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Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 8/22/2007 1:15:03 AM   
1971mv

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		Let me share a few bugs that I ran into while playing the Russian/Soviet side in all scenerios.

1. Active Sonar on Subs and Ships does not work.
2. ECM does not work on any ships/aircraft/units that this function should work on.
3. AA-12 Adder missle only fires when in range of 10 miles or less even though the database lists the missle with a range of 40 miles.
4. SA-10,12 missles sometimes do not engage tomahawks.
5. When re-loading a unit with other weapons the reload does not work the unit always goes back to the original layout.
6. Also I am not sure if this is a bug but Mig29M has a longer range in the game then the SU-27/33 from my sources that is not accurate but I could be wrong.

Thank You,

Michael
Post #: 1
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 8/22/2007 9:15:59 AM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 417
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		I'm assuming this is to the original database?
I'd recommend trying the various Harpoon HQ databases , there are several scenarios designed from the Russian point of view also.

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 2
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 8/22/2007 4:51:04 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Indeed. It's very hard to comment on a given behaviour unless you say which database/scenario you were playing at the time.

I can offer some guesses about some of these behaviours;-

1) Active sonar is extremely short ranged - but there is a bug in 3.8 which means sensor status is not displayed correctly in the sensor status window. If you click on a unit and look at the EMCON state (which doesn't include sonar) then that says ACTIVE or PASSIVE. So this is a bug, which should be fixed by the next patch, which we should get in September.

2) See above for the status, and be aware that Harpoon 3 models 2 flavours of ECM - Offensive and Defensive. Offensive is used to jam enemy radars at range, but at a short range the enemy radars "burn through" the jamming. Also leaving a jammer on a stationary target lets the enemy target it. Defensive Jamming just gives a slight improvement in dodging an enemy radar guided missile.

3) I'm pretty sure this is a database issue, where the sensor on the missile cannot see over 12 miles even though the missile has a 40 mile range.

4) Could be bug, could be the realism. You are not guaranteed that a radar can track a target - especially a low flying cruise missile - even though a radar can detect it.

5) Took me a while to work out how to do this - you have to unload the weapon, then click on the new weapon, then click OK. It will take a while for the reload to occur (even a "lightweight" torpedo takes some shifting around). Oh, check the reload is actually available in the magazine.

6) Which database? If you don't like a DB value, then you can use the DB editor to change it yourself.

Bear in mind, a lot of DB info is "best guess" rather than "total accurate".

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 3
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 8/23/2007 1:31:16 AM   
1971mv

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		I apologize to not posting which Database I was playing your assumption is correct I am reffering to the Standard Database.

3) I'm pretty sure this is a database issue, where the sensor on the missile cannot see over 12 miles even though the missile has a 40 mile range.
3A) That is highly unlikely since the AA-12 Adder is the Russian version of "AAMRAMSKI" fitted to all the latest 4.5th generation aircraft like the SU-35. Example if the AA-10 ALAMO engages at 25 miles this missle will engage at minimum 30+. Just as Hugo Chavez who just bought 30 SU-30MK with the AA-12 

4) Could be bug, could be the realism. You are not guaranteed that a radar can track a target - especially a low flying cruise missile - even though a radar can detect it.
4A) That is very possible due to terrain I will play some more to get a better idea.
 
1) Active sonar is extremely short ranged - but there is a bug in 3.8 which means sensor status is not displayed correctly in the sensor status window. If you click on a unit and look at the EMCON state (which doesn't include sonar) then that says ACTIVE or PASSIVE. So this is a bug, which should be fixed by the next patch, which we should get in September.
4A) Thank You.
 
I thank you for your response and I hope that this game will continue to expand going forward. I have been playing this game since mid 90's and it is simply awsome.






(in reply to BurntFingers)
Post #: 4
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 8/30/2007 4:15:12 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1971mv

3) I'm pretty sure this is a database issue, where the sensor on the missile cannot see over 12 miles even though the missile has a 40 mile range.
3A) That is highly unlikely since the AA-12 Adder is the Russian version of "AAMRAMSKI" fitted to all the latest 4.5th generation aircraft like the SU-35. Example if the AA-10 ALAMO engages at 25 miles this missle will engage at minimum 30+. Just as Hugo Chavez who just bought 30 SU-30MK with the AA-12 



Er... you do know the standard database shipped with Harpoon 2 back in 1992? It's 15 years old.

So... you are QUITE RIGHT. It is biased against Soviet/Russian weapon systems as game designers were in no hurry to enter a country which had the potential for civil nuclear war at the the time.

At the same time... I checked the values and the sensor is indeed limited to 10 NM;-

[img=http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/274/grabaa12uc4.th.png]

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 5
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 8/30/2007 8:30:04 PM   
Divefreak

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1971mv

Just as Hugo Chavez who just bought 30 SU-30MK with the AA-12[/color]


Do you have a Source for AA-12 on venzuela SU-30?

http://www.aviacion.mil.ve/images/SUKHOI30.HTM
Says AA-10 and AA-11

Regards René

< Message edited by Divefreak -- 8/30/2007 9:30:50 PM >

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 6
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/1/2007 2:06:35 AM   
1971mv

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		To BurntFingers,

"Er... you do know the standard database shipped with Harpoon 2 back in 1992? It's 15 years old."
Yes BurntFinger I am very aware of that since I actualy have the original manual and the floppies that came with HP2 abcl when it came out, they sure do not make manuals like that any more do they? The only reason I brought this up is while playing the standard database using the 3.7 patch AA-12 was not even available. Once I applied the 3.8 patch AA-12 became available hence I assume the info came from recent sources. As to civil war or being biased well that is a can of worms I will not open. All I will say on that issue is from an old proverb, "If you do not like wolves then do not enter the forest."
 
 
 

(in reply to Divefreak)
Post #: 7
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/1/2007 2:14:42 AM   
1971mv

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		To Divefreak,

Unfortunately I do not read or speak Spanish as to my source it was channel 1 station Moscow which had a episode on the sale of the hardware involved and Sukhoi representitives discussing the scientific data.

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 8
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/3/2007 12:46:15 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1971mv

To BurntFingers,

"Er... you do know the standard database shipped with Harpoon 2 back in 1992? It's 15 years old."
Yes BurntFinger I am very aware of that since I actualy have the original manual and the floppies that came with HP2 abcl when it came out, they sure do not make manuals like that any more do they? The only reason I brought this up is while playing the standard database using the 3.7 patch AA-12 was not even available. Once I applied the 3.8 patch AA-12 became available hence I assume the info came from recent sources. As to civil war or being biased well that is a can of worms I will not open. All I will say on that issue is from an old proverb, "If you do not like wolves then do not enter the forest."
 
 
 


Fair enough. Sorry if you took offence.

I must admit the proverb had me a bit puzzled. Wolves will run from humans whether they are liked or not.

Nevermind. At least you appreciate WHY the AA12s are not working to their capability within the game.

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 9
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/3/2007 2:21:02 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 417
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		Venezuelan Flanker with AA-12 already being introduced in DB2000. Think Ragnars comment was that reports of Flankers for sale with AA-10 and AA-11 tend to be generic and not usually based on actual information.


_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to BurntFingers)
Post #: 10
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/3/2007 10:39:27 PM   
1971mv

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		To BurntFingers,

No bother at all how can I be upset with a fellow Harpoon Player, as to the proverb I guess the meaning gets fuzzied when you translate from Russian to English. I assume that HP is using data from Janes since that publication is respected in the military community and is the closest to real numbers outside of actualy going to classified files. I am frustrated though in not being able to play DB2000 to its fullest is their a tech telephone number I can call so that somebody live can guide me on how to properly install the needed files?

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 11
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/4/2007 12:45:20 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 417
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		There is a guide to installing DB2000 on HarpoonHQ, or ask there if you are having problems.
What is happening at present with the intsallation?
Would recommend persisting with it, one of the useful aspects of the game is the ease with which you can swap between different databases.

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 12
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/4/2007 3:58:22 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1971mv
I assume that HP is using data from Janes since that publication is respected in the military community and is the closest to real numbers outside of actualy going to classified files.


A bit off topic, but that might be a dangerous assumption to make. Some will krap all over Jane's, and admittedly sometimes they are just plain wrong, but I think the better approach is to simply treat them as another "source" and cross reference their information against other reputable sources. Cheers.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 13
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/4/2007 4:42:45 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		DB2k years 1980-2015 is still very much in beta for ANW. The Colonial years have been cleared (1950-64) and (1965-74) are very close to being cleared. But if you want the latest then you must be prepared to get your hands dirty (do some hard work) to get there.


1) Make a new folder in the databases directory. Call it DB2000 or similar (current beta test is 10_0_1 for DB2000 years 1980-2015)

2) Examine how the supplied DBs give an .xml file to identify what kind of database is selected. Use Notepad to save the changed file into the new DB2000 directory that you made. Always select SAVE AS and change the file type to "ALL TYPES". That way Notepad will not put txt on the end of a file.

3) Make (or save a modifed form of the supplied) .xml file that will identify the database to the database selector.

Once you have a directory with the XML file setup just so, then you should be able to select it from the H3 Config menu). Then you can load the game or scenario editor (or even database editor) with that beta test. You will have to load and save the scenarios with the scenario editor before you can play them.



I don't think the original supplied database refers to Janes ANYWHERE. Seems to refer to a lot of US Naval technical journals but not Janes (who don't get a mention anywhere in the HP2 manual).

I could be wrong on that.


< Message edited by BurntFingers -- 9/4/2007 4:44:58 PM >

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 14
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/4/2007 5:23:21 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		For the benefit of 1971mv;-

USNI = US Naval Institute. Members of the public can subscribe.


< Message edited by BurntFingers -- 9/4/2007 5:25:35 PM >
Post #: 15
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/5/2007 1:34:49 AM   
1971mv

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		DB2k years 1980-2015 is still very much in beta for ANW. The Colonial years have been cleared (1950-64) and (1965-74) are very close to being cleared. But if you want the latest then you must be prepared to get your hands dirty (do some hard work) to get there.


1) Make a new folder in the databases directory. Call it DB2000 or similar (current beta test is 10_0_1 for DB2000 years 1980-2015)

2) Examine how the supplied DBs give an .xml file to identify what kind of database is selected. Use Notepad to save the changed file into the new DB2000 directory that you made. Always select SAVE AS and change the file type to "ALL TYPES". That way Notepad will not put txt on the end of a file.

3) Make (or save a modifed form of the supplied) .xml file that will identify the database to the database selector.

Once you have a directory with the XML file setup just so, then you should be able to select it from the H3 Config menu). Then you can load the game or scenario editor (or even database editor) with that beta test. You will have to load and save the scenarios with the scenario editor before you can play them.



I don't think the original supplied database refers to Janes ANYWHERE. Seems to refer to a lot of US Naval technical journals but not Janes (who don't get a mention anywhere in the HP2 manual).

I could be wrong on that.
Thanks, I will give your instructions a try and hope for the best.
Just out of curiosity and I thought about this since HP2 first came out in regards to ECM and all the sensors the game uses where did those numbers come from? Or are the values generic? I am not talking about the range of Sonar & Radar now, what I am trying to say is how does the game decide which radar gets jamed and which missle is spooked.



(in reply to BurntFingers)
Post #: 16
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/5/2007 8:51:09 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Best of luck.

Where does the data come from? Well, there's currently 3 broad approaches (VCDH, correct me if I'm wrong here).

1) There's the "ransack all known databases and through all the numbers together approach". PlayersDB is done on this level. Now, to be fair, Herman seems to have spent plenty of time weeding through this DB in terms of Sanity checking (making the values consistent with what Harpoon expects) but you still get some strange results in terms of contacts.

2) There's the "Use existing Harpoon Miniatures rules, ie generations of radars, jammers etc, and just let the dice roll". This is what Dale Hillier (aka VCDH) uses and while it's consistent, it's not really nailed to real world data.

3) Then there's the Ragner Emsoy "Start with known radar cross sections and play test it until it bleeds" approach. This is the slowest in terms of development but (arguably) you get best quality. Certainly you get results which seem to match up with known real world history (such as it is, because most data is classified). If you are going to use Ragner's work, let him know, talk with him, and exchange data. As a genius he doesn't have time for fools. But I've managed to get along pretty good with the guy.

As to how the game engine works; the basics are that you have a radar emission output in terms of Watts (W power output) together with a Sensitivity factor (RB). There's a parallel scheme on each sensor for those which can track, ie missile directors for SAMs and other radar missiles.

Now, there are hardware cutoff points (so much range set - no need to calculate if out of range) and also minimum and maximum heights (again so if out of parameters no calculation is done).

The Sonar model is similar but MUCH more complex.

(in reply to 1971mv)
Post #: 17
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/6/2007 1:02:35 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 417
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VCDH

However, a genius he most certainly is not.



Its a bit much to ban someone simply because he does not suffer fools gladly, and specifically mention the concern about personal attacks, then go on to conduct a personal attack yourself. Would prefer this to be editted out along with my post if agreed.

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.
Post #: 18
RE: Bugs Playing Soviet/Russian Units - 9/6/2007 8:19:18 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VCDH

However, a genius he most certainly is not.


<shrugs> He did manage to get nukes working without any code. That's inventive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCDH


Also remember that all these databases SHOULD use open source data and not classified data.




That's the most important thing. If you want to use DB2000 data for your own databases, you should GET PERMISSION FIRST from the man at HarpoonHQ.

If it's copyrighted it is NOT OPEN SOURCE. Like Janes, which is copyrighted material and should not be used without Janes permission.
Post #: 19
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