too.

What do you think about integrating a script language (eg. python) to give modders and scenario designers access to the simulation engine to control the objects (platforms, weapons etc.) during runtime?

Or would the architecture of the current codebase not allow such an integration?

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RE: Future of Harpoon - 9/3/2007 1:02:15 PM   
BurntFingers

 

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OK... I'll deal with the last first. I'm assuming by "Dynamic" you mean randomly playable, with a scenario being different everytime you play it.

1) There's little point in including a scripting facility like Python, because most scenario editors would not use it. At present land facilities cannot even move (it's a naval/air wargame, not a total wargame). It is possible to have random starting positions and time triggered events (which due to random placing can be randomly triggered) but most scenario designers don't even use that.

Which is best? Accurate modelling of historical events or dynamic scenarios? Ideally, both! What we've got is sort of a bit of both, but not the full total of both.

2) The "next" version of Harpoon planned is the commander's edition, basically classic Harpoon with all the trimmings (but no multiplayer).

3) There are future plans for a completely different version of Harpoon having nothing to do with current versions. Don't hold your breath, because if AGSI just walk away from ANW as it currently is, nobody that helped them through the lean years will bother supporting them ever again. (Rule 1 of selling  - do not make your current customers angry).

AGSI make Harpoon. Matrix sell and promote Harpoon.

MIND YOU... I suggest you hang around for other posters to have their say. I just play the thing and dabble in scenario design.

But bearing in mind that that the whole idea of computer Harpoon was to have a point and click interface, I'd say that a scripting language will be supported at about the same time that interstellar warfare is accurately modelled in the game. Not within our lifetimes.

< Message edited by BurntFingers -- 9/3/2007 1:07:39 PM >

(in reply to hawk66)
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RE: Future of Harpoon - 9/3/2007 2:41:17 PM   
Flankerk

 

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Personally speaking these for me fall into the category of "nice to have items" but honestly they aren't critical to the game.
There are for me more critical issues that should be prioritised and are of far greater significance.
I tend to feel that newly introduced features often need a period of stability to evaluate their impact. At times bugs are introduced probably as a direct consequence of a new feature. We could almost do with a period of bug squashing even if it is at the expense of a new feature being introduced.

There are also questions to do with the community in general. How for example can content provided by database and scenario writers be protected? How does what the community want influence the future direction of the project. To a certain extent AGSI can legitimately respond that it is after all their product. However the selling of 3.7 was largely intended to fund the future development of the game. If that development goes in a direction that few are keen on then its unlikely anyone would buy into it again I would guess?

The content channel has been one response to prioritising bugs and features plus trying to protect against "cloning" and has had some effect so far. If critical bugs are addressed in a prioritised fashion that can only be a good thing.

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RE: Future of Harpoon - 9/3/2007 3:39:58 PM   
BurntFingers

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

How for example can content provided by database and scenario writers be protected?

.

Send round "da boyz with da batz"?

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RE: Future of Harpoon - 9/3/2007 8:07:09 PM   
hawk66

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/5/2005
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

1) There's little point in including a scripting facility like Python, because most scenario editors would not use it. At present land facilities cannot even move (it's a naval/air wargame, not a total wargame). It is possible to have random starting positions and time triggered events (which due to random placing can be randomly triggered) but most scenario designers don't even use that.


I agree with you, that a scripting language wouldn't be used by the majority of the scenario designer.
The ideal world of a next-generation Harpoon would consist of:
- a rich scenario editor like you have in Dangerous Waters /Steel Beasts Pro
- a script language for sophisticated tasks like improving the AI (for that particular mission), setting EMCON according to the situation, use of true dynamic events etc.

quote:

But bearing in mind that that the whole idea of computer Harpoon was to have a point and click interface, I'd say that a scripting language will be supported at about the same time that interstellar warfare is accurately modelled in the game. Not within our lifetimes.


Ok, I've got it

I know that the Harpoon Development Team has not the resources like a Civ4 Development Team (which created a very moddable game, incl. editor, Python and C++ SDK).
My intention was only to know if a script/C++ mission SDK (name it as you like ) would perhaps 'cheaper' to build as a sophisticated scenario/mission editor.


(in reply to BurntFingers)
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RE: Future of Harpoon - 9/4/2007 8:43:09 PM   
hawk66

 

Posts: 15
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From: Germany
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Hi Dale,

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCDH

Second, a rough statment regarding the ultimate incarnation of what we plan is an AI that can dynamically respond to a tactical situtation that it can analyze on it's own. So while the player would be tasked with *do this* the AI would recieve a rough idea of it's own tactical situtation, i.e. *protect this*. This will ultimately lead to the AI targeting the amphibious force as opposed to the carrier because the amphibious force is what can put men on the ground in the area the AI is protecting.


That sounds really good . The problem with the approach which is currently available in Dangerous Waters/Steel Beasts Pro is that you can somehow modify the behavior of the AI (in DW you have doctrine files in addition) but it's very painful to do so. Actually, you define rules/constraints and since they have dependencies to each other, it's very difficult to keep the overview when you've a lot of rules.
So, a customizable AI engine, which would make use of sophisticated algorithms (common AI algorithms like neuronal nets,genetics to deal with dynamic situations etc.) instead on relying on static rules would be a real ultimate incarnation.

For defining some (random/dynamic) events rules are a valid approach in my opinion.


_____________________________

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Post #: 6
RE: Future of Harpoon - 9/5/2007 8:42:01 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VCDH

First, I'd like to say that these ideas are really good.  Please keep them coming.

Second, a rough statment regarding the ultimate incarnation of what we plan is an AI that can dynamically respond to a tactical situtation that it can analyze on it's own.  So while the player would be tasked with *do this* the AI would recieve a rough idea of it's own tactical situtation, i.e. *protect this*.



It sounds to me very much like the AI managing to interpret the Victory Conditions and use Mission Planning/Formation Editing/manipulation of naval units to achieve Victory Conditions.

This isn't quite what the original post was about - that was about using a Scripting Language to modify behaviour.

Now, my 2 cents worth;-

1) The main sticking point is an AI that can intelligently allocate assets to missions. That's the real sticking point, and Python just won't cut it for that (too slow, too many variables). But what I reckon you could do is have an AI that can allocate assets to a SINGLE set of Victory Conditions. It's not an easy job but it is just about possible within current known game theory/PC processing power.

2) What the Scenario Editor could have is choose what sort of "bent" or inclination the AI uses in acheiving Victory Conditions. For instance, there could be a set of switches ranging from Fastest Solution (Lots of Air Power, lots of PGM), Sneakiest (minimal use of active sensors), and settings for agression/defence aspects.

That way a Scenario Editor would have the choice of setting up an AI opponent.

Alternatively, have them done as a set of ingame choice - additional screen to selecting difficulty level (it would actually REPLACE current difficulty level).

One thing the miniatures game has that computer Harpoon doesn't is pilot ability - novice, regular, veteran, ace etc. That's the sort of thing AGSI should be thinking about implementing.

I can waffle on about this for days. Got to go now, I'll think about it some more.

On a lighter note; boyz with batz with nailz through da ends. ;)

This will ultimately lead to the AI targeting the amphibious force as opposed to the carrier because the amphibious force is what can put men on the ground in the area the AI is protecting.

The bad news is that before we can do that, we need to decouple other components from the game engine to make them more modular.  We'd also like to make the AI programmable to a certain extent, not using Python or anything like that, but more of what you see in a Steel Panthers kind of Preferences Menu, just tailored for naval warfare.

Later
D




Post #: 7
RE: Future of Harpoon - 12/23/2007 2:22:53 PM   
hawk66

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/5/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline
Hi Dale,

is any update on this topic available or is it still too early?

I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

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RE: Future of Harpoon - 12/23/2007 5:36:10 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
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Greetings,

Interesting idea of having training video for the games. That may be just the thing to help with the learning curve hurdle. For myself, I had found that for as a total noob, learning interface was a significant barrier to embracing the game and playing it. Of course, after one actually starts playing it, one realizes that the interface does actually have some strengths such as the ability to open arbitrary windows and configure them as needed for the particular situation at hand.

At Panther Games, we had look into doing something similar as we have a complex system with 500+ pages of game manuals. The only potential negative with this approach is when you have customers who are not native speakers of English, then they may have more trouble following the monologue in interactive tutorials than they would simply reading along. Thus, we concluded that interactive training materials should be used as an adjunct to existing documentation, but not as a replacement.

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