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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell

 
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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 7:47:30 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		industry situation

usually I would not give thius numbers away... but this game will probably stop as soon as the new version is public.




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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 7:48:11 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		my reserve of A/C
I try to keep it historical





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< Message edited by swift -- 8/27/2007 7:57:04 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 7:50:26 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		and now one of the nice moments in the last turn - Gavin probably will comment this
A 15h AF bomber group got seperated on its way back to Italy....and it got punished




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< Message edited by swift -- 8/27/2007 7:56:33 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 7:51:40 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		NI situation in the night




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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/28/2007 2:18:37 PM   
davidjruss


Posts: 235
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Derby, England
Status: offline
Swift,

I notice that the "clouds button " is not on ( presumably to enable posting of screenshots to show as much information as possible ) Do you play with clouds on in normal play or is it disabled all of the time ? Do you find using the cloud feature is of any use when playing against an oponent ?

DavidR

(in reply to wernerpruckner)
Post #: 185
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/28/2007 2:52:13 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		2nd December 1943. A: 116/2038 (25 aa) X: 85/1319 (1 gd). Notable losses this turn include 12 P-38L, 3 P-47C, 19 P-47D, 7 A-20C, 8 B-26B, 10 B-17F and 45 B-24J.

MTO:

Gavin probably will comment this A 15h AF bomber group got seperated on its way back to Italy....and it got punished

Worse that that, one out of the three Lib J groups (the 98th BG) attacking Hafen Freudenau PORT turned back before reach the target (just), probably down to it losing 4 planes plus 2 damaged in one atack by those pesky Me410's. Verdammt Zerstorer.... It looks like the losses were increased by the delay of the target-leg escorts due to weather, but there were enough P-38L squadrons plotted for the penetration-leg escorts to put up a fight; 12/240f 45/95b 73e. The target took 100% which was nice, but the 15th AF bombing force is currently too small to withstand this kind of attrition and maintain any sort of operational tempo. This wasn't unexpected on deep penetrations. Expect a few rest turns.

ETO: Fatigue reduces the scale of the 8th AF bomber effort, and a token two forces of two groups of B-17F each go to targets around Cologne and achieve little - no LW reaction and bombing scattered by weather onto ToO's; 0/360f 10/127b 4e. A 9th AF B-26 raid to Liege RR attracts some response but the 9th AF fighter groups are getting tired, 19/110f 8/64b 27e. Still, at least the weather was good enough to permit strategic raids for 2 days running.

BC: 5 Group sent 351 Lancasters to Bunawerke RUBBER for some cheap SB points. 147 report bombing the factory area, which is acceptable but disappointing for a large target being hit by well-rested night bomber units, for 2 losses. Wilde Sau active on the target and return, but neither they nor the intruders achieve much, with 1 Bf 110 being destroyed RTB'ing.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/28/2007 2:53:05 PM >

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Post #: 186
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/28/2007 9:19:50 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidR


Swift,

I notice that the "clouds button " is not on ( presumably to enable posting of screenshots to show as much information as possible ) Do you play with clouds on in normal play or is it disabled all of the time ? Do you find using the cloud feature is of any use when playing against an oponent ?

DavidR


David,
I do not always play with clouds on...I tend to turn them on sometimes when there are lot of small scale raids on the map.
Sites can be under a certain protection with cloud cover...also landing in clouds can be dangerous - but we have no way to let a unit land on another A/F.

Also in the night clouds are an interesting thing - more clouds over a target area - more sightings for my NFs ( as it is historically correct....)



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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/30/2007 12:03:24 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		3rd December 1943. A: 39/690 (13 aa), X: 30/597 (6 gd). Main losses - 7 P47C, 19 P-47D, and the first 2 P-39's for two months as they return to action with 326, 327 and 329 French Sqns in Corsica. The re-equipment of the 9th AF RAF sqns to the Mustang is proceeding while the replacement of the Spit Vb units in MAC with their Spit IXs is interrupted by the auto-upgrade trying to upgrade my 2TAF Polish and Czech Spit Vb wings. Gnngh. I'm not picking on them, BTW, they just appear last.

MTO: Lots of fighter attacks on AF's and RR dodging the weather.

ETO: A couple of sweeps by 9th AF P-47D groups attract some combat and catch some Fw190's RTBing at Athies AF. Otherwise quiet, but the mighty P-47D is doing it's valued job of maintaining attrition in between the main attacks. It has the performance to fight on equal terms with the Axis fighters, the range to get out to AF's beyond the coastal zone and stay in the fight, the speed to get there before the low-fatigue slow reaction times favoured by certain players kick in , the bombload needed to occasionally damage targets and best of all, it's available in sufficient quantity to actually sustain operations. Respect the Jug!

BC: Suprise, suprise and 6 Group stage yet another LGO raid on Dortmund Herne PORT (48/288b bomb), although the supporting mossies all get there and bomb (1/24b).

4th December 1943. A: 99/2128 (31 aa), X: 83/752 (2 gd). 30 P-38H, 12 P-47C, 13 P-47D and 24 B-26B.

MTO: More sweeps and strafes by the fighters. The 33rd FG doing a sweep of Vicenza (long flight up the Adriatic to get the LW units alert) takes heavy casualties (all 30/48 P-38H), but I'm a galactic Dark Lord and as such the success of the following P-38L attacks on airfields around Venice is more interesting as they catch a few interceptors.

ETO: Twin 8th AF B-17 raids to RUBBER plants around Hannover attract little attention and do little damage (0/374f 6/200b 16e) while the 56th FG manage to bounce some 109G6/R6's RTBing on the way back from the tactical fight and is now level with the 78th FG on 105 kills. The main action centres on the 9th AF supporting raid to Gladbach AF (13/92f 24/63b 46e) and the following 2TAF Mitchell raid to Evere AF (0/182f 0/72b 12e). While I lost more B-26's than I'd like, they and the P-47's in the tactical forces are there to soak up Werner's attention and it's good to see him using up 109's on them rather than the strategic raids where bomber losses actually mean something.

BC: 1 Group hit Berlin for the first time in a month. Seems like a decent raid, 7/289 Lancaster Is. 205 Group (OK, not BC, but they are night bombers) hit Budapest with 1/172b lost. For once they manage a decent raid, with all bombloads reported within the city area.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/30/2007 12:07:21 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/1/2007 5:27:56 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		5th December 1943. A: 36/1372 (19 aa), X: 22/287 (1 gd).

MTO: 15th AF bombers hit Linz-PCD RUBBER for 99% damage and nil LW resistance - 1/207f 0/96b 0 e. Excellent. The main action takes place against the tactical raids, and for once these are almost all escorted bomber raids (normally I use the fighters to bomb airfields and RR). The main fights are small scale ones in the north against the Corsican forces of US A-20's and RAF B-25D's, 12th AF 3/138f 1/62b 8 e and MAC 3/71f 7/48b 12 e. (Another LGO on the 12th AF raid on Vicenza AF )

ETO: Some P-47D strikes against AF's, nothing to get excited about.

BC: 3 Group hit Geisecke in the Ruhr for what looks like a concentrated raid - 2/270b and no NJG reaction.

6th December 1943. A: 195/3019 (30 aa), X: 133/1898 (6 gd). Big fight! Main losses are 25 Spit Vb, 13 Spit IX, 9 P-38H, 23 P-38L, 9 P-47C, 13 P-47D, 4 P-51B, 8 B-25D, 65 B-17F and 2 B-24J. This is the kind of turn I need to get on a regular basis, even if I'm not quite getting that magic 10% attrition per turn (Axis losses/sorties) I'm aiming for.

MTO: 15th AF bombers hit Electrochemische CHEM at Munich for substantial damage. Almost nil LW resistance, although a heroic 109 Gruppen tries an attack on the last leg of the return route over the southern Adriatic after the bingo fuel bug on the escorts makes it safe for them to approach the bombers. 0/237f 2/96b 2 e. This is the second time in two days the LW have wimped out of fighting the 15th. Excelleurrnt.... . Most of the fighting takes place against the tactical fighter strikes on the NW Italian AF's, which is fine by me.

ETO: The Mighty Eighth head to chemical sites around Frankfurt in three forces of 128 B-17's with maximum escort; Ludwigshafen-Oppau, Farbwerk Muehlheim and Veith RUBBER all take reasonable damage (over 50%) for 42/577f 65/384b 127e. All is quiet until the combined force gets just south of Bonn and heads east on the inbound leg, whereupon all hell breaks loose. Some hard fighting follows, with well-rested and full strength Zerstorer Gruppen breaking down some B-17 groups on the return leg. The supporting tactical raids against AF's attract some fighting as well, with most of the pain being suffered by the Spit Vb escorts to the 2TAF Mitchells, although their Spit IX top cover get some revenge - 25/328f 5/65b 16 e. The 9th AF Marauders wreck Dusseldorf AF for 3/145f 1/64b 18e. A 2TAF Mossie FB raid tries to sneak in amongst the confusion to hit Dortmund Roeder STEEL, but comes in too late and gets intercepted. The Spit IX escorts do well, but no damage to the target - 7/64f 5/24b 10e. The usual Tiffie raid to Belgium goes ahead without incident, and a Mossie flight does a low-level strike on Cherbourg VSITE.

BC: 4 Group hit Cologne-Rhine PORT for a concentrated raid with Mossie support - 1/216b and 0/24b. NJG are active for a change, but only one bomber lost for two Wilde Sau RTBing and one NI lost to flak in return.



< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/1/2007 5:31:39 PM >

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Post #: 189
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/2/2007 2:12:44 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		7th December 1943. A: 37/854 (12 aa), X: 29/443 (0 gd). A quieter turn due to weather and the need to rest the bomber units. Losses included 8 P-40, 4 P-47C, 15 P-47D but in return I've destroyed 380 Axis aircraft in the last week of game time, which is on course to my goal of over 1,200 per month.

MTO: Fighter strikes on AF's and RR as usual, most of the action centering on MAC P-40 and P-39 raids escorted by Spit IX's on Lucca and Pontedera AF's.

ETO: A P-47 Group attacks Gilze-Rijen AF.

BC: 5 Group to Magedburg for 4/352b and 0/23 Mossies to Emden RR, this time the NJG come up to fight in limited numbers and lose 8 Bf 110 G-4 and a couple of Fw 190 Wilde Sau, much to my satisfaction .

< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/2/2007 2:15:10 PM >

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Post #: 190
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/2/2007 6:21:46 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		8th December 1943. A: 30/1017 (21 aa), X: 6/120 (0 gd). 17 P-47D, 10 A-20C.

MTO: The 12th AF tactical bombers hit some Italian industry sites and take their punishment from the Flak (as well as some opportunistic following-to-base by Stab JG 53). The MAC tactical strikes on Pontedera and Lucca AF's reveal the air bases on the coast opposite Corsica have been abandoned. Good news even if it cost me some fighters (I'm very slack about recon, but I usually keep the Italian AF's under surveillance even after I give up on the French/Belgian ones thanks to the excessive mandatory VSITE targeting for the tactical units).

ETO: A couple of P-47D strikes on Gilze-Rijen get hammered without getting anything in return as the AF is also empty; suprising given that these were well-rested 8th AF groups rather than my exhausted 9th AF FG's who normally get put through the ringer on these attritional AF strikes without mercy. At least OKL are having to move their fighters about to evade me, which is a good sign.

BC: 6 Group hit Stuttgart-Neckar PORT with LNSF support for what looks like a concentrated raid - 1/288b and 0/24b - although no NJG are claimed by the NI's this time. Cologne-Rhine PORT PR'd at 96% damage after the 4 Group raid two nights ago, so BC are pulling their weight on the SB front at the moment.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/2/2007 6:25:45 PM >

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Post #: 191
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/3/2007 5:46:55 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		9th December 1943. A: 51/2411 (10aa), X: 51/648. 22 P-38L, 4 P-47D, 3 P-47C, 9 B-17F, 4 B-24J.

MTO: 15th AF attack Pressburg RR near Vienna inflicting minimal damage, and get a fight for once - 13/238f 4/96b 55e. Various tactical raids by fighters mostly against Italian RR, including one to Zagreb RR by the 12th AF P-38H's.

ETO: The 8th AF go to targets in western France, mostly to avoid bad weather over Germany. The main force attacks Dunlop RUBBER for 100% (13/336f 6/96b 8e), while a later combined raid by two small forces ineffectively attacks industrial sites around Nantes (0/144f 3/128b 0e). The 9th AF and 2TAF mediums do little damage to their tagets on the Seine estuary and see no combat.

BC: 1 Group attack Hohenbudberg RR in a concentrated raid (0/288b)with LNSF Mossie support (0/24b). No NJG resistance and no NI claims.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/3/2007 5:47:46 PM >

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Post #: 192
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/5/2007 2:37:30 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		10th December 1943 Mislaid my notes for that turn, although I remember 3 Group hit Wedau.

11th December 1943. A: 14/1213 (8 aa), X: 1/72 (0 gd). 6 B-24J.

MTO: 15th AF bombers to Steyr RR, practically no resistance for 99% damage - 0/240f 6/96b 0e. Various fighter tactical raids around Italy, nothing too remarkable. PR reveals OKL has withdrawn entirely from Italian AF's, which is a substantial victory for the Allies. However, this does mean I can expect higher losses for my strategic forces given that the LW is moving out of range of the tactical forces. No matter, I am a Galactic Dark Lord and I care not for the fate of my minions.

ETO: Nothing exciting by day due to low cloud, but 4 Group hit Kassel-Weser PORT in an excellent raid, all units bombing the target area - 1/216b. No NJG activity and no NI claims.


< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/6/2007 1:40:59 PM >

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Post #: 193
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/6/2007 1:23:20 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Stay tuned!
for the next turn - called "bloody hell"!!!
next turn you will see losses of more than 500 aircraft !!
200+ heavy bombers killed, but also huge German losses.
 
more information by Gavin aka fochinell

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/6/2007 1:36:44 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		12th December 1943. A: 306/2524 (24aa), X: 260/2688 (0 gd). A major bloodbath , but while the Axis losses are high, Werner's concentration on my bombers leads to very heavy B-17 losses. It will take a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division of the 8th AF after today's slaughter. 15 Spit Vb, 2 Spit IX, 14 P-38L, 2 P-38H, 2 P-47C, 22 P-47D, 9 P-51B, 228 B-17G. I've hit the 10% attrition I wanted, and inflicted more than 250 losses on the LW, but the price was steeper than I wanted - Werner inflicted 12% attition on me, and more importantly cost me almost 1 B-17 per a/c destroyed.

MTO: Lots of tactical fighter strikes in Italy, a few cancelled by weather. The only combat is between a 12th AF P-38H group and one of the Stab units OKL have left behind in southern Italy. Just for variety, today's LGO raid was a P-40 strike on southern Italian RR.

ETO: Armageddon. Three joint forces of B-17G's head into the Reich for a deep penetration attack under maximum escort - two forces of 132 B-17's each to Bernberg and Ammoniawerke CHEM, with a smaller force of 68 to cut back at a point on the inbound route to hit Continental RUBBER at Hannover. All is quiet until the force gets past Kassel, when OKL throw everything and the kitchen sink in. The Zerstorers do most of the damage again, but lose eighty in return. The NJG join in for a cripple hunt at the end, losing almost all of their 28 NJG and 10 WS lost this turn in the day battle. The 56th FG overtake the 78th this turn by means of some good RTB kills on the way in to cover the exit route (123 kills vs 112). Result - 41/615f 228/332b 335e for minimal bombing results, with only Continental taking any kind of visible damage. The 9th AF Marauder raid in support comes in too early and too shallow, but does some useful damage to Fridrich-Alfred STEEL in the SW Ruhr as well as claiming some RTB's - 5/158f 0/64b 39e. The 2TAF Mitchells going to industry near Brussels absorb a lot of slant-range flak, and lose some fighters despite 132 Sqn doing superbly with their Spit Vbs - 10/146f 4/72b 16e. A Typhoon and a mossie FB raid into western France do little, while a Spit Vb strike on Tille AF loses some Spit Vb's for no result.

BC: 5 Group to Stettin. A good but not outstanding raid, with about 85% of the bombers on target. 3/352b to flak, NI's make 4 claims. Wedau and Hohenbudberg RR PR'd at 99% damage which makes me feel a bit better.

PS - one of the losses was F/Off W. Balard of 351st BG, who became the only B-17 ace shortly before his death....

< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/7/2007 12:24:12 PM >

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Post #: 195
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/7/2007 12:20:12 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		13th December 1942. A: 32/1321 (17a), X: 15/395 (6 gd).

MTO: Tactical strikes by fighters on RR sites in Italy, with an A-20 raid on a Genoese CHEM FAC. No opposition.

ETO: Fighter sweeps to active AF's by the 8th and 9th AF's, some useful combat despite half the sweeps being cancelled due to weather. Too small-scale for any pretence at allied success, however. Still, it keeps the fatigue levels up.

BC: 6 Group to Dortmund - 5/330b plus 0/24b mossies. Some NJG activity. Most bombloads within the large urban area, but not a concentrated raid. Stettin PR'd at 46% RR damage.



< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/7/2007 12:21:50 PM >

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Post #: 196
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/8/2007 12:02:46 AM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		14th December 1943. A: 39/2690 (26 aa), X: 1/139 (0 gd).

MTO: Various ineffectual fighter strikes on Italian RR. A skirmish over the Adriatic with returning 15th AF P-38L's is the only excitement.

ETO: The 8th AF stage major attacks on some of the same targets from two days ago wth three forces of 160 B-17F with full escort, but provoke zero LW reaction except for some stragglers being picked off. The bombing goes well, with Bernberg CHEM 63%, Continental RUBBER 88%, and then for ironic impact the third force miss their primary and secondary and hit Weserhutte ARM for 99%. Shame the 9th AF supporting raid hits the same target... Overall 0/531f 14/480b 0e for the 8th and 0/154f 2/64b 0e for the 9th. The 2TAF Mitchells hit Hamm-Dynamit ARM for 63% for a suprisingly good bombing result as well - 3/390f 1/72b 0e.

BC: 1 Group attack Halle for what looks like a decent raid - 0/291b, and 205 Group hit Graz for a concentrated raid. NJG are active in small numbers against the Halle raid, and lose 1 to NI's while 1 Mossie NFII goes down to Flak. Dortmund RR PR'd at 76% damage, so the BC campaign against the major RR's is slowly paying off.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/8/2007 6:52:48 AM   
Joel Rauber

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)





Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?


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Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/8/2007 11:47:32 AM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Rauber


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)





Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?



yes indeed

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/8/2007 4:52:33 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?

No, IMO playing out 'historical' raids in BTR will give you double the historical casualties, easily. Interceptions tended to be less conclusive in RL, and especially when it involved relatively high-flying, fast and well-defended B-17 formations.

(in reply to Joel Rauber)
Post #: 200
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/8/2007 5:01:37 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		15th December 1943. A: 100/1049 (15 aa), X: 53/1150 (0 gd). 61 B-17F lost and 10% casualties for the allies means a tactical success for the LW, damn them

MTO: The usual fighter strikes on Italian RR, no air combat.

ETO: A heavily-escorted small-scale B-17 raid to Iserlohn RUBBER is defeated by a major LW reaction (check out OKL's sortie count). I was expecting Werner to take another rest day rather than take the bait of a minor raid with substantial escort. Instead he turns the tables on me with a massive assault as the raid crosses Holland, which eventually turns the bomber groups back before reaching the target. This is mainly due to the combat taking place before my target leg and return leg P-47 escorts arrive for the sections I anticipated resistance. The inbound leg LR escorts of one P-38L and one P-51B group fight hard, but are simply overwhelmed, and the bombing force is too small to defend itself effectively. 26/300f 61/64b 73e. A 9th AF P-47 sweep in support helps slightly on the inbound leg, while a 2TAF mossie raid hits Hoechst Plastique and escape before the LW units in France can get to the scene.

BC: 3 Group to Essen in a concentrated raid for 7/264b lost, all to Flak with no NJG response. Halle RR PR'd at 59% which is a little disappointing for last night's major Lancaster raid.

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 201
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/8/2007 8:00:25 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		16th December 1943. A: 24/521 (7 aa), X: 2/259 (0 gd).. Low-energy bad weather turn.

MTO: The usual tactical stuff, fighter strikes vs RR, no air combat.

ETO: 9th AF FS to Tavaux AF comes off badly against a major response from the LW in France, taking 12 P-47D losses. An FC sweep to Schipol AF does a little better earlier in the day, but overall losses for no return.

BC: 4 Group to Handels-Hafen PORT. Looks like a good raid, 0/216b with all bombs in the target area. No NJG response.




< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/8/2007 8:01:05 PM >

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Post #: 202
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/9/2007 7:56:25 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
Ohh... Someone sprung the the Big Ambush!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: fochinell

12th December 1943. A: 306/2524 (24aa), X: 260/2688 (0 gd). A major bloodbath , but while the Axis losses are high, Werner's concentration on my bombers leads to very heavy B-17 losses. It will take a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division of the 8th AF after today's slaughter. 15 Spit Vb, 2 Spit IX, 14 P-38L, 2 P-38H, 2 P-47C, 22 P-47D, 9 P-51B, 228 B-17G. I've hit the 10% attrition I wanted, and inflicted more than 250 losses on the LW, but the price was steeper than I wanted - Werner inflicted 12% attrition on me, and more importantly cost me almost 1 B-17 per a/c destroyed.


Only a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division, fochinell?? In replacement aircraft maybe but what about experience and morale effects??

I'm sure swift will agree he can't do this too often as this level of e/a losses is giving you what you need to win but if this type of counter attack can blunt the edge of Allied Bomber forces for a time, it might just well be worth it.

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Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 203
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/9/2007 2:17:12 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		Only a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division, fochinell??

Yep, they're back on the attack on the 18th December, weather permitting.

In replacement aircraft maybe but what about experience and morale effects??

Exp accumulation is low - replacement pilots are no worse than existing veterans at this point, given high attrition. That changes later on, but it's not a problem just yet. The 1st BD groups were down to 16 aircraft and around 20-25% morale, but all ten groups are over 50% morale now (I rarely use strategic bomber units with less than 50% morale - their bombing accuracy suffers too much).

I'm sure swift will agree he can't do this too often as this level of e/a losses is giving you what you need to win but if this type of counter attack can blunt the edge of Allied Bomber forces for a time, it might just well be worth it.

At the moment I stand to gain more than I lose; I've always got 40-50% of the 8th AF bomber units held back in reserve, as the 480-strong B-17F raids on 14th December 1943 indicated. The Axis player needs to do this kind of damage on about three consecutive turns to make this work by crippling morale in my estimation. Swift likes his fighters to have high morale for high efficiency, so I'm usually guaranteed a turn or two afterwards where he concedes the skies to me. Which means he lets his tactical victory slip into strategic defeat.. heh heh heh



< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/9/2007 2:32:45 PM >

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 204
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/9/2007 2:30:03 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		17th December 1943. A: 66/2012 (19 aa), X: 21/457 (0 gd). Small-scale tactical defeat for the allies. 18 Spit Vb, 17 Spit IX and 12 Typhoons.

MTO: The usual Tac fighter strikes on Italian RR.

ETO: Moderate-scale 8th AF attacks on transport targets; Bonn and Troisdorf RR hit for 65% and 60% damage respectively by two groups of B-17F each. Almost zero resistance. 0/400f 1/124b 3e. The 9th AF Marauders cover the return route by hitting Stahlwerk Krieger STEEL for 81% against nil resistance - 1/123f 3/64b 0e. The main combats are against the supporting 2TAF tactical raids over Belgium; a Spit Vb strike against Evere AF loses 11/69f 4e, the Mitchells bombing Brussels/Midi RR lose 16/223f 3/67b 4e and a Typhoon strike against Lesquin CHEM loses 6/72f 12/72b 11e. So a bad day for the RAF. I expect the Tiffies to get massacred if they get caught, but the crapulence of the Spits is tiresome; the IX should be a more dangerous opponent than this. Sottevast VSITE gets hit by another Tiffie strike for 100% damage, but who really cares about the VSITES?

BC: 5 Group to Cologne. Looks like a concentrated raid, with 1 lost to small-scale NJG activity for 1 NI kill. 4/352b.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/9/2007 2:31:11 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 205
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/10/2007 1:08:37 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		18th December 1943. A: 21/2289 (6 aa), X: 22/449 (0 gd). Minor tactical success for the allies. 8 P-47D were my maximum losses by type.

MTO: The usual fighter strikes against Italian RR.

ETO: 8th AF launch heavy attacks. Three forces of 100 B-17G from the 1st Bomb Division - who have just finished rebuilding after the massive losses of the 12th - hit transport targets around Magdeburg. No resistance on the way in, and Madgeburg RR hit for 62%, Magdeburg-Elbe PORT 66% and Rothensee-Elbe 99%. The Luftwaffe do send some fighters up to patrol over a waypoint on the way back north of Dortmund (cripple-hunting), but these end up getting sandwiched between the supporting 2TAF raid covering the return leg on one hand (following 9th AF raid is too late to join in the fun) and the 8th with their escorts on the other. They didn't do too well trying to bounce 8th AF Thunderbolts on the way home before that, either. Bad luck Werner. The icing on the cake was some accurate bombing by the mediums for once. Overall results - 9/613f 2/300b 13e for the 8th, 0/163f 0/64b 0e Ummeln BBFAC 99% for the 9th and 4/317f 0/71b 11e Ludwig BBFAC 47% for 2TAF.

BC: 6 Group hit Mannheim, all bombloads reported in the city area but it looked like creep-back into the N and NW area of the town. 1 NI kill for 2 Mossies lost to Flak. Cologne RR PR'd at 99% - go 5 Group and Essen RR at 79%.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/10/2007 1:09:26 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 206
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/10/2007 10:51:29 PM   
medaloffairness

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: swift


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Rauber


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)





Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?



yes indeed



Hi my addicted fellows,

I suffered from the problem with the pilots in the game who stay in combat although they have a very little chance to survive.
In the game I used the Me109 G14 to attack the escort fighters as soon as possible in order to reduce the height of them and to force them to drop their additional tank bottles...
Of course they outnumbered my Me109 G14 by 1:10 so I after they attacked them once or twice I ordered a recall to their bases in order to avoid the problem mentioned above.
It works not that bad but:
Unfortunatly they remain at their altitude when they leave the combat :-( so if an escort fighter crosses the path of my mighty fighters turning home they are shot down easily (I had the impression that fighters with an order to fly home do not really defend themselves or even enter an aircombat).
Therefore I suggest that the axis planes with an recall order to their bases will fly as low as possible and with combat speed or above (MW50 speed boosters) but high enough to get out of the plane with their parachute if they are engaged and hit (3000 feets).
I think in the manual it says that a combat is only possible when the difference in altitudes of the planes from different "post offices" is minor then 2500 feet. Therefore the german planes heading home were low over the ground are out of danger afterwards.

The allied player doesn`t have a real disadvantage because of this german tactic and can use it too. Over and above of it, the allied player can conduct a fighter sweep beneath the allied bomber raid to "collect" such dispersed german units at 6000 feet.

If it would be introduced in the game then I think it would be more realistic, because some years ago I had the chance of interviewing one FW190 pilot who got POW in 1945 (Operation Bodenplatte) and attacked bomber formation at the end of 1943 and 1944.
He said that it was only possible to attack a bomber formation once, sometimes twice... but if they have fighter escort then you have only one chance... after the first attack you have to dive very quickly in order to get out of the range of the fighter escort. The fighter escort had the choice of following them which would cause a splitt in the fighter escort or to stay with the bombers. Another tactic the german used was to place Me109-K fighters at a very high altitude above the bombers. Their job was to distract the fighters and made choice a bit harder for them to leave the bomber formation.
The germans who left combat by going deeper and faster aimed for certain areas where they knew (if possible) massive flak (anti aircraft)was located in order to get help from the ground if they were followed by allied fighters. He told me that the flak on the ground was his real wing man in late 1944.
Sorry for the last paragraph.. but maybe this is interesting for some others as well.


As a summary I can say that I think it is possible to reflect the evasion from the scene in the game... maybe some other think so too..

It would be nice to hear some pros and cons...

At this point I also have to say that this is really a great platform for discussions... I think I am the only one in Vienna (Austria) who plays this game but it is my favorite one since its release... Thanks to all...

Best Regards Chris



(in reply to wernerpruckner)
Post #: 207
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/10/2007 11:24:17 PM   
von Shagmeister


Posts: 1273
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Dromahane, Ireland
Status: offline 		Swift lives in Wien, though I think he is originally from Linz.

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Per Speculationem Impellor ad Intelligendum


(in reply to medaloffairness)
Post #: 208
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/10/2007 11:40:05 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

Swift lives in Wien, though I think he is originally from Linz.


never lived in Linz

born in Carinthia ( St.Veit an der Glan )
lived in Salzburg, Klagenfurt, Völs (near Innsbruck), Spittal an der Drau, Graz and Vienna

went to school in Völs, Spittal an der Drau, Vienna and Klagenfurt
Visited the University in Graz

at the moment living an working in Vienna

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(in reply to von Shagmeister)
Post #: 209
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/10/2007 11:41:27 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

 I think I am the only one in Vienna (Austria) who plays this game but it is my favorite one since its release... Thanks to all...


I know at least three others here in Vienna

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