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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 5:12:15 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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Another contribution from the WiF Discussion List, about CW advices, that I crosspost here for helping with the CW AI :

***********************************************************************
de lbinflorida42 <lbinflorida42@yahoo.com>
à wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
date 7 mars 2007 15:59
objet [wifdiscussion] Re: CW tips and strategy from « hardened veterans »

A number of good remarks have been made and I would briefly add the
following:

1) Read Harry's notes on the CW for Global War. Some details are out
of date due to rule changes but overall it's still great advice.

2) Divide your navy in 3 parts. One part is your operational fleet
(offensive), the 2nd part is your reserve fleet which should be big
enough to deal with every axis sub and ship after they sail (he who
has the last reserve fleet wins), escort with what is left.

3) Any significant seazone that you run say 5+ CP's in must have a
NAV to react- especially the line off Africa.

4) Always exploit your naval advantage. Try and find something to
invade every turn- even if it's a single hex IT island in the Med.
Hit the axis where they are not as much as you can. Try and be a pain.

Lane
***********************************************************************


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 121
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 7:53:52 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
Another contribution from the WiF Discussion List, about CW advices, that I crosspost here for helping with the CW AI.
Please, tell me if you find I'm doing too much by crossposting this.

***********************************************************************
De: "tom bell" <tbell@reliantcommercial.com>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: Re:Antw: Re: [wifdiscussion] CW tips and strategy
Date: mercredi 7 mars 2007 17:28

I agree with many of the post on CW strategy; however, most seemed to deal
more on the tactical side verse a focus on overall strategic stance. By
this I mean taking an aggressive stance visa vie Italy or a passive stance
and favor USE. I have historically favored the later and feel that you give
up way too much in position on the board. The most successful CW strategy
I've seen was by my team mate (Rich Dagnell) at last years CON. He set up
strongly against the Italian on the first Allied impulse and DoWed IT as
soon as he could then he went hammer and tong after him from then on. IMO
it put the Italian in somewhat of a box and limited Axis options.

In the Cyberboard game I'm playing, the CW has followed the same strategy
and it has paid off handsomely. Despite Fr falling to my Ge attacks in JF
40, Italy has had a transport damaged and one bottomed. Without lift the
Axis could not follow a Med strategy (unless they took Gib by DoWing Spain)
for the rest of 40 and 41 and a Bar 42. IMO the Axis are strong enough to
hold a front that extends from Gib to Denmark.

As CW at my first con I lost Gib and got it back within a year. Against
Rich in Lodi last year I lost Gib to well coordinated attacks and once again
took it back within a year. So IMO attacking thru Spain to get Gib is a
false economy in the long run. Taking Gib via N. Africa and Portugal is
great because it gives you Spain. In both cases that I lost Gib the Axis
aligned Spain and in both games I still won as the CW.but it did delay my
come back.

But back to my main point: IMO the most profitable CW strategy from day one
is being VERY aggressive visa vie Italy. Using every opportunity to fight
Italy even if you are trading 3-4 CW BPs to 2 IT BPs. Unless you attrite
Italy early and box in Axis options, the come back in the Med against a
competent Axis will be long and hard.

Good luck.

On a tactical note on the BoA. I agree with the Hunter Killer groups in the
4 box and good escorts in 0 & 1 boxes. The CP reserve backed by reorg
ability is critical. This is most important because it allows the CW to get
aggressive visa vie the Subs: take every chance you get to fight them even
if you want and can "turn off the battle". Air power is the key. I put my
CVs first in the hunter killer groups and LBA or crap CVs in the convoy
boxes with high CP counts. This will constantly drag down SPs by 3 points
to call the type of attack. If your really lucky and roll a 1 on clear turn
you've got your 0 box and higher CVs in the battle against the subs."this
will leave a mark" :-)

Good luck good hunting.
***********************************************************************

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 122
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 7:57:51 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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Another interesting contribution about the aggressive CW stance :

***********************************************************************
De: <tfancher@saginaw-mi.com>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: Re: [wifdiscussion] CW tips and strategy
Date: mercredi 7 mars 2007 17:49

I agree with the aggressive stance by CW against the IT forces. The most
obvious start to this is to sail to the sea zone just outside the port
where the IT navy is hiding with all the CW CVs on Impulse 2. If the IT
does not DOW on Impulse 3, hit them with a big port strike on impulse 4.
Pull their teeth.

The IT has 2 ways to avoid this:

1. DOW CW+ on Impulse 3 and hit him at sea. Unless CW is
lucky, he will lose a CV and some damaged ships (acceptable losses).
Collect your USE chit and be glad that the IT used up its surprise before
it became really dangerous.

2. DOW FR only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.
This is a cat and mouse game, and I don't know who it favors.

The point is to do this before GE air can arrive to make things dangerous.
They still can go down there, but it wil be a gradual build-up, and the
CW can react appropriately.
***********************************************************************

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 123
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 9:52:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Another interesting contribution about the aggressive CW stance :

***********************************************************************
De: <tfancher@saginaw-mi.com>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: Re: [wifdiscussion] CW tips and strategy
Date: mercredi 7 mars 2007 17:49

I agree with the aggressive stance by CW against the IT forces. The most
obvious start to this is to sail to the sea zone just outside the port
where the IT navy is hiding with all the CW CVs on Impulse 2. If the IT
does not DOW on Impulse 3, hit them with a big port strike on impulse 4.
Pull their teeth.

The IT has 2 ways to avoid this:

1. DOW CW+ on Impulse 3 and hit him at sea. Unless CW is
lucky, he will lose a CV and some damaged ships (acceptable losses).
Collect your USE chit and be glad that the IT used up its surprise before
it became really dangerous.

2. DOW FR only and move the fleet away from the CW carriers.
This is a cat and mouse game, and I don't know who it favors.

The point is to do this before GE air can arrive to make things dangerous.
They still can go down there, but it wil be a gradual build-up, and the
CW can react appropriately.
***********************************************************************

I find these useful.


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 124
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 11:16:28 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

I find these useful.

Great, here is another one :

***********************************************************************
De: "olearyterry" <terryoleary@tiscali.co.uk>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: [wifdiscussion] Re: CW tips and strategy from « hardened veterans »
Date: mercredi 7 mars 2007 21:33

Hi, I spent the weekend playing on allied side against Ge and It
sides that built every available sub and nav, but we've reached MA'42
with losses of only a dozen CPs. Several good tactics have already
been mentioned, I completely concur with building 3CPs per turn from
the very start, and saving oil so you have at least a game turn's
supply in reserve (though in my experience it is rare for convoy
chain to be completely cut). Also, finish all those half-built
cruisers quickly (only 1BP each once you taken US entry option "gift
of detroyers. Remember oil for re-org can be any distance as long as
you have an LoC. I tend to send NEI oil to Aus or India and use it
every turn to reorg - oil sent to Blighty is for production and
emergencies. I agree entirely about air cover - in N Atlantic you
need CVLs in 0 and 1 box to guarantee air cover even in 1st impulse.
Never leave any convoy that might be hit unescorted. If you do all
that you should also never avoid combat just because you have 4+
surprise. You have CPs and oil in reserve, you have nothing to lose,
so aim to SINK SUBMARINES. You'll be surprised how fast that huge
stack of u-boats in Brest goes down!
***********************************************************************

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 125
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 11:20:26 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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And another :

***********************************************************************
De: <popo1@optonline.net>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: Re: RE: [wifdiscussion] CW tips and strategy from « hardened veterans »
Date: mercredi 7 mars 2007 21:48

When you play Axis who are aggressive against the CW you must emphasize land builds. Current game, early 42, I have my TERRs, INF, MIL, PARA built out, and nearly MOT and ARM, and will switch to MECH soon. Yes, it hurts air, and yes, it hurts naval very much. But without it you lose New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and perhaps India and the home island itself to a Germany and Japan who build to exploit your failure to build. When you have such an opponent you must not squander your army in the BEF - extract it as soon as things look bad - or overly commit to Spain and Morocco - you can't defend everything.

Bill P
***********************************************************************

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 126
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/7/2007 11:24:42 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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And another again :

***********************************************************************
De: <popo1@optonline.net>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: CW tips and strategy from « hardened veterans »
Date: mercredi 7 mars 2007 21:53

And TERR - of your TERR, half are "home country" CW units which help a lot, and half the rest are useful to very useful where they come in - Burma, Nigeria, Rhodesia and N Rhodesia, Aden, frex.

Bill P

----- Original Message -----
From: John Hammond
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 11:20 am
Subject: [wifdiscussion] Re: CW tips and strategy from « hardened veterans »
To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com

> I'm certainly no hardened veteran, but I have had enough bad
> experiences that I know something of what doesn't work. I used to
> build very few ground units as the CW in '39 and '40, instead
> concentrating on building up air and naval units. This is a big
> mistake. I recommend building out the MECH units ASAP as well as all
> INF and some MIL. Regardless of what direction the Axis take you
> will need many ground units to counter. CW just has to make do with
> what navy it starts the game with. Maybe I will start one or both of
> the "green" CVs in early '40. But that is it for naval builds. I
> also always build a 1 hex fort sometime before the MA40 turn so that
> I have it on the map (Gib) if the GE decides to go through Spain. If
> they don't attack Spain, it is nice to use in Singapore.
>
> The biggest problem I have playing the CW is, after the Axis have
> committed to going after Gib, trying to decide how much of a
> committment in forces to make defending Egypt. Once Gib is
> controlled by the Axis, Egypt becomes tough to hold. It is easy to
> lose 20 BP worth of stuff trying to defend against a pincer attack
> (from Palestine and from Libya). If the JP player DOWs in '41 they
> can easily isolate a large Egyt garrison. Usually by this time the
> CW has no naval assets to protect the Red Sea and Arabian sea from
> even a modest JP carrier force.
>
> The other comment I want to make is about a '41 Barb. I think it is
> a pretty standard play to put Alexander and 4 corps into Murmansk-
> Archangel ASAP. If the GE player is deployed strongly in the north,
> you might also consider running Gort up there with a FTR and an L3
> with air to sea factor. This will free up the Russian at least 2
> Russian corps to where they are usually desperately needed in the
> south.
>
> Cheers
>
> John
***********************************************************************

I would add that I think that the latest suggestion it is not a good idea from my point of view :
In a 41 barb, I think that CW units in Murmansk are a waste of CW resources, and I think that CW units would better be used beginning to go after Italy by conquering Tripoli, Sardinia, reinforce Malta, gain air & naval superiority in the Med, and in a lesser extend conquering Eritrea / Italian Somaliland and Albania, all of these can be performed by the CW in 1941 without any need from the USA.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 127
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/9/2007 4:23:43 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
I think we should consider going to the list for advice on all the major powers. This colection in its entirety is quite useful.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 128
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/9/2007 4:34:01 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I think we should consider going to the list for advice on all the major powers. This colection in its entirety is quite useful.

I've already hinted in that direction on the WiF Discussion List, but did not get answers.
Maybe someone else could ask too ?

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 129
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 3/9/2007 7:28:42 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The WiF Discussion List has had interesting comments posted recently.
I asked the contributors their permission to crosspost it here, for the game's interest.
Here they are :

**************************************************************************************
De: "claus Böhm" <claus_boehm@hotmail.com>
À: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
Objet: RE: [wifdiscussion] CW tips and strategy from « hardened veterans »
Date: mardi 6 mars 2007 23:07

a few tips...

Make sure to place all three US entry chits vs. Ge ..so even if USE rolls go
against you ...you can have a threat of attacking Italy and taking out a
transport or two ...

Take out Portugal on turn 1 ...(


to elaborate on my comment from the list ....when CW attacks Portugal its important to have a unit positioned in South Africa ready to grab the Portuguese colony there...so its not suddenly defended by Japan ...a good JP player WILL DO THIS ...since the doble-minorport there is an awsome staging point for a later supercombined-surprise attack vs. CW .... (In several games as JP I have seriously contemplated attacking Portugal myself to grab this very area ...or perhaps even Portugal itself and the Azores if CW is being a bit too timid ...*g* all it takes is for JP to sail a 5-range SCS into Italian east Afrika, rebase a couple of cps there on impulse 2 ...and reorg them with 2 4-range transports ...and voila JP can attack the African colonial holdings of Portugal on turn 1 ....with a bit more time to prepare JP can even make a gambit to grab Portugal itself with 2 divs + shorebombardment + CV support ....or just the Azores ...from bases in Libya )

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 130
General thoughts on strategy for CW - 7/28/2007 10:25:20 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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Well, I don't remember if this is already covered in the strategy for the CW, but I was thinking about this while going home from work this morning. I am playing the CW and the USA in our latest game (game report at http://perso.orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm / http://perso.orange.fr/froon/WiF/PartieXVII.zip) so I am quite active these days in CW thinking.

One thing that is important is to help US Entry.
One way to do this is to try to use each time possible of the "Support minor" US Entry if possible. Using this means that you need to be ready for this. This is also true for the French AIO who should try this especially with Belgium.

One other thing the CW can do to really hinder the EuroAxis, is try to Align Yugoslavia, when the Axis are on the process of doing it, and are attacking Greece. The only thing needed is to bring 4 units there. In our game for example, the Axis is onthe northern Greek border, ready to invade. I as the CW have 7 land units on the East Med shore (Malta, Libya, Egypt), 3 of them in a port with a TRS or AMPH. All I need to do is sail all those TRS, plus a 4th from Gibraltar or Aden, and load the people and unload them in Greece, and not die in between. I have all the necessary FTR cover and fleet cover to avoid dying at sea, all I need to do is not spoil these assets by sailing them for my initial main objective which is finish conquering Sardinia (Libya is conquered), and avoid losing all my CW troops in SW France.

I was writing this to stress that the AIO should be ready for such opportunities, and not spoiling them by following the main strategic plan.

(in reply to CBoehm)
Post #: 131
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - 8/17/2007 3:29:39 PM   
wfzimmerman


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Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline
I just picked up a copy of Sir William Slim's DEFEAT INTO VICTORY and it made me wonder how the CW AI will handle Burma and more broadly how it decides to relate with China.

_____________________________


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 132
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - 8/17/2007 5:47:07 PM   
composer99


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From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
If Japan has conquered Burma but does not go after India, the CW should definitely consider launching a campaign to retake it, with follow-up assaults into Thailand and even Singapore. This is once the Japanese Army is tied up all over the Pacific and the Navy is sitting at the bottom of the Pacific, though.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 133
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 8/17/2007 7:21:13 PM   
npilgaard

 

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I stumbled on some old strategy-advice someone wrote on the list (69134).
I have never tried it, and don't know how effective it is, but it does broaden CW's strategic options, so here goes:

"Now, depending on the game situation, you should strongly consider
an early CW declaration of war on Japan.

If the Netherlands is active you can reinforce the NEI oil on your
DOW impulse. Even crappy CW corps will be difficult for the Japanese
to dislodge. Also, get some CW CV's in position to port strike the
Japanese on the suprise impulse and target CV's, Amphs, and CP's.

YOU MUST GET A WHITE PRINT LAND UNIT INTO RABAUL ON THE DOW IMPULSE
if you are going to DOW Japan.

Depriving the Japanese of the suprise impulse and forcing them to
campaign for oil, Singapore, Rabaul can put an early stake
in their heart. Now concentrate your USE strategy on picking US
reinforce the Philipines and have a bunch of land units and a supply
chit at sea on TRS to rebase into Manila, Appari and Legaspi during
the return to base phase after picking the option.

Don't be afraid of trashing USE. While US production will be
lowered, if you can keep Rabaul and Manila the Japanese will crumble
and you can focus most of your effort on Germany. I have done this
several times and the Pacific War effectively ends in 1943."

_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 134
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 8/17/2007 8:23:50 PM   
Mziln


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From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

I stumbled on some old strategy-advice someone wrote on the list (69134).

I have never tried it, and don't know how effective it is, but it does broaden CW's strategic options, so here goes:

"Now, depending on the game situation, you should strongly consider an early CW declaration of war on Japan.

If the Netherlands is active you can reinforce the NEI oil on your DOW impulse. Even crappy CW corps will be difficult for the Japanese to dislodge. Also, get some CW CV's in position to port strike the Japanese on the suprise impulse and target CV's, Amphs, and CP's.

YOU MUST GET A WHITE PRINT LAND UNIT INTO RABAUL ON THE DOW IMPULSE if you are going to DOW Japan.

Depriving the Japanese of the suprise impulse and forcing them to campaign for oil, Singapore, Rabaul can put an early stake in their heart. Now concentrate your USE strategy on picking US reinforce the Philipines and have a bunch of land units and a supply chit at sea on TRS to rebase into Manila, Appari and Legaspi during the return to base phase after picking the option.

Don't be afraid of trashing USE. While US production will be lowered, if you can keep Rabaul and Manila the Japanese will crumble and you can focus most of your effort on Germany. I have done this several times and the Pacific War effectively ends in 1943."


This strategy would risk a large number of CW units. It would deprive the Japanese of a suprise impulse against the CW (and maybe France). All NEI oil would go to the CW.

quote:

US entry action 24: CW or France or both declare war on Japan (subtract 2 US/Japan entry pool chits with a 60% chance for subtracting a third)

If both major powers declare war on the same major power in the same impulse, only roll once. In all other cases, roll once for each declaration of war.



This makes "5.1 Trade agreements" and "19.9 Netherlands East Indies" interesting. Because there could be a situation where there was NO DOW against the Netherlands.

quote:

5.1 Trade agreements

Netherlands

The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.
quote:

19.9 Netherlands East Indies

You can’t move Allied land and aircraft (except Netherlands) units to the Netherlands East Indies until:

• you have chosen US entry option 51 (see 13.3.2); or
• Japan is at war with the Commonwealth; or
• an Axis land unit has entered the Netherlands East Indies.
Thereafter, there is no restriction.


< Message edited by Mziln -- 8/18/2007 2:13:59 AM >

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 135
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 8/17/2007 8:40:08 PM   
npilgaard

 

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Old posts from the list re strategic bombing:


quote:

Post:


(68750 Bryce):

" > Having just finished a game as Germanywith a VERY heavy US/CW bombing offensive, let me say that
> it is devastating for Germany. Not so much the actual bombing, because you know you have to use
> FTR to stop it.

I would concur, and add the following from a current game: our CW and US players built many Lnd4 and fairly early. They started with raids on the factories they could escort to (France, Belgium), but quickly switched over to first raiding every uncovered factory in range and finally escorting large raids into the Ruhr.

As the Russian player, I of course want them to give me more LL and to open a second front (I think the amount I've gotten is shabby). But I cannot complain when in the last year Germany has gotten 8 factories rubbled (6 of those in Germany), not to mention the PP lost (ain't double-dipping nice?) and of course the 4BP required to repair those same factories (32BP is ONE TURN of production out of 6).

My observation is that, once the Allies gain air superiority in an area, the bombing quickly escalates, with shot down Axis FTR almost as preferable as rubbled factories. Almost, that is.

Bottom line: strat bombing is VERY MUCH a valid strategy. But be careful that it does not begin to seriously impact your other goals (LL, territorial expansion, Italy, second front, etc.) whatever they happen to be. Forex, an aggressive Russian front and Allied strat bombing will NOT win the war for the Allies.

In games with oil rules, strat bombing can become much more important; if Germany is consuming 6-8 oil per turn fighting Russia, a concerted effort to put her on a crude oil diet can work wonders on the German limiting all his HQ-A from flipping, ground strikers flying, etc.

Finally, large bomber forces can take time off occasionally to bomb the front lines instead; D-Day can be pretty unfun when the whole Axis army has been flipped and/or carpet bombed by these huge bomber forces.

One caution here, while using your Lnd4 in this role occasionally isn't a bad idea, don't get married to it. You must threaten the German everywhere, overloading his resources so he has to spread out (while you 'concentrate'). It means that a lone German Me109 in the Ruhr is set upon by several of your FTR escorts. It means your short legged FTR guard the A-20's, B-25's and Tempests on the front (well, the Tommies would argue that their Tempests are self-escorting).

The ability to occasionally carpet bomb a key hex (even if playing carpet-bombing only shatters) is also pretty powerful. After all, if you do carpet bomb, the German must now have FTR near the hex to
counter carpet bombing, paradrops, ground strikes and ground support; it ain't often that they can achieve this FTR density. If the German has a key hex with too much air power guarding it, feel free to fly Lnd4 against it. If you get rid of a unit on a 9+, can the German allow you to have a +1 (or even a +2 with intel) on that hex? That's a 30% of tearing a hole in their lines. I think they'll fly.

The trick about carpet bombing (shatters or not) is simple; if there are less than 3 units in the hex, when you roll a high attack THEY ALL DIE. Even if the 15-5 SS ARM survived the carpet raid, it doesn't get blitzed onto the spiral by the attack. IT DIED. With shatters sometimes your best bombing result will be to hit the div and then roll a */2B or /2S on the corps left in the hex.

This applies somewhat to the Russian front as well; if you have the resources, carpet bombing hexes on supercombineds (even at night) is horrible, because the German doesn't have enough FTR to interdict every mission, and if you get lucky and shatter the 9-6 ARM, that hex is going to fall without an OC.

Not to mention targeting key HQ providing supply, taking one of those out is the holy grail since OOS Germans can't intercept your other air missions, and flipped OOS Germans are dogmeat against the Soviet juggernaut. 'Course, most Germans know this and keep those suckers in forest hexes (among other reasons).

My guess is that the Allies spend 1/6th of their strat bombers (or less) doing carpet raids; the exception is key invasion turns or the turns after they get ashore. Then you might see ALL the Lnd4 flying ground strikes or carpet raids exclusively.

The Soviets (if they build this ability) will use their bombers this way roughly 1/4 of the time (bombing Ploesti and serving as LR ground support/strike units takes the rest). You have to be willing to expend OC occasionally as supercombineds, otherwise flying in combineds and use your artillery to try and flip the units on the front at the same time. As you can tell, I prefer to leaven my Soviet land impulse OC with a couple supercombineds.

For all my gushing, though, bombing alone isn't going to bring the Axis to heel; they've already got their huge army on map. You need the Russian and/or a concerted Allied ground army to finish the job. So don't get distracted by bright, shiny objects in your force pool."


quote:

Post:


(68773 Bryce) :

" > The real cost here are probably that it demands a full air impulse
> each turn making it a very costly strategy indeed.
> Not in my experience. The US is usually popping a Supercombined a turn. The
> air wave goes during that impulse. Ike and your ATRs then reorg all of the
> stratbombers which rebomb during the remainder of the turn against unguarded
> factories where the German fighters are flipped, and/or with the Brits when they do
> their bombing runs.

Dave is right on the money. The Allies don't have huge land armies, but they do have (or should have) at least 1 OC (sooner for the US and later for the Soviets/CW) multiple OC per turn.

This is another part of that same old recurring thread; the Allies win WiF (or lose it) by (in)competent use of their ACTION LIMITS. Pulling a super as the US allows you to do everything, including setting up your CP protection, etc.

OC can of course be used in other ways. Don't knock playing an OC on an air impulse as the US (or the CW). If you've built a fair number of good FF units and they are in your front, a CW land OC coupled with a US air OC can tear the freaking heart out of a German defense. Forex, assume that the Brits have 2 hexes on a 25 defense stack of German blitzers. Using the 2d10 this is a -5 stack, pretty formidable. Let's assume that the Germans even manage to get 5 support in, for a 30 defense. Oh my.

The Brits get 2 stacks against it, doubled. Thats roughly 72? I think we can safely assume the stack is also flipped (hordes of planes can fly and they are pretty good). Next realize those US planes flying support give double factors; a good A-20 can lend 10 factors to this battle. And the west has how many again?

Not even counting paras or carpet raids or anything else, the Allies have a darned good chance of having a 4:1 battle (+8 +5flips +6blitz -5blitz +2HQ). A +16 attack (maybe less if the German HQ avoids the wave of ground strikes0.

In other words, the Allies can 'eat' 2 or more German kill stacks on their front a turn under ideal conditions (terrain and weather certainly play roles). The German should dread most rain turns and
positively fear endless JA44 turns.

Finally, don't forget the critical point here: when you do a super air or combined, you have the ability to unflip all those planes to fly again while Germany's air force has shot its bolt. In followup impulses your ability to just pile on unescorted bombers in battles will always generate higher odds, and ultimately higher losses.

After all, how often is your Soviet player going to give the German the respite to throw an air impulse and reorg? Even in the winter the Rompin' Stompin' Russian Red Ass is on the offensive. Or at least he should be, I've seen many recent posts from people where they seem to
be rebuilding the Soviet army later than I think they should be. But that's a whole 'nother post.

One last little item: the Allies have a second ability the Germans can never equal: paradrops. If you've built well, you can have 4 FF ATR on map, enough to ensure that EVERY attack you make will have 2-3 Para in them, ideally. A French ATR is worth 2 Brit or US ATR for mission purposes (not for reorg), yet they (and FF TRS/AMPH) are the most overlooked units in the Western arsenal.

What I am saying here is, 3 FF ATR and George behind your lines can fly 6 paradrops (3 impulses worth if each one has 2 missions). This continual bonus addition to your battles is easy to achieve, and requires the German to have even higher FTR density in his hexes to protect them. Somehow I don't think that's the case. Use them lavishly."

< Message edited by npilgaard -- 8/17/2007 11:52:12 PM >


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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 4:09:43 PM   
composer99


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I'm going to post a few distilled thoughts on CW convoy production and defences for the AI as I do not think we have gone into detail on this subject yet.

Building Convoys
The CW should pursue an aggressive convoy-building plan. If the CW plays a strong convoy defence, then it might be able to get away with not building many cps, just bludging off the free ones it gets for minor DoWs and the US, but it won't be able to do much else other than ship resources to the UK.

I would suggest the following buld plan:
39 - build 2 cps per turn
40 - build 3 cps per turn
41 - build 4 cps per turn
42 - build 5 cps per turn
43 - same as 42

Adjust to taste and strategic requirements, but be warned - going lower than these recommended levels may make things difficult in the late game, as we shall soon see.

Why Build so Many Convoys?
Don't we want pointy bits, too? Of course. But what are these convoys for?

(1) Replacing losses worldwide.
(2) Enabling the CW to ship lent resources & build points to France/Free France, the USSR, and China.
(3) Enabling the CW to receive lent resources & build points from the US and (occasionally) France/Free France.
(4) Ship, without substantial interruption, resources to the UK for production and oil where needed worldwide for saving.
(5) Have the reserves to be able to keep throwing out convoys for supply in places like the Med, North Sea, or South China Sea (if playing with Limited Overseas Supply).

Edit:
When to Stop
Chances are, if the CW and US have put an end to the German submarine threat, the CW can stop building convoys, as early as late '42 if they've done a real good job. It should be safe to do so when the following requirements are met:
(1) There are enough convoys world-wide to meet all the Allies' resource shipping and resource/build point lending requirements for the rest of the game.
(2) The Axis submarine threat is largely curtailed in the Atlantic and Murmansk run; and Axis fleet threats are curtailed in any theatre where CW convoys are running (esp. the Indian Ocean and Med).
(3) There is a reserve of convoys (between 1/2 to 1 dozen cp apiece) in each theatre to cover potential losses in the final stages of the war.
End of Edit

A Note on Lend-Lease
In order to keep the Allied economies humming at maximum, especially in 43-44, the Western Allies won't just be passing around some lend-lease. They will want to be passing around a huge freaking pile of lend-lease (resources & build points). I would estimate that from 42 on the USSR should be getting 5-10 bps and extra resources on top of that per turn; that from 43 on the CW should be getting 5-10 bps per turn; and from 42 on Free France should be getting 2-4 build points per turn. Add in resources & bps to China, too. Once France is liberated they will have room for extra resources and build points, and should certainly get some. By mid to late 44 the lending to USSR can probably slack off, so the French can pick up the slack.

This is to say nothing of the resources & bp the USSR should be getting from the moment it's at war with Germany (if not earlier if you pass Resources to USSR before Barb), and the resources the CW may need lent from the US during the dark days of 40-41.

So, how many convoys will all this lending require, especially in 43-44? Loads of them. And you don't want to be hobbled by shortages. So build a lot and defend them strongly.

Defending Convoys
There are four major "zones" of convoys: the "primary pipeline", that lifeline from US East Coast through the North Atlantic to either Bay of Biscay or Faeroes' Gap; the "southern lines", in the Caribbean, Mouths of the Amazon, Cape St. Vincent, Cape Verde Basin, Gulf of Guinea and Cape Basin; the "Murmansk run", the northern lend-lease route to the USSR; and the "Asia-Pacific" region, consisting of every sea area you're putting convoys through in the Asia-Pacific map, including (if needed) supply convoys in the Red Sea.

Each region has its own convoy defence requirements, which will vary depending on whether or not you are using SiF, SiF/CLiF, SiF/CoiF, or SiF/CLiF/CoiF.

Food in Flames: If you are playing with Cruisers in Flames (CLiF) and Convoys in Flames (CoiF), I would recommend that you play with Food in Flames (or allow the AIO to do the same). The CW alone will be on the hook for large-scale extra production requirements for light cruisers and ASW units, so it seems fair to give them some extra tools
to do the job.

The Primary Pipeline
The main pipeline is where the vast majority of your convoy capacity will sail through (and likely as not be sunk in). As such, it needs the staunchest defences.

SiF Only
Each of the sea areas in this region needs 2 cruisers (CAs) in the 4, 1, and 0 boxes. Consider using slow minor country CAs to provide extra oomph in the lower boxes. Each sea area also needs a NAV, preferably one with 3-4 factors, to intercept into the sea area during eligible naval combats. Do not EVER let these NAVs get committed to anything else. Any sea area that cannot get a NAV (usually the N. Atlantic before Azores are secured) must have instead CV/CVLs in the 1 and 0 boxes.

Once the US has passed the appropriate options, it should pump defences into as many sea areas as it is allowed to cover, including NAVs. Once it is in the war, it should boost your defences across the entire region, as well as taking over responsibility for at least one of the sea areas, freeing up your forces to defend other regions.

Long-Range NAVs: Consider building the 4-point NAVs (Sunderlands) to fly to the 4-boxes of the main pipeline. They will act as a good deterrent vs. the subs, and give you a 50% chance of finding and taking free potshots at the subs without threat of retaliation. You could instead use the 3-point NAVs, but I think they are better suited for offensive operations (naval air missions in the Med or port attacks in Europe or the Med).

As convoys become available from minor alignments or production, consider routing the resources from India/Africa and the Mouths of the Amazon through the main pipeline instead of up Cape St. Vincent. This concentration may seem like putting too many eggs in one basket, but more cps equals more ASW factors, and you then don't really need to defend Cape St. Vincent much, especially if you are not playing with limited overseas supply, aside from a CA or two in the 4 box.

CLiF
When playing with CLiF, substitute light cuisers (CLs) for CAs; if you have the spares have three CLs in the 4,1,0 boxes of each sea area of the main pipeline. For extra surface/ASW oomph, consider keeping one CA per box as well. Everything else, tactics wise, is pretty well identical to just SiF.

CoiF
You start with one ASW unit. Build more, aggressively. Consider bulding ahead, especially to get those precious, precious ASW CVs.

When playing with CoiF, you no longer get the ASW factors for convoy points, so the ASW units are absolutely necessary. You will probably want 3 factors of ASW units for every 5 convoys in the main pipeline, and an ASW CV in each sea area as well (2 ASW CVs in sea areas where you can't get NAVs).

Do not give up on using the NAVs just because you have ASW CVs, though. The good news is that once you have built and deployed the ASW CVs, you can send any CVs or CVLs doing escort duty in the main pipeline elsewhere, either for fleet actions (as part of the operational or reserve fleets) or for convoy escort elsewhere (especially the Murmansk run).

If you are aggressively building ASW units, the US will not need to build many. It should still build a few for use in the main pipeline with the goal of taking over the total defence of one or more sea areas in the pipeline so you can send the freed-up ASW units to other convoy routes, enhancing Allied shipping security (and hence the Allied economies) world-wide.

And now I have to go to work, so I will post more during lunch break and when I get home.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 9/6/2007 7:46:15 PM >


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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 6:26:52 PM   
brian brian

 

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Re-org points ashore is also an important part of convoy defense, which I'm sure Christopher was just about to mention.

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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 8:04:41 PM   
composer99


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The Southern Zone
The Southern Zone consists of the sea areas that Allied convoys run through south of the main pipeline, namely:
Caribbean, Mouths of the Amazon, Cape St. Vincent, Cape Verde Basin, Gulf of Guinea, and Cape Basin.

SiF Only
Each sea area in the Southern Zone that is within the reach of Axis submarines should have 1 CA in each of the 4,1,0 boxes and a NAV. They are rather remote from all but the longest-range subs and often do not have a lot of juicy convoy targets, and so will rarely if ever see the concentrations of subs that mandate a heavier defence. Only allocate the required defences when the threat becomes apparent (many of these sea areas will be inaccessible to the Axis until after the fall of France). You may not need to ever defend the Caribbean. Indeed, by the time there are Axis subs good enough to get there, the Americans should be in and able to do it themselves. When playing only with SiF, you may never need to defend Cape Basin unless the Japanese come to call.

One handy way to avoid running out of CAs is to use Free French ones. I suggest starting the game with 6-9 French CAs in Equatorial Africa to become Free French when the Vichy government is installed (unless by some stroke of misfortune Equatorial Africa goes Vichy). These can take up the load in remote areas like Gulf of Guinea or Mouths of the Amazon.

Cape St. Vincent: At set-up, you will probably need to route most of the convoys in this zone through Cape St. Vincent (the Caribbean convoys can go through the main pipeline). As such, it will initially need a strong defence of 2 CAs in the 4,1,0 boxes and a NAV. As suggested above, the convoys from Africa and India should eventually be shunted through Mouths of the Amazon and the Caribbean to the main pipeline, so you will then need at most 1 cp in Cape St. Vincent if you are playing with Limited Overseas Supply. At that point, Cape St. Vincent can make do with the same defences as the rest of the Southern Zone. If you are not playing with LOS, you can make do with a couple of convoys, and perhaps the 1-factor 6-range NAV, just to maintain supply to Gib and the Med if the German fleet comes sailing in.

CLiF
When playing with CLiF, use CLs instead of CAs at every opportunity. As you will probably be playing with German CX, you will need to attend to the defences of Cape Basin and the Caribbean from a much earlier time.

CoiF
Most of your ASW units will be committed to the main pipeline. I would only recommend adding an ASW unit to a sea area in this zone if there are enough convoy points that they would normally get an ASW bonus when playing with RAW. ASW CVs should not be necessary.

CVLs: If you have the spare CVLs (i.e. you don't need them for the main pipeline or the Murmansk run), consider using a couple for the 1,0 box of Cape Verde Basin and Mouths of the Amazon, which is pretty easy for Axis subs to reach from Italy or Brest if they have a range of 3, and if you have 5 or more cps in these sea areas. Or, you could just get the Americans to supply them.

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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 8:41:27 PM   
composer99


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The Murmansk Run
This consists of the two sea areas (Norwegian Sea and the one adjacent to Murmansk & Archangel, the name of which I can't remember) leading from Faeroes' Gap (where your convoys will probably be starting from by the time you send LL to the USSR) to the USSR's northern ports.

SiF Only
If you have less than 5 cps in the Murmansk run, you can get by with 1 CA in each sea area in the 4,1,0 box. If you have more, you will need 2 CAs. If you are running over a dozen cps along the run, then 3 CAs is better. But by that point the Free French and Americans should be taking over in enough sea areas that you can spare the CAs.

NAVs & CV/CVLs: This is a hard route to defend with naval air. For the Norwegian Sea, the best approach is probably CV/CVLs in the 1 and 0 boxes. For the Arctic Ocean (or whatever it is), I actually recommend getting the USSR to provide a NAV. If lending to the USSR is well taken care of, it won't be a great burden, and the USSR NAVs are actually pretty good (3 air-to-sea factors; if there's one with less, scrap it).

Norway: If the Allies decide to invade Norway in 41-42-43, at that point either the CW, the US, or even the USSR can provide a NAV to defend this sea area, based out of Narvik (the USSR won't need FTC to base there). But I wouldn't make convoy defence an important part of the strategic calculations behind such an invasion.

CLiF
As with the other convoy regions discussed, when playing with CLiF, use CLs in lieu of CAs to defend convoys. Other than that, there is no particular alteration in the discussion above.

CoiF
As with the Southern Zone, ASW units should only be incorporated as part of the convoy defence here once there are enough convoys that they would normally get an ASW bonus. ASW CVs aren't likely to be necessary unless there are more than a dozen convoys going through this pipeline, at which point they might be a good idea.

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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 8:42:42 PM   
Froonp


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About the CW Convoy Pipelines, I would not agree completely with what Christopher beautifuly exposed.

As a note, I attach a graphic that shows the sea area of the Game, with white boxes in each of them. I use that (larger) to setup my CW convoy lines, ticking the boxes with a pencil for each resources, and then counting the ticks to know how many convoys I need everywhere (hoping to be under the magic 81 number).

From that graphic, I think that convoy zones should not be cut into the categories that as Christopher has cut them.

I would cut them in categories relative the the range from the usual operational ports of the Germans & Italians hunters, that is western France.

There would be 6 broad zones for me.

- First zone, identified by a red outline around the white box, that is 1 Sea Area from the German hordes.
- Second zone, identified by a brown outline around the white box, that is 2 Sea Area from the German hordes.
- Third zone, identified by a yellow outline around the white box, that is 3 Sea Area from the German hordes (Central Atlantic should be in this zone, but I have the habit of avoiding it, and prefering using another way 1 sea area longer than having to defend this sea area).
- Fourth zone that would be all the rest west of Africa.
- Fifth zone that would be all the rest east of Africa and west of Honolulu.
- Sixth zone, that would be all the rest (basicaly between Honolulu and America).

First and second zone will usually (depending on the CP road chosen) contain lots of CP each, between 8-15 even more if OIL is tried to be saved in England.
Third zone will usually contain less CP, about 5-8.
The other zones will usually contain 1-2 CP except the Gulf of Guinea which will contain 4-6.

So I would base a system of defense on both these zones who are based from how far they are from the dangerous enemy, and how big the shipping is.

More later.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 141
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 9:14:28 PM   
composer99


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Asia-Pacific Zone
The Asia-Pacific Zone consists of convoys used to ship Australian resources to Canada or England through the Pacific (if they are set up that way); convoys used to ship Australian/Malayan/Indian resources to the UK through the Indian Ocean; convoys used to ship Asia/Pac map resources & build points to China or the USSR; oil convoys from Persia, Burma and the NEI - in other words, every convoy pipeline in the Asia-Pacific region, including the Red Sea.

Safe from Ge/It Forces: Provided the Suez Canal does not fall, this entire region is basically immune to attack by the European Axis (except for CXs, see the CLiF section below). On the whole, it is best to keep things this way. So defend Egypt! The real-life CW thought it was worth doing so, and so should the AI (or human players, for that matter).

Japanese Activities: The Japanese super-combined or naval that they usually pull when declaring war on the CW can lead to a very large one-time loss of convoys. It is probably better to take the early production hit and send the convoys home the turn or impulse before it happens to save having to build too many replacements for losses (save for some bare-bones supply lines if playing with LOS).

Once the Japanese cut the lines in this rear area, you will have a hard time re-establishing them until the Americans have tied up the IJN enough that they can't afford to spare ships for raiding. Your job will be made easier once the European Axis fleets have been blasted into oblivion and you can spare some fleet resources yourself to scare away raiders.

Americans in the Pacific: Once the Americans are at war with Japan, insist upon them providing the convoys and defences to shuttle resources out of or around the Pacific map (i.e. between the South China Sea and the US/Canada). This will free up convoys (and, if using them, CLs) for use elsewhere (especially the main pipeline if you need reserves or a jump in convoy numbers for an increase in lend-lease).

SiF Only
Given the size of your fleets and the demands of the other convoy shipping regions, the CW basically does not have the fleet resources or the NAVs to provide convoy defences in the Asia-Pacific Zone (this is another reason why not to let the Suez Canal fall into Axis hands). Just let things go along until the war with Japan starts, stay away from the sea while they have free reign, and return the convoys to duty once they the Japanese are out of the picture or you can spare the units to defend them.

CLiF
Even with the additional CLs, you will probably not have the ability to adequately defend every sea area in this zone (that is, with a CL in the 4,1,0 box of every sea area that can be threatened by CXs or other forces if Suez falls).

However, given the ability of CXs to operate out of neutral ports, you will want to be able to defend against them, so whatever defence you can drum up in threatened areas will be important, with the CLs you have on hand. Probably the 4 and 0 box of the most important sea areas can be protected. Alternatively, if you have enough convoy reserves, you can wait to commit the CLs until the CXs have sailed and searched, and go hunting for them then.

Conquest of Portugese Colonies and It. East Africa: CXs can operate out of these areas. Therefore, if you decide to attack Portugal, you should make an effort to take out East Timor and Mozambique. You will probably also want to at least capture the ports in Italian East Africa or liberate any ports in CW or French territory the Italians have seized to deny the CXs bases.

Japan: Not even with CLs will you be able to stand against a serious Japanese threat, although you can at least hold your own against Japanese CL raiders. The Japanese will also provide bases for German CXs, with not much you can expect to do about it until the Japanese are firmly on the defensive.

A Note on CXs: CXs can consume valuable German naval moves when Germany does a combined; they may not be able to spare many naval moves or naval actions, especially when engaged in a Barb. But as the Germans have to repair the CXs in order to get them on the map, they may not bother to do so if they would rather just invest in sub fleets. So keep an eye on things, and don't worry so much about defending the Asia-Pacific Zone if a threat is unlikely to arise or if the Germans only rarely (once every two or three turns or so) bother making use of their CX units.

CoiF
Chances are you will not be able to spare any ASW units for this zone except the Australian, NZ or Indian ones (if there are any). Use them for the main pipeline from India down the African coast shipping resources to the UK. Otherwise, let the Americans provide the ASW units, especially ASW CVs in the Pacific (which can give Japanese surface raiders & subs alike fits).

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RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 9:24:29 PM   
Froonp


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About the defense of the convoy lines, I generaly agree with what Christopher wrote, except that sometimes I felt it was written as if the CW had hundreds of BP to use to build NAV & ASW . I generaly find that I have difficulties having more than 1 Sunderland and 3-4 NAV3 for convoy covering before the end of 1942, and buildng ASW units. In our currect game for example (I am the CW), in late 42 I only managed 1 Sunderland and 3 NAV3 (who all ended up being Australians ) and 1 ASW unit. On the other hand I begun the strategic offensive against Germany, and have landed in Italy (next session we'll see if I'm repelled or not). So I'm stuck with defending my convoy lines with Cruisers and some BB in reaction where the Kriegsmarine could come.

About the defense against raider-like attacks, that is the CX proper, and the Japanese Cruisers in the Pacific, I tend to defend differently, more in reaction. I tend to only have light presence (1-2 cruisers) in the most important sea areas (Arabian Sea for example which is very important for the CW in the Pacific) in the 0 & 4 boxes, and waiting for the Axis to commit. I maintain a reserve of 6-8 cruisers and some CP to jump on them when they sorties.

For raider-like attacks, I find this better than covering each sea area lightly, because a too light cover is often not enough to sink the enemy ships and only manage at aborting them. Aborting them is good in the short run, but on the long run you end up being harrassed forever. I prefer trying to hammer them down definitely, at the risk of letting them sink my CP, that I try to replace later or make them using another route where the enemies are not.

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Post #: 143
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/6/2007 9:48:05 PM   
composer99


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General Notes
Other miscellaneous things related to convoy defences.

CoiF Subhunters
These are best used to aggressively restrict Axis subs near their ports of call. You will probably want two in each of the North Sea, the Bay of Biscay, and either Cape St. Vincent or the W. Med (depending on the availability of supporting fighters) - one to intercept them going out, and the other to intercept them coming back in.

You will probably need some fighter cover for the sub hunters in case the Axis decide to try and chase them away.

Port Strikes
Remember those 3-point NAVs? This (aside from naval air missions in the Med) is what they are for. According to Dave LeLacheur's article in the 2001 Annual about beating Germany, the Allies should aggressively port strike every German surface ship that dares base west of Stettin. I would add the point that they should aggressively port strike every Axis sub that dares base in a minor port; and they definitely should go after the Italian surface fleet at every opportunity.

Tactical Invasions/Paradrops
Also mentioned in LeLacheur's article is the notion of launching invasions of Brest and Bordeaux periodically to deny their use as sub bases to the Axis. If this can be done early in a turn before the subs have sailed, all the better.

Then, if they make the mistake of rebasing the subs anywhere outside of Germany or Italy, launch another tactical invasion with the goal of destroying them.

If a combination of port strikes, ground strikes (to soften up the invasion targets or nullify blitzing counter-attackers) and strat bombing has stripped away the air cover over the invasion targets, consider adding tactical paradrops to the menu to bolster the invasion (or just make the whole operation a paradrop).

In all cases, make sure you have the sealift on hand to quickly extricate the raiding units unless the Germans don't have the capability to instantly retaliate.

This is a great way to destroy Axis war material in 41-42-43 and force the Germans to commit more land and air assets to defence in the West when they would rather be doing something else.

Reorganization Points
As brian pointed out, having some re-org points (air, naval or HQ) available for reorganizing convoys is important, especially when making large-scale transitions such as moving the convoy lines from Bay of Biscay to Faeroes' Gap or from Cape St. Vincent to the Mouths of the Amazon takes place, not to mention reorganizing aborted convoys in the aftermath of an Axis romp in some sea area or another.

Proximity to Axis Threats
As Patrice pointed out, the convoy regions represent a useful shorthand for discussing convoy defences, but they are not the entire picture. The CW player or AI should be aware of where Axis submarines (and/or CXs) are based and where they are capable of reaching. On the whole, I would not be very concerned about subs/CXs that can only make it to the 1 box of a given sea area unless it has 11+ convoys (giving them a chance to find on a 3 or less in fine, rain or snow).

I myself would argue that even if the East Coast is more remote than, say, Cape Verde Basin, from Axis submarines, it is a juicier target because it will have 2-3 (or more!) times as many convoys. Thus, worth being considered a "principal" part of the convoy defence plan. But it can probably be more weakly defended, most of the time, than the North Atlantic or Faeroes' Gap will need to be.

Delegate, Delegate, Delegate
As mentioned in the individual posts above, the CW should encourage the other major powers to contribute to keeping the convoy lines open at every opportunity. The USA in particular is a key partner in this effort, especially as the Americans will often have many convoys themselves in the embattled sea areas as part of resource or build point shipping chains. The Free French can usually provide coverage to less-critical regions, and even the USSR can pitch in with NAV support (which requires no air missions on their part aside from (maybe) a rebase or two).

Edit:
The Best Defence is a Good Offence
Things like strategic bombing raids, campaiging against Italy in Africa, Sardinia, a Balkan invasion, a Danish campaign and raiding the Baltic, and the Italian campaign are all great ways to protect your convoys indirectly in 40-41-42-43. By reducing Axis production, forcing them to spend BPs on defensive units and aircraft, or making them use their precious naval movements defensively instead of to sortie subs, you can reduce your own requirements for convoy defences. The added bonus is that these things aren't just great defensive measures - they also contribute actively to winning the war in a more direct way than awesome convoy protection can manage.

(Thanks, Patrice, for reminding me of this in that last post.)
End of Edit

That about sums up my contribution to this side of the CW's war. I'm sure there's more to be said, and I hope everyone else will come up with it.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 9/6/2007 9:55:16 PM >


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Post #: 144
RE: General thoughts on strategy for CW - Knock Out Italy - 9/7/2007 1:21:43 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

That about sums up my contribution to this side of the CW's war. I'm sure there's more to be said, and I hope everyone else will come up with it.

I'm sure this is wrong .
I did not see your various convoys routes, listing convoys per sea area yet

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Post #: 145
Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 12:13:00 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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EDIT : There is an error in there (NEI TK counting) so I reposted the whole lot in a subsequent post, so ignore tis one)

Here is one example of CW Convoy route. The latest I used.
This is one that uses 79 CP (shows Tankers too).
It avoids the Med and have food in flames conditions satisfied (1 Indian / Australian / South African RP to UK).

CP = Convoy Points
TK = Tanker Points

UK (2 RP) = 0 CP
Cyprus (1 RP) Eastern Med --> Western Med --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of biscay = 4 CP
South Africa (2 RP) Rhodesia --> Northern Rhodesia --> Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 8 CP
Northern Rhodesia (1 RP) Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP
Canada (5 RP / 1 OIL) (2 PP produced there, 1 with Australian RP 1 with local RP. 1 Oil can be saved here or used for Reorg). East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 12 CP / 3 TK
Venezuela (3 OIL) to Canada (Oil saved to Canada) Carribean --> USA --> Canada = 3 TK
Port of Spain to UK (1 OIL) Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 4 TK (this one can be avoided, and so 4 more reserve CP gained, so this oil would be stored / used where it is produced and not stored in England)
British Guyana (1 RP) Mouth of the Amazon --> Cape Verde Basin --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP (this one avoids the Central Atlantic purposedly, to avoid having 1 more sea area to guard)
NEI to India / Australia (2 OIL) East Indian Ocean --> Bay of Bengal OR East Indian Ocean --> Cape Naturaliste = 2 TK
India 2 RP to UK around Africa (4 RP) (2 PP produced here with local RP) Arabian Sea --> Azanian Sea --> Mozambique Channel --> Cape Basin --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 16 CP
Persia to Kuwait (1 OIL) Persian Gulf = 1 TK
Australia 1 RP to UK through Panama (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> Capricorn --> Gulf of Panama --> Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 10 CP
Australia 1 RP to Canada (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> East Pacific --> Mexican Coast --> USA --> Canada = 6 CP

Total = 64 CP / 15 TK (79)


< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/7/2007 1:47:24 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 146
RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 12:41:00 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is one example of CW Convoy route. The latest I used.
This is one that uses 79 CP (shows Tankers too).
It avoids the Med and have food in flames conditions satisfied (1 Indian / Australian / South African RP to UK).

CP = Convoy Points
TK = Tanker Points

UK (2 RP) = 0 CP
Cyprus (1 RP) Eastern Med --> Western Med --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of biscay = 4 CP
South Africa (2 RP) Rhodesia --> Northern Rhodesia --> Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 8 CP
Northern Rhodesia (1 RP) Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP
Canada (5 RP / 1 OIL) (2 PP produced there, 1 with Australian RP 1 with local RP. 1 Oil can be saved here or used for Reorg). East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 12 CP / 3 TK
Venezuela (3 OIL) to Canada (Oil saved to Canada) Carribean --> USA --> Canada = 3 TK
Port of Spain to UK (1 OIL) Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 4 TK (this one can be avoided, and so 4 more reserve CP gained, so this oil would be stored / used where it is produced and not stored in England)
British Guyana (1 RP) Mouth of the Amazon --> Cape Verde Basin --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP (this one avoids the Central Atlantic purposedly, to avoid having 1 more sea area to guard)
NEI to India / Australia (2 OIL) East Indian Ocean --> Bay of Bengal OR East Indian Ocean --> Cape Naturaliste = 2 TK
India 2 RP to UK around Africa (4 RP) (2 PP produced here with local RP) Arabian Sea --> Azanian Sea --> Mozambique Channel --> Cape Basin --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 16 CP
Persia to Kuwait (1 OIL) Persian Gulf = 1 TK
Australia 1 RP to UK through Panama (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> Capricorn --> Gulf of Panama --> Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 10 CP
Australia 1 RP to Canada (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> East Pacific --> Mexican Coast --> USA --> Canada = 6 CP

Total = 64 CP / 15 TK (79)


Terrific.

I'll use this as the default for novices and as at least one of the choices for the AIO.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 147
RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 1:05:25 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is one example of CW Convoy route. The latest I used.
This is one that uses 79 CP (shows Tankers too).
It avoids the Med and have food in flames conditions satisfied (1 Indian / Australian / South African RP to UK).

CP = Convoy Points
TK = Tanker Points

UK (2 RP) = 0 CP
Cyprus (1 RP) Eastern Med --> Western Med --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of biscay = 4 CP
South Africa (2 RP) Rhodesia --> Northern Rhodesia --> Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 8 CP
Northern Rhodesia (1 RP) Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP
Canada (5 RP / 1 OIL) (2 PP produced there, 1 with Australian RP 1 with local RP. 1 Oil can be saved here or used for Reorg) East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 12 CP / 3 TK
Venezuela (3 OIL) to Canada (Oil saved to Canada) Carribean --> USA --> Canada = 3 TK
Port of Spain to UK (1 OIL) Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 4 TK (this one can be avoided, and so 4 more reserve CP gained, so this oil would be stored / used where it is produced and not stored in England)
British Guyana (1 RP) Mouth of the Amazon --> Cape Verde Basin --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP (this one avoids the Central Atlantic purposedly, to avoid having 1 more sea area to guard)
NEI to India / Australia (2 OIL) East Indian Ocean --> Bay of Bengal OR East Indian Ocean --> Cape Naturaliste = 2 TK
India 2 RP to UK around Africa (4 RP) (2 PP produced here with local RP) Arabian Sea --> Azanian Sea --> Mozambique Channel --> Cape Basin --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 16 CP
Persia to Kuwait (1 OIL) Persian Gulf = 1 TK
Australia 1 RP to UK through Panama (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> Capricorn --> Gulf of Panama --> Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 10 CP
Australia 1 RP to Canada (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> East Pacific --> Mexican Coast --> USA --> Canada = 6 CP

Total = 64 CP / 15 TK (79)

I did not have the time to finish my post.

This setup brings 14 RP and 2 Oil to UK, where you only need 15 resources to produce at full.

But it only leaves 2 CP as a reserve which is few and dangerous.
You can save some CP by not shipping both Indian RP to UK (shipping only 1), thus saving 8 CP. You will open this route when you'll have enough CP.
You can instead save some CP by not shipping one of the Canadian RP, saving only 3 CP.
This setup also does not cover the Red Sea, which is dangerous at some point in the game.

Anyway, this is only an initial setup, as the CW is supposed to build some (as Christopher advised, and with which I agree), and gain some by Minor Country alignements :
- Belgium : 2 CP
- Denmark : 4 CP 2 TK
- Netherlands : 4 CP 6 TK (not always)
- Poland : 1 CP
- Yugoslavia : 1 CP.

And sometimes :
- Greece : 6 CP 4 TK

There are also some resources that are not shipped :
- Malaya

And some resources that will soon be erratically shipped:
- Cyprus

There are also some new RP sources that will open up as the game evolves :
- Belgian Congo : 1 RP who needs 4 CP to ship
- Dutch Guyana : 1 RP who needs 4 CP to ship (avoiding Central Pacific)
- Portugal (eventualy) : 1 RP who needs 1 CP to ship
- Sardinia : 1 RP who needs 3 CP to ship
- Algeria : 1 RP who needs 2 CP to ship
- Senegal : 1 RP who needs 3 CP to ship

For each (well not each, it depends on the number of Oil that the CW actualy brings to the UK, here it is 2, but it can be more later) of those RP that the CW ships to UK, this is one more Oil that the CW can save.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 148
RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 1:08:21 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Here is one example of CW Convoy route. The latest I used.
This is one that uses 79 CP (shows Tankers too).
It avoids the Med and have food in flames conditions satisfied (1 Indian / Australian / South African RP to UK).

Terrific.

I'll use this as the default for novices and as at least one of the choices for the AIO.

Well, wait a minute, this one is a special setup that avoids the Med and leaves few reserve CP (though I indicated in my subsequent posting an easy way to have 8 more reserve CP).

A more traditional Route would use the Med, and arrange for the route to switch later.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 149
RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 1:10:34 PM   
Arron69


Posts: 115
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
Really nice.

I cant belive that i have never taken venzuelan oil to canada, i allways brought it over the atlantic... but this make a lot more sense.

Andi

_____________________________

The winner of a battle may not be the one who wins the War.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 150
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