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Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly return a... - 9/7/2007 3:34:23 AM   
jimmy_wishbone

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 9/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ok -

Here I am thinking – “hmm.. interesting conflict that has not been over covered in releases, probably worth grabbing and playing for a while.” Ooooooops. So, I should have probably checked the forums for a bit of intel before purchasing GOA. A sticky post with a great overview of how to start playing the game is a solid indication that designer's user interface is going to be amazingly painful. Sort of the thing the dude that writes the game code should have figured out. Errr… that plus a graphic with unit value explanations. Thank you Lava for doing Frank Hunter’s work for him, your post is a life saver.

GOA definitely earns points as the least intuitive release in the last 5 years. Pretty pop-ups providing nearly meaningless information. Scrolling the map with a mouse? Ummm.. sorry, didn’t make the feature list. I could understand having to crank through a game manual to pick up some new and unique approaches to managing the operations of units. I’m sorry, I seem to remember working with unit counters on hexagons about 25 years ago. Earth shattering advance, not so much. Pain of interface, extraordinary. Matrix, you should pull this from your line-up, it’s bringing your reputation down.

Thanks
Jim
Post #: 1
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 3:53:38 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Bye-byyyyeeee.......

(in reply to jimmy_wishbone)
Post #: 2
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 4:41:30 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Between the FAQ and excellent AAR by JP Falcon stickied at the top there is all one would need. Yes the manual is lacking some pertinent info and the scrolling is a nuisance(arrow keys work fine) at first but there is alot of game here. Give it a chance...it's pretty deep.

< Message edited by TheHellPatrol -- 9/7/2007 4:43:35 AM >

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 6:16:36 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I have been wargaming since board game days (Avalon Hill).  I bought this Saturday and I am already thinking this may be one of the best wargames I have come across in a long time. 

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Post #: 4
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 6:52:28 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Jimmy,

Thanks for your feedback, but in this instance you may not want to judge a book by its cover. Make sure you get the latest update and give it another chance.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 7:16:05 AM   
Joel Rauber

 

Posts: 195
Joined: 10/4/2000
From: Brookings, SD, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: . . .I seem to remember working with unit counters on hexagons about 25 years ago. . . .



Counters and hexagons have a lot going for them, its why they have been around for a while.

On a bit more serious of a note, looking at reviews and info would have quickly told you that this is a counters and hexagon game; which should have prevented the purchase.

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(in reply to jimmy_wishbone)
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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 7:34:01 AM   
Sardonic

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 12/1/2005
Status: offline 		Shortsighted and unfair.

Frank does excellent work. Possibly you are simply spoiled

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Post #: 7
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 9:03:11 AM   
freder

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/29/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimmy_wishbone

Ok -

GOA definitely earns points as the least intuitive release in the last 5 years.
Thanks
Jim



I always wondered why so many people got in trouble with the interface. I admit it took me about 10 minutes to figure it out, one day to feel comfortable with it. Oh well, I guess it's an IQ problem.

(in reply to jimmy_wishbone)
Post #: 8
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 10:55:20 AM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		I think GoA is pretty simple.  Its much easier and more intuitive to me than, say, Hearts of Iron 2, and HoI2 isnt even a real grog title like GoA is.

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 12:05:56 PM   
Radagy


Posts: 333
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From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

I always wondered why so many people got in trouble with the interface. I admit it took me about 10 minutes to figure it out, one day to feel comfortable with it. Oh well, I guess it's an IQ problem.


It is not a a matter of IQ.
Try to imagine GOA with a "Battlefront" interface: it would be the perfect strategic wargame.
Just a matter of designer's priorities I think, but the interface is definitly below current standards and the manual should be entirely re-written.
Nevertheless the game is quite a good one, fun to play, immersive, with one of the best AI around.

(in reply to freder)
Post #: 10
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 2:10:23 PM   
Noakesy

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 5/26/2005
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quote:

It is not a a matter of IQ. Try to imagine GOA with a "Battlefront" interface: it would be the perfect strategic wargame.
Just a matter of designer's priorities I think, but the interface is definitly below current standards and the manual should be entirely re-written. Nevertheless the game is quite a good one, fun to play, immersive, with one of the best AI around.


I think this is absolutely spot on - the interface isn't nice, but it's adequate, but when you compare it to those wargames recently released like BF it's quite some way behind. The upside is that the game is very good and has a good historical feel - can't have everything I guess

(in reply to Radagy)
Post #: 11
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 2:54:59 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		There's some useful stuff in the FAQ/AAR that helps, but really I would like to know more detailed stuff like retreat mechanics and how which naval units are destroyed or not (I have seen naval units sink or disappear when I know they have received fewer hits than their protection allowance)

Also, would it be possible to get a list of destroyed friendly units as a report in the game?  Naval and land units.

(in reply to Noakesy)
Post #: 12
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 4:20:24 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		The OP makes some valid points, but I think he is getting carried away with his criticism. I get the feeling that he is one of those people who likes to jump right into a game without having to read the manual or put any effort into learning the mechanics of the game engine. GOA does require some effort on the player's part, to understand some of in nuances of the game. A more detailed manual would help immensely here. Calling on Matrix to pull the game in order to save their reputation is simply rediculous.

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 4:24:48 PM   
themattcurtis

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 2/9/2005
Status: offline 		I think every title I have from Matrix has one thread along these lines. Someone who's never posted before comes in, tears the game a new one, and then everyone feels the need to jump in and defend it.

It's pointless.

You're not going to change his opinion. His opinion doesn't impact yours. You never see from him again.

Best case, he's a disillusioned gamer who feels burned by his purchase. He'll get over it. Worst case, he's trolling and looking to spark reaction from the people here.

If he came looking for advice, or had a question, or was offering actual feedback, that'd be something.

This thread is something else entirely. Ignore it.

(in reply to jimmy_wishbone)
Post #: 14
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 4:54:20 PM   
Joel Rauber

 

Posts: 195
Joined: 10/4/2000
From: Brookings, SD, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis

I think every title I have from Matrix has one thread along these lines. Someone who's never posted before comes in, tears the game a new one, and then everyone feels the need to jump in and defend it.

It's pointless.

You're not going to change his opinion. His opinion doesn't impact yours. You never see from him again.
. . .



My reply wasn't meant so much for the original poster as for other newbies who may casually come by this thread before purchase. I assume most of the responses are meant in that vein, along with wanting to support what is basically a good game.


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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/7/2007 11:42:47 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Exactly! I didn't want his skewed opinions to deter anyone from buying the game.

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Post #: 16
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/8/2007 1:13:18 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jimmy_wishbone
...Matrix, you should pull this from your line-up, it’s bringing your reputation down.

Thanks
Jim


Jim, If I were you, I would not be so judgemental so early on. I agree, as others have, that the manual is lacking and the interface "quirky", but the game is simply great fun...and that's all I expect of a game. I would like a great manual (and it could do with one) and I'd love a nice "poppy uppy" interface, but the game mechanics are good enough to overcome these issues.

You've already spent the money, if I were you, I'd stick at it and see what it really has to offer. Besides, there have been others like you who have posted similar as you, only to find sticking with it actually rewards you...

The game is great and well worth the effort.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 9/9/2007 4:49:54 AM >

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/8/2007 1:42:05 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freder


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimmy_wishbone

Ok -

GOA definitely earns points as the least intuitive release in the last 5 years.
Thanks
Jim



I always wondered why so many people got in trouble with the interface. I admit it took me about 10 minutes to figure it out, one day to feel comfortable with it. Oh well, I guess it's an IQ problem.



..Or just laziness. If j_w gives it another good 1/2 hour of effort, he will feel an urge to return to apologize.

Perhaps it's time for Matrix to begin development on an USB device that will fit neatly in an ear, or perhaps up a nose for quick downloading and assimilation of rules.


(in reply to freder)
Post #: 18
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/8/2007 9:52:34 AM   
freder

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


Perhaps it's time for Matrix to begin development on an USB device that will fit neatly in an ear, or perhaps up a nose for quick downloading and assimilation of rules.







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Post #: 19
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/9/2007 3:32:49 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		ooops!  Wrong Door.  THis is not the quite room......  

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/10/2007 3:31:27 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		To be fair to the OP, it is a bad interface. Once you figure out how to use it, it's not unusable, but it's certainly not "natural" or intuitive. Ultimately, the game UI shouldn't be an IQ test; if I have to think really hard to figure out how to use the UI, it's a bad UI, not a sign of my mental deficiency.

Of course, despite that fact, I quite like the game, so I don't agree with his general conclusion at all. Point though is that even games I like can have major faults, and the UI is a major fault in this game.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 21
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 12:44:30 AM   
TheBlackhorse


Posts: 291
Joined: 6/21/2004
Status: offline 		Man, what an odd OP.

Jimmy has 1 post to his credit and that is to come here and slam GoA... Yet, he claims knowing matrix and their catalog well and good like he's been here for ages. Then he doesn't even return to respond to those who answered him.... It's just baffling.

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 22
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 2:28:28 AM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

To be fair to the OP, it is a bad interface. Once you figure out how to use it, it's not unusable, but it's certainly not "natural" or intuitive. Ultimately, the game UI shouldn't be an IQ test; if I have to think really hard to figure out how to use the UI, it's a bad UI, not a sign of my mental deficiency.


I must say I am honestly confused by this. I didn't have any trouble with the UI in this game at all.

What's so hard about it?

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 2:35:13 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		It's difficult to know - the most concrete thing mentioned by others so far seems to be lack of mouse scrolling....which I agree is a bit inconvenient but hardly game breaking or owrthy of the sort of condemnation that the UI is attracting.

I suspect (but cannot prove of course) that the game is "simply" 1/ too groggy for a lot of people - WW1 isn't RTS, or fantasy or sexy or trendy, and 2/ the UI is actually so simple that people are having trouble coping with a lack of complexity!

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Post #: 24
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 2:38:47 AM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

It's difficult to know - the most concrete thing mentioned by others so far seems to be lack of mouse scrolling....which I agree is a bit inconvenient but hardly game breaking or owrthy of the sort of condemnation that the UI is attracting.


To be honest, I didn't even really notice that. Sure, I do usually scroll with the mouse with other games, but when it didn't work I reached for the arrow keys without a second thought. Only when people started moaning about it here did I really think about it.

quote:

I suspect (but cannot prove of course) that the game is "simply" 1/ too groggy for a lot of people - WW1 isn't RTS, or fantasy or sexy or trendy, and 2/ the UI is actually so simple that people are having trouble coping with a lack of complexity!


Well, it is a grog game, but it's nowhere near as bad as many - TOAW looks to mine eye like something else in terms of complexity. The graphics are poor by modern standards but its a wargame, it doesn't need graphics.

The thing about refitting where you had to cycle through your whole army, that really was poor. But Frank has fixed that up, and right clicking on a unit and hitting 'refit' - really, how can it be any more intuitive than that?

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RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 2:56:25 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		he he...TOAW is complicated....but then it does a lot.....but then I don't use all of it's features either.......I really enjoy it....perhaps I'm too used to vastly complicated UI's!!

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 26
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 6:05:02 AM   
Joel Rauber

 

Posts: 195
Joined: 10/4/2000
From: Brookings, SD, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
. . .

The thing about refitting where you had to cycle through your whole army, that really was poor. But Frank has fixed that up, and right clicking on a unit and hitting 'refit' - really, how can it be any more intuitive than that?


Refitting works much nicer in V1.1 as you say, I do wish that after refitting one unit that the stack wouldn't go back to its original stack order. But that's a very minor thing.


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Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

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Post #: 27
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 6:41:59 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Rauber


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
. . .

The thing about refitting where you had to cycle through your whole army, that really was poor. But Frank has fixed that up, and right clicking on a unit and hitting 'refit' - really, how can it be any more intuitive than that?


Refitting works much nicer in V1.1 as you say, I do wish that after refitting one unit that the stack wouldn't go back to its original stack order. But that's a very minor thing.



How about adding a "Fully Refit" to the context menu instead of forcing me to do:

Click Unit
Choose Refit
Move mouse to popup.
Click Reinforce
Click OK.
Move mouse back to next unit (which is probably adjacent to the one I just reinforced)

Wouldn't it be easier to have an option on the context menu of "Refit Full"? That way all I'd have to do is:

Click Unit
Choose Refit Full
Click next unit (which is probably about 10 pixels away)

Lets face it, probably 95% of the time you're doing a full refit anyway.

(in reply to Joel Rauber)
Post #: 28
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 7:03:39 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		I always thought that it would be good to have an optino to auto refit all units of a natinoality up to a certain level - eg you might get all the French Corps to 18 points, or all the Russian ones to 16 or something like that, possibly with a minimum starting level - so you would refit all corps over 10 points up to 16....the system would calculate how many points you had and advise how many you're going to use and have left over.

but Frank is jsut a one man band, and the system does work as is, and I wouldn't want to load him up too much!!

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Post #: 29
RE: Wow - First time I've ever wanted to instantly retu... - 9/11/2007 9:26:26 AM   
boogada

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 8/17/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I don't understand that soo many people have problems with the UI. Ok, I have done very little war game playing in the last years. (I think the last game I playes extensively was 'Clash of Steel' in the late 90's, so I'm used to 90's UI's) Everything works, the actions are seperated into turns and everything can be done easily. OK, mouse scrolling would be nice, but I don't notice this once I start playing. 

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Post #: 30
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