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Unplayable? - 8/14/2007 2:30:23 AM   
Rossj

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 8/8/2004
Status: offline 		I think I'm a reasonably intelligent guy...I guess I thought wrong
I find the game mechanics and rules too complexed. I love WITP and other complexed games...many of them seem intuitive so you can spend most of your time coming up with strategies, not figuring out how to play it.
I'll stick to FORGE OF FREEDOM
Post #: 1
RE: Unplayable? - 8/14/2007 4:02:08 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		thanks for your post, but if you are having trouble there are plenty of folks willing to help you.
Have you played through the tutorials?
What specifically are you having trouble with?


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It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 2
RE: Unplayable? - 8/14/2007 7:53:48 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rossj

I think I'm a reasonably intelligent guy...I guess I thought wrong
I find the game mechanics and rules too complexed. I love WITP and other complexed games...many of them seem intuitive so you can spend most of your time coming up with strategies, not figuring out how to play it.
I'll stick to FORGE OF FREEDOM


Wow. FOF and WitP not hard compared to AACW? Wow. I find the interface easy in comparison to all other games.

(in reply to Rossj)
Post #: 3
RE: Unplayable? - 8/15/2007 2:36:15 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		I'm very surprised also. WITP is level 10 complexity to me. ACW may be would be a single 6/7 compared.

_____________________________


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Post #: 4
RE: Unplayable? - 8/15/2007 9:29:23 PM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		I've found that with both WITP and AACW I've had to be patient about restarting campaigns when I realized I'd missed important components, due largely to diving in without reading the manuals more thoroughly. WITP is more unforgiving because of the lack of tooltips. But I "mastered" it after a while and I still play regularly after three years. I think the same will be true of AACW -- it seems like it has a huge replay value. And the pleasure of seeing a well-planned effort come to fruition is well worth the time spent.

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 5
RE: Unplayable? - 8/16/2007 3:33:04 AM   
heroes99

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline 		Well for me

WiTP - is the most comlex game for me and I will never learn and able to play :)

FOF - is not a very complex game , just that the interface is awkward and take times to figure it out , it put me off the first time and I am now revisitng before I deciede to get AACW

AACW - Only try the demo -  a bit more complex but the game interface is much easier , good tutorial ( use the pictorial tutorial  together , the ingame tutorial text not so good )

(in reply to MrBoats)
Post #: 6
RE: Unplayable? - 8/16/2007 5:01:37 PM   
carnifex


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From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
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quote:

I love WITP and other complexed games...many of them seem intuitive so you can spend most of your time coming up with strategies, not figuring out how to play it.


This is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on these forums. You're talking about WITP, right? The game where after how many years now and over 28 thousand threads and still no one can give a clear explanation on things like optimal bombing attitudes, HQ bonuses, Japanese production, or how to effectively load ground and air units on transports?

/chortle

(in reply to Rossj)
Post #: 7
RE: Unplayable? - 8/16/2007 5:15:51 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

quote:

I love WITP and other complexed games...many of them seem intuitive so you can spend most of your time coming up with strategies, not figuring out how to play it.


This is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on these forums. You're talking about WITP, right? The game where after how many years now and over 28 thousand threads and still no one can give a clear explanation on things like optimal bombing attitudes, HQ bonuses, Japanese production, or how to effectively load ground and air units on transports?

/chortle


You said it best!

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 8
RE: Unplayable? - 8/16/2007 9:27:39 PM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		witP is an easy game to play, you just have to work at it, experiment and come up with your own style. The game mechanics can be difficult if you don't want to spend time to learn the game.
By far and wide, witp has given me the most for my money out of all the PC games I have ever played.
AACW is becoming one of those games as well.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 9
RE: Unplayable? - 8/16/2007 11:24:12 PM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		I'll second Gem35's last post on both counts. WITP has earned it's price in the hours of good gameplay I've gotten out of it, and AACW is getting there. I think the key to both is getting an organized approach to the turns together and sticking to it. WITP can seem overwhelming, but once you've broken it down into a set of planning phases it's a heck of alot easier to handle. Of course, this is coming from a man who will spend 12 hours at a time playing it!

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 10
RE: Unplayable? - 8/17/2007 12:03:03 AM   
SittingDuck

 

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Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rossj
I'll stick to FORGE OF FREEDOM


Perhaps you should, son. Perhaps you should.

(in reply to Rossj)
Post #: 11
RE: Unplayable? - 8/17/2007 12:24:56 AM   
heroes99

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats

I'll second Gem35's last post on both counts. WITP has earned it's price in the hours of good gameplay I've gotten out of it, and AACW is getting there. I think the key to both is getting an organized approach to the turns together and sticking to it. WITP can seem overwhelming, but once you've broken it down into a set of planning phases it's a heck of alot easier to handle. Of course, this is coming from a man who will spend 12 hours at a time playing it!



The MAIN difference between getting into WITP and AACW is the tutorial provided by AACW , it really help you to learn the basic of the game and I enjoy it very much

With WiTP , I really have no idea what to do :) but I will go for my third attempt to learn this game which has been with me for so many years


< Message edited by heroes99 -- 8/17/2007 12:29:08 AM >

(in reply to MrBoats)
Post #: 12
RE: Unplayable? - 8/17/2007 1:12:16 AM   
chadandpia

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/12/2007
From: San Mateo, CA
Status: offline 		Heroes99,

If WiTP is too intense or complex, you can always get Uncommon Valour .. I think it's still just as intense and complex but a LOT more manageable since it's map is on a smaller scale.

WiTP is built off of it's engine so once you learn UV then WiTP will come easier to you and you can learn all of the other advanced goodies that WiTP provides that UV didn't have implemented in it. =)

(in reply to heroes99)
Post #: 13
RE: Unplayable? - 8/17/2007 2:14:17 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		WitP has such a wide scope, there really is no right or wrong, black or white concrete "everyone has to play the game this way" approach.
It's up to you as commander in chief to decide what altitude your Bombers and Fighters fly at or what type and how many transports you use in an invasion. If you play the game you will know which to use and when. HQ units give bonuses based on their command radius. There are tons and tons of threads in that forum that answer all of your questions. If you still don't know, make a post and some of the veteran experts will gladly point you in the right direction.

WitP is the greatest pacific war game ever made and will be for years. You don't have to agree, we all have our opinions, but to say it's unplayable and as this AACW game has been tabbed as unplayable, most folks with some common sense can scoff at these claims.

Happy gaming everyone.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 14
RE: Unplayable? - 8/26/2007 4:53:34 AM   
General Quarters

 

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline 		I played Uncommon Valor, which is sorta the baby-sized WitP. For a player who does not like too much detail, it was tedious, but nevertheless certainly playable, and everything was documented in the manual. It was a very carefully crafted game, hard to fault on its own terms. I would say the same about AACW.

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 15
RE: Unplayable? - 8/26/2007 7:40:32 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline 		You should like the game if you liked the demo at all. The game is much more suttle and you have more to deal with. I think that a lot of players have trouble with all the info and things you do each turn. To me it is sort of like facing the complex problems that were there when the war was fought.
one thing that I have never seen (correct me if I'm wrong) is that each save game can be set to go back a large number of turns by hitting the right button on the keyboard. What a neet feature.

Madgamer

(in reply to heroes99)
Post #: 16
RE: Unplayable? - 8/26/2007 7:44:39 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline 		BOY! Am I glad I read this! I thought I was the only one who felt this way. I never had the courage to admit it :-). In spite of what you say I STILL LOVE IT.

Madgamer

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 17
RE: Unplayable? - 9/7/2007 4:15:14 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		I'll admit up front that I don't play AACW or WitP, but I do own BoA and UV; the only thing these two games have in common is that they are both turn based. Aside from that, how could you possibly compare them?

Different wars, different tactics, different operational levels, etc. Besides, when was the last time you dragged and dropped an army in WitP?

_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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Post #: 18
RE: Unplayable? - 9/7/2007 11:22:30 AM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		AACW and WITP are similar in many ways. The complexity and depth of the games makes them both somewhat difficult to learn, but the rewards gained are well worth the effort. Of course the mechanics are different, but the necessity of keeping an eye on the logistics, strategy and command considerations is the same. It's just as satisfying in AACW to take a major Confederate city as it is in WITP to take Iwo Jima -- you know you've earned it.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 19
RE: Unplayable? - 9/7/2007 2:41:17 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		OK, but complexity and depth are generalizations that could easilly be applied to many games. How exactly are these games alike?

Compare AI; BoA plays like a chess computer, but almost everyone plays UV/WitP PBEM. What does that tell you?

As for learning curve, it took much longer for me to "master" UV than BoA, even though AGEOD immediately produced a series of patches after BoA's release that completely changed its logistics (v1.12/1.12a), compelling me to relearn BoA several times over. Still, BoA/AACW is still much less confusing/frustrating than UV/WitP, at least according to the player posts in their forums.

But if you don't buy that, just compare these game's manuals; hard copies vs. (lengthy) pdfs!

And aside from the software, AGEOD -- a relatively new company -- responds quickly to game questions, which is more than I can say for Matrix; it's rare when Wood et al grace the UV/WiTP forums, whereas POCUS seems almost omnipresent by comparison.



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Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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Post #: 20
RE: Unplayable? - 9/7/2007 8:02:08 PM   
JReb


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

... but almost everyone plays UV/WitP PBEM.



Just wondering how you determined that. I have never played WitP PBEM because it would seem to take too long to reach the end. Has anyone actually finished a PBEM from 1941 to 1945? How long did it take them, 2-3 years?



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Post #: 21
RE: Unplayable? - 9/7/2007 9:52:34 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		You're the exception to the rule; almost everyone complains re WitP's AI, so they play PBEM, at least according to what's said on its forum.

As to how long it takes to actually finish a PBEM of WitP from 41-45, try posting this query on its forum; frankly, I don't think it's ever been done before.

WitP PBEM turns can take so long that some play UV between turns, so it's difficult to compare these games with AACW/BoA. At least I can finish AGEOD games within a week or two.







_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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Post #: 22
RE: Unplayable? - 9/7/2007 11:01:35 PM   
Sardonic

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline 		I cant see how anyone that has waded thru the first turn of WitP as the Japanese, could possibly say
ACW was complex.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 23
RE: Unplayable? - 9/8/2007 7:07:12 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Wargames like these are an exception to the rule. You can say Age of Empires or Medieval total war series are complex. Sure but the real grognards agree AACW and WitP are where it is all at. Give them a look and you may be surprised you are spending countless precious hours of your time enjoying these classics.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 24
RE: Unplayable? - 9/8/2007 1:33:08 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		AACW is 10 times less complex than UV (did'nt try WitP) ! You really don't need a PhD to form armies, make them marching around, then fighting, levy some troops, raise funds ...
What beffudles some of you so much ?


(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 25
RE: Unplayable? - 9/8/2007 2:57:59 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
AACW is 10 times less complex than UV (did'nt try WitP) ! ...
What beffudles some of you so much ?


I don't know; I still think comparing these games is apples and oranges.

Just compare loading troops and supplies unto ships in AACW/BoA w/WitP/UV. How many times have you tried to load entire divisions w/its supplies on a Grigsby fleet w/o having to repeat the process/trip several times in order to get the whole unit(s) where you need it?

Another strategy is to load lone transports in single TFs one at a time, and then combine them; time consuming!

In BoA, either all the army/artillery/wagons load on the fleet, or it doesn't; if it doesn't , keep the units you really need and then start removing the ones you don't until you're good to go, then go. It's that easy.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 26
RE: Unplayable? - 9/9/2007 12:55:32 AM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well,

I formed a transport TF in WITP this morning with a sufficient number of AP's, selected the division to load and clicked on the appropriate command. The extra space on the TF was automatically loaded with supplies. I set the destination with another mouse click. Pretty simple. Just about the same amount of time it took me to form a fleet in AACW, form a division to be transported, drag and drop the division onto the fleet and drag the fleet all the way across the map to its destination.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 27
RE: Unplayable? - 9/9/2007 12:57:09 AM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline 		There is a tutorial of sorts in WitP and it is worth a look. I am glad to see your going to try again as it is worth the time. Do make sure you have all the patch's and updates installed. It really is a great game. I keep thinking that If Gary G. applies his usual attention to detail to his up coming American Civil War game......just think...A Civil War Game with detail like WitP....a very scary fantastic thought indeed.

Madgamer

(in reply to heroes99)
Post #: 28
RE: Unplayable? - 9/9/2007 1:14:31 AM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

OK, but complexity and depth are generalizations that could easilly be applied to many games. How exactly are these games alike?

Compare AI; BoA plays like a chess computer, but almost everyone plays UV/WitP PBEM. What does that tell you?

As for learning curve, it took much longer for me to "master" UV than BoA, even though AGEOD immediately produced a series of patches after BoA's release that completely changed its logistics (v1.12/1.12a), compelling me to relearn BoA several times over. Still, BoA/AACW is still much less confusing/frustrating than UV/WitP, at least according to the player posts in their forums.

But if you don't buy that, just compare these game's manuals; hard copies vs. (lengthy) pdfs!

And aside from the software, AGEOD -- a relatively new company -- responds quickly to game questions, which is more than I can say for Matrix; it's rare when Wood et al grace the UV/WiTP forums, whereas POCUS seems almost omnipresent by comparison.


Why do they have to be similar to be compared in a general way? Above what MrBoats said they are both ground breaking games. There could never be a better Pacific War game than WitP and in its own way AACW is a ground breaking game on the ACW. Both are strategic level games and both use a system that is like no other game of there type.
Lastly for gamers of either period they offer a game situation that has depth and is a challenge to play

Madgamer

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 29
RE: Unplayable? - 9/9/2007 1:21:15 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		It's still easier to load several arimes w/wagons and artillery in AGEOD games than loading multiple divisions in UV/WitP TFs.

And I don't even want to think about those load/unload pdf files.

In AGEOD, I have more control over loading, unloading and -- if I change my mind -- rearranging them all via drag and drop.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to MrBoats)
Post #: 30
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