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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

 
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 9:17:49 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie



quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf


Do tell...I'll extend the same courtesy to you that I have to Mdeihl. I don't know you from Adam, but you tend to harbor some of the same angst that I do. I bet we'd see eye to eye on a lot of things if we weren't talking about history(yes I AM talking history now). I've been forthcoming on my credibility vis a vis my professional qualifications. You've alluded to the same possibilty. I am standing by to establish a mutual respect...


Well I will admit you conduct yourself with more professionalism and military bearing than some of the peanut gallery around here, so that's a good start.

But then there's this:

quote:

One personal note, and I hold this as very important when reading Mdeihl's or now your posts. As a Naval aviator and fighter pilot, what I find a bit offensive is the ease with which you speak about a conflict where truly talented, humble, yet heroic men fought a Highly skilled adversary flying arguably the best fighter of the early war in a mediocre, underpowered however armed and armored, dog of an airplane. Specifically the F4F-4. In some way I feel you diminish their accomplishments by casually stating something absurd like "mobs of veteran expertly trained samurai died screaming in their superior A6Ms at the hands of dumb ass American aviators and their obsolete aircraft". That is a personal opinion formed from professional experience and operating in a world today that is slowly but surely beginning to look like Vietnam


In case you haven't noticed, there's some people here who are of the opinion that american aviators were a bunch of bums flying pieces of junk, and were really no match for the mighty Imperial Japanese Navy. Having been around quite a while now, I find this to be a common attitude among certain left leaning european college boys. Their overall attitude can be summed up as "the Americans sucked and their equipment was trash, and they only won because they cheated by producing more of their inferior equipment than the more deserving axis powers did'

I recall being called a "racist" by a certain Ursa Major when I dared to suggest the Germans were not the most innovative and a successful producers of military hardware in aller zeit. I've also been called everything but a good dog for my racist endorsements of obviously inferior American infantry weapons such as the M-1 and the BAR. "Everybody knows" the sturmgewehr and the MG-42 were vastly superior firearms; the Russians won world war II all by themselves; the American army in Europe only faced third rate "stomach battalions" while it was the British who heroically defeated the elite SS, and so on ad nauseum.

This sort of thing is the usual level of the discussion around here, and one of the reasons M'Deihl has been ostracised by some of the more "enlightened". And while myself and M'deihl most certainly don't agree on everything, he is infinitely more knowlegable on the subject of aviation history than most.


Well this is a start, but why are you holding back re: your military aviation background?

I accept that as a compliment. Is there any other way?

American aviators a bunch of bums?: Certainly not. Under-prepared in general, surprised by capability of IJN and AF yes. USN was most capable and definitely a match for IJN. Only thing holding them back from dominating them was the F4F.

F4F Junk?: Certainly not, but it was less well endowed than it should have been, and in critical areas. I was a survivable airplane, but fighter pilots do not want to just survive, they want to kill the enemy in droves.

All the bad blood: I'm not sure how that applies to me. I've had relatively few problems with people on this forum, whether I agree with them or not. My rule, be nice until it's time to not be nice...(name the actor and the movie)

If Mdeihl feels that way it's likely because he can bring it on himself. All he needs to do is back up his claims with sources, and data, and perhaps acknowledge people when they make valid points rather than condescending...that is just my objective opinion, because I generally agree in principle, but hold some different points. Saying he is infinitely more knowledgeable here is ignoring quite a few smart people who really do know a thing or two. I'd say he is as knowledgeable as any one else here.

I'm not European, nor left leaning by the way, but I like to avoid politics here.


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Post #: 211
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 9:25:21 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Doctrine? - he was outnumbered flying an escort mission.


Correct, and he was forced to fly with only one division and one half. These numbers were forced on him at the last minute, he wanted 2 full divs in order to test his weave, unfortunately it likely would not have mattered since he had not had more than a few minutes to chalk talk it with the members of his flight.

Later USN doctrine for the F4F held that close escort was not favorable to the F4F's strong points. High escort was necessary to afford the Wildcat altitude from which to dive on the Zero as they had dived on him at 2500'. He never should have been put in the position he was in, but many factors contributed to this particular case, not the least of which was the lack of a clear cut doctrine that highlighted the F4Fs strengths.

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Post #: 212
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 9:30:39 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

My rule, be nice until it's time to not be nice...(name the actor and the movie)



Classic 80's B-Movie... Road House, "starring" Patrick Swayze...

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 213
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 9:32:13 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino
I'm sure it has something to do with Wright brothers, too.
EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget Newton.


Some years ago, I spent almost 6 months in Bosnia to help ensure that you and your neighbors were "civil" w/one another.

But by your post, I see things haven't changed much on your side of Republika Serbska.


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"The Angel of Okinawa"

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The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 214
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 9:37:02 PM   
Dino


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Post #: 215
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 10:18:39 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino
I'm sure it has something to do with Wright brothers, too.
EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget Newton.


Some years ago, I spent almost 6 months in Bosnia to help ensure that you and your neighbors were "civil" w/one another.

But by your post, I see things haven't changed much on your side of Republika Serbska.



Joe D.
This one is across the "no politics" line.

We've been quite lenient with everyone on this thread - allowing plenty of "mud-slinging" opportunities. But the political line is a hard line. So let's not go there again.

Thanks.

Joe Wilkerson


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(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 216
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 10:48:06 PM   
Doggie


Posts: 3244
Joined: 9/19/2001
From: Under the porch
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf




Well this is a start, but why are you holding back re: your military aviation background?


I'm not holding back. I had a short and undisquished career as an Army enlisted observer on an aircraft no one's ever heard of - the Grumman OV-1, plus the ubiquitious helicopters. I put my wings in a desk drawer thirty some years ago. Seventies era surveillance systems and a lot of time in NOE dead reckoning navigation is of little relevance here.


quote:

If Mdeihl feels that way it's likely because he can bring it on himself. All he needs to do is back up his claims with sources, and data, and perhaps acknowledge people when they make valid points rather than condescending...that is just my objective opinion, because I generally agree in principle, but hold some different points. Saying he is infinitely more knowledgeable here is ignoring quite a few smart people who really do know a thing or two. I'd say he is as knowledgeable as any one else here.


And there's a solect few individuals here who claim to be knowledgeable about aviation history and the dynamics of flight who are not. The "I got 400 flight hours passing coffee to the CAG in my P-3" argument leaves me less than impressed. I'm even less impressed with "you don't own a computer game; hence you know nothing about the history of naval aviation" It just don't get any lamer than that. There's computer games and there's real life history. The two have little in common.

I believe everybody has a right to their opinion and that's how I run my own humble little board. You might be interested in Paul Vebber's little suite at the MCS He's also a naval officer, part of the Matrix staff, and that's his little retreat from the forum rat race. He runs it and he's free to do as he pleases there, which is just the way he likes it.



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Post #: 217
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 11:04:44 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

I see that some people still didn't grasp the fact that Matrix forum is about info and not about people (and name calling)... sad...


quote:

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar
BWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHA!

That was a good one! Seriously, I read that and now you owe me a new keyboard.

The Matrix Forums have ALWAYS been about the users and conflict. The Forums are always at a low boil and oft times they explode.

Oh, the stories I could tell about this place.


I have seen my share of user conflict here, but I wouldn't say the forums are about that. I come here to discuss the game and historical aspects. I have often debated various issues, but I don't see any point in name calling.

My question is, OK, if some people perceive this forum as being about user conflict, why? What's the point? What is accomplished calling somone a moron? I just don't get it.

Bill

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(in reply to VicKevlar)
Post #: 218
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 11:20:48 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
... My question is, OK, if some people perceive this forum as being about user conflict, why? What's the point? What is accomplished calling somone a moron? I just don't get it.


Nothing is accomplished by it; it's done simply because it's alllowed, i.e., there's no "no moron" line.

but I'm going to have to familiarize myself w/this forum's "rules"; with all the name calling here, I didn't think there were any restrictions except one's own good taste.

My bad.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 219
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 11:32:09 PM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf




Well this is a start, but why are you holding back re: your military aviation background?


I'm not holding back. I had a short and undisquished career as an Army enlisted observer on an aircraft no one's ever heard of - the Grumman OV-1, plus the ubiquitious helicopters. I put my wings in a desk drawer thirty some years ago. Seventies era surveillance systems and a lot of time in NOE dead reckoning navigation is of little relevance here.


quote:

If Mdeihl feels that way it's likely because he can bring it on himself. All he needs to do is back up his claims with sources, and data, and perhaps acknowledge people when they make valid points rather than condescending...that is just my objective opinion, because I generally agree in principle, but hold some different points. Saying he is infinitely more knowledgeable here is ignoring quite a few smart people who really do know a thing or two. I'd say he is as knowledgeable as any one else here.


And there's a solect few individuals here who claim to be knowledgeable about aviation history and the dynamics of flight who are not. The "I got 400 flight hours passing coffee to the CAG in my P-3" argument leaves me less than impressed. I'm even less impressed with "you don't own a computer game; hence you know nothing about the history of naval aviation" It just don't get any lamer than that. There's computer games and there's real life history. The two have little in common.

I believe everybody has a right to their opinion and that's how I run my own humble little board. You might be interested in Paul Vebber's little suite at the MCS He's also a naval officer, part of the Matrix staff, and that's his little retreat from the forum rat race. He runs it and he's free to do as he pleases there, which is just the way he likes it.




Guys

We do things a little bit different here. Anything starts up here even a little and I will just banning who I feel the trouble makers are. Its been nice and quiet here and its going to stay like that.

David



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Post #: 220
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 11:40:22 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

When it comes to Japanese aircraft development, you have me at a disadvantage. However, consider the following public domain "cut and paste" re the development of the A5M Claude, which I assume is the precurser to the A6M Zero:

In 1932, the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) issued a requirement for a new naval carrier fighter, and in response a Mitsubishi design team under Jiro Horikoshi developed the "1MF10" fighter, which had a strong resemblance to the American Boeing P-26 "Peashooter" fighter, being a low-wing monoplane, with a metal fuselage and fabric-covered wings; an open cockpit; an air-cooled radial engine, driving a two-bladed fixed wooden propeller; fixed landing gear; twin 7.7 millimeter (0.303 caliber) machine guns in the upper lip of the engine cowling; and a telescopic tube gunsight.

The first of two prototypes performed its initial flight in March 1933. The second prototype followed shortly after and differed from the first by replacing the strut-braced main landing gear with main gear in spats. The 1MF10 was an unlucky aircraft. It failed to meet IJN performance requirements and both prototypes were lost in crashes. It did, however, give Horikoshi and Mitsubishi a basis for further work.

In 1934, the IJN issued another request for a carrier fighter, and Mitsubishi and Horikoshi came up with a new design, the "Ka-14", with the same overall configuration as the 1MF10 but cleaner, and featuring all-metal construction, an inverted gull wing, and a Nakajima Kotobuki 5 nine-cylinder radial providing 410 kW (550 HP). The initial prototype performed its first flight on 4 February 1935. The prototype exceeded its speed requirements, but it had a number of handling problems.

As a result, the inverted gull wing was replaced in the second prototype by a flat wing with a slight outboard dihedral. The second prototype also featured an uprated Kotobuki 3 radial with 475 kW (640 HP). Four more prototypes were built that were similar to the second prototype, differing in small details and being used to evaluate a variety of engine fits. Following successful trials, the IJN approved production of the type as the "A5M1" or "Type 96 Carrier Fighter Model 1", powered by a Kotobuki-2-KAI-1 engine with 430 kW (580 HP).


Looking at photos of these two planes, the A5M is the spitting image of the earlier P-26, at least from the outside. Is this just a coincidence?

And if the lineage of the A6 goes thru the A5, and the same team that deveolped both planes was "inspired" by the US P-26 design for its A5 prototype, how original is the A6?

To paraphrase Ecclesiastes, it looks like "there's nothing new under the (rising) sun."


The A5M may have been influenced by the P-26 in appearance. In 1932, the P-26 was one of the world's most advanced fighters, so it would not be surprising for an up and coming power to make a fighter that looks like one of the world's best. It's almost certain that the Japanese did not get their hands on a P-26 before the A5M had been in front line service for a while. Their first opportunity was in China where a handful were operated by the Chinese, but the Chinese didn't get any until 1936. The only export operators of the P-26 before the start of WW II was China, Spain, and the Philippines (who got USAAF cast offs).

Some USAAF cast offs also went to Honduras during the war. Two were recovered in the 1960s by Ed Mahoney of the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, CA. One of these went to the either the USAF museum or the Smithsonian (I don't remember which), the other was restored to flying condition and is still in Chino, though not flown anymore.

A lot of planes look like one another. Japanese early war fighters looked like a lot of other single radial engine planes from the late 1930s. There were some similarities with some Italian fighters and the Zero and Oscar for example. Those Japanese fighters also had some similarities with the P-36, which evolved into the P-40.

The AT-6 was not designed for combat and the Australian's attempts to build a combat version, the Wirraway, was not very successful. If you look at a stock AT-6 side by side with an A6M2, the A6M2 looks more similar to other late 30s radial engine fighters than it does the AT-6. The AT-6 has a different tail, different cowling, different canopy, different shaped wings, and a lot of other differences.

For Tora, Tora, Tora, the production company also had some Vultee BT-13s modified into Vals. The stock BT-13 looks nothing like a Val http://www.warbirdalley.com/bt13.htm, but could be made to look like the dive bomber.

Those planes were modified for the movie because they are plentiful, cheap, and with some heavy cosmetic surgery, they were able to transform them into look alikes for the originals.

I have seen the insides of both an AT-6 and a Zero. They are radically different designs. The AT-6 is a rather old fashioned tube construction with a metal skin over it instead of fabric. The Zero is a typical late 30s fighter design with a stressed metal skin. The AT-6 is built from the ground up to take rough handling from student pilots and to have some performance, but not as much as a fighter. The Zero is designed from the ground up to be super light and maneuverable with extreme range. Very different missions and very different designs.

It's a coincidence that one can be modified to cosmetically look like the other.

Bill

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(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 221
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/13/2007 11:50:13 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
I am sorry if you feel that questioning a man's experience in playing this game is not germane.

quote:

"the Americans sucked and their equipment was trash, and they only won because they cheated by producing more of their inferior equipment than the more deserving axis powers did'


No one has ever said American airmen or equipment was trash except for you and mdiehl when applying your own twists to other's comments. That is one of mdiehl's (and obviously yours) favorite doings. If someone says that the Wildcat was inferior to the Zero, mdiehl and you automatically return fire by saying we called it and the men who flew it trash. That's quite a stretch but typical for you guys.

As far as actual history goes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If the truth were known, there are many points that I do agree with mdiehl on. I do disagree with his assertion however that everything US was better than anything Japanese which seems to be the main gist of his postings. He believes that US carriers should be able to go toe to toe with KB during the early war period (Dec 41- Mar 42). I believe that would have resulted in disaster for the US. The only aircraft the US Navy had on its carriers at the time that was able to perform its intended mission was the Dauntless. I think everyone can agree that the Devastator was woefully inadequate for the job it was tasked to do.

Another point is that US carriers in early 42 were insufficently trained in fleet defense coordination and their AA complement woefully inadequate to meet the challenge. The Marshalls raid again is a good case in point. 5 Nells were able to penetrate the CAP and drop their bombs. At least one bomb landed close enough to the Enterprise to kill one sailor and start a fire. The fighter-fighter combat that occurred certainly doesn't give a warm, fuzzy feeling for the Wildcat's abilities. It barely held its own against surprised and outnumbered A5M Claudes. However, to each his own opinion.

One has only to look at the field modifications armorers had to make to the Wildcat while in transit to the Marshall Islands during raids in early 42 to realize that the US was not ready for a carrier battle in early 42. Most of Wildcats went to war without armor, many without self-sealing tanks and in at least three cases on the Enterprise, without gunsights. The faulty design of their ammo trays led to constant jamming. This is pretty well explained in Lundstrom's book, "The First Team."

The US took those lessons learned and rapidly took measures to correct many of them in time for Coral Sea. The fact of the matter is that Wildcat pilots did have certain advantages that allowed them to compete. And it had very little to do with the aircraft itself. At Guadalcanal, coastwatchers and radar gave plenty of early warning that allowed the Wildcat to climb to altitude before the Japanese strikes arrived. Without this early warning network, the Wildcat's climb performance would not have allowed it to attain a favorable attack position in time. The same applied to the carrier battles of 42. Radar was a significant force multiplier that could often get the Wildcats into position in time to intercept. Radar wasn't perfect but it was certainly better than the Mk 1 mod 0 eyeball.

Another advantage that mdiehl refuses to acknowledge is that the Wildcat, being on defense at Guadalcanal, was much closer to its base than were the Japanese. This means that a battle damaged Wildcat had an opportunity to RTB quickly in an emergency. Indeed there were several dead-stick landings that would ordinarily have been combat losses if they had to fly further to base. As it was, Lundstrom states that the US lost 31 F4Fs and the Japanese 25 Zeros in the period of 7 Aug 42 through mid-Nov 42. I wonder what the loss ratio would have been without the advantage of early warning or if the Wildcat had to fly 100 miles further back to base?

He claims that fatigue was more of a factor to the US pilots on Guadalcanal than it was to the Japanese. I beg to differ though fatigue was an enemy to both sides. The problem is that he doesn't have the data (or the flight experience) to support it. He claims that the occasional airborne snooper, random snipings and mortar rounds, and the far less frequent naval bombardment disrupted sleep to the extent that it had a major impact on US pilots. O'Hare claims that these occurences were more of a nuisance and after the first week, he simply stayed in his cot and slept through them (the exception being the naval bombardments of course). He ignores the fact the Japanese pilots at the airfields near Rabaul were also subjected to allied night snoopers. But let's set the nighttime disruptions aside for a moment and just look at the actual flying that had to be done.

It is roughly 650nm from Rabual to Henderson Field. The Zero had a combat cruise speed of of approx 210mph. The Bettys had a cruise speed of 190mph with a combat load. That means roughly a 3.25 hr flight to the target. Adding 30 minutes to form up gives 3.75 hrs approx. Allow 30 minutes over the target and a 3.25 hr flight back. That's roughly 7.5 hrs. This does not include time for briefing or debriefing which may add another hour or so. So let's just call it 8.5 hours. This would represent the absolute minimum time required (assuming everything went well). And on the US side, the Japanese raids had became so predictable that O'Hare said he would stay in his cot until 0800, eat breakfast and then saunter over to inspect his plane and check the latest intel. They generally were ready for flight no later than 0930-1000. Once the raid appeared on radar screens, generally around 1100-1300, the US pilots would warm up their engines and then wait for the signal to go. Call it an hour's wait at most, the climb to altitude 15 minutes. The raid appears, they engage in combat, they land. Cal it an hour total (probably less given the Japanese didn't have a lot of combat fuel avilable). Ok, let's be generous let's call it a 2 hour flight with a 1 hour wait before hand. Once, on the ground they go to debrief (30 minutes) while their aircraft are fueled and rearmed. Some get assigned to runway alert. The others sack out. The Japanese still have a 2.5-3 hours flight ahead of them. Now consider how many are battle damaged and how many are low on fuel. If you are low on fuel, you go to low power settings at a speed of 150mph. Now its more like 3-4 hours back.

Do this day after day and the fatigue begins to add up on both sides. The Japanese have been flying constant combat operations for months, the Americans at Guadalcanal for a few days/weeks.You start making stupid mistakes. You fail to recognize that what you think is a fighter ahead is actually a TBF (or Dauntless in some renditions). Boom! Saburo Sakai returns home severely wounded.

Mdiehl claims to have done the research to support his contention that the Wildcat was a match for the Zero yet beyond a stated kill ratio (which varies depending upon which posting you read), he has failed to provide any substantiating data to support his claims. He claims it is on another website but he doens't provide the link. This makes it appear as though he hasn't done it. I would welcome the opportunity to rationally discuss his data if he would only provide it.

The original purpose of this thread was to discuss the invincibility of the late-war US carrier CAP (or land-based for that matter). I simply do not feel it should be invincible or impervious. It wasn't IRL. While it is true that the Japanese suffered horrendous losses, they were able to penetrate US CAP on most occasions and target ships. It is also true that the vast majority of attackers failed to hit but many did.

That they were able to do this with aircraft that in most cases were quite obsolete when compared to the Corsair and Hellcat is an undeniable truth. In addition the experience level of these pilots was substantially less than the greenest of US pilots on average. Yet they still achieved some small measure of success.

The stock game should reflect this but it doesn't. That is the whole point of contention with the uberCAP. Players that play the game know it well.

I do prefer to discuss these things rationally as I have done in the vast majority of my postings on this forum (excepting this thread). I do not normally use sarcasm or like to be a smart-ass in reply to someone who has something to contribute. My style is generally determined by the manner of the original poster and I do take their previous post history into account. Be a smart-ass with me and you'll get it back in droves.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Doggie)
Post #: 222
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:03:17 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

My rule, be nice until it's time to not be nice...(name the actor and the movie)



Classic 80's B-Movie... Road House, "starring" Patrick Swayze...


Look at the big brain on Braaaaaad!!! (same deal for extra points...?)

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(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 223
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:08:04 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

And there's a solect few individuals here who claim to be knowledgeable about aviation history and the dynamics of flight who are not. The "I got 400 flight hours passing coffee to the CAG in my P-3" argument leaves me less than impressed. I'm even less impressed with "you don't own a computer game; hence you know nothing about the history of naval aviation" It just don't get any lamer than that. There's computer games and there's real life history. The two have little in common.


Gee, I wonder who he is referring to...

But as Ronnie Reagan once said, "There you go again..."

You have an unique talent of twisting people's words. But I guess that is all you know.

My 9000 hours in P-3s are germane when discussing the effects of fatigue during long aerial flights. (By the way, P-3s don't have CAGs. Those are found on carriers.)

And the statement of not owning/playing the game is certainly germane for anyone who wants to rationally discuss the faults of the game. Never implied, let alone stated, that game experience has anything to do with knowing about military history.

And I think that having 26 years as a naval aviator (albeit just the guy in the back of the bus) gives me just a tad more experience than yourself in naval aviation matters.

quote:

I had a short and undisquished career as an Army enlisted observer on an aircraft no one's ever heard of - the Grumman OV-1,


Wow, that must mean you're an expert on the Grumman Wildcat because you once flew in a Grumman OV-1. And given your dainty style, I'm willing to bet you didn't even finish your enlistment.

But, frankly my dear, I really just don't give a damn as to whether you are impressed or not.

Chez



_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Doggie)
Post #: 224
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:11:35 AM   
Panther Bait


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Does anyone have the figures on how many zeros were stationed at Rabaul, how many flew a typical escort/sweep mission, and how frequent the missions really were?  Several people have made comments like "constant combat operations" in the last post (not picking on you, ChezDaJez, you just happened to be the last to make a similar comment). 

I guess what I am wondering is - how many 8+ hour combat flights was the typical zero pilot at Rabaul making a week? or a month?  It seems to me that it makes a big difference in cumulative fatigue if it is 5-7 flights/week or if it is 1-2 flights/week.

How about the US pilots at HF? Does anyone know how many combat flights were they making in an average week?

And I'll state right now that I have no idea, so I have no agenda in asking.

< Message edited by Panther Bait -- 9/14/2007 12:14:24 AM >


_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

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(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 225
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:15:36 AM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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From: Dallas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

My rule, be nice until it's time to not be nice...(name the actor and the movie)



Classic 80's B-Movie... Road House, "starring" Patrick Swayze...


Look at the big brain on Braaaaaad!!! (same deal for extra points...?)


I'm still recovering from the Road House reference.
Pulp Fiction, Sam Jackson

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 226
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:30:08 AM   
TheElf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

My rule, be nice until it's time to not be nice...(name the actor and the movie)



Classic 80's B-Movie... Road House, "starring" Patrick Swayze...


Look at the big brain on Braaaaaad!!! (same deal for extra points...?)


I'm still recovering from the Road House reference.
Pulp Fiction, Sam Jackson



Well done.

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 227
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:38:00 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

I guess what I am wondering is - how many 8+ hour combat flights was the typical zero pilot at Rabaul making a week? or a month? It seems to me that it makes a big difference in cumulative fatigue if it is 5-7 flights/week or if it is 1-2 flights/week.


I'll state right now that is an excellent question. One of the intangibles not on my list that I should track while I'm doing this. Thanks for asking.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 9/14/2007 12:42:25 AM >


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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 228
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 12:40:23 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
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quote:

Does anyone have the figures on how many zeros were stationed at Rabaul, how many flew a typical escort/sweep mission, and how frequent the missions really were? Several people have made comments like "constant combat operations" in the last post (not picking on you, ChezDaJez, you just happened to be the last to make a similar comment).


Lundstrom's book, "The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign" discusses the missions flown from Rabaul at length.

My reference to constant combat operations reflects the fact that the Japanese units had been engaged in combat operations over the SRA prior to their transfer to Rabaul to combat the American landings on Guadalcanal. With the exception of the carrier pilots that fought at Coral Sea and Midway, The American pilots had little time in combat prior to Guadalcanal. I would consider them to be far fresher from the start than their Japanese counterparts.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 229
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:05:54 AM   
Joe D.


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As I have only seen some of these aircraft from a distance -- and not from inside as you've had -- I'm going to concede the point. But damn, the A5M not only looks like the P-26, it looks exactly like it, from the top of its telescopic sight to the bottom of its fixed wheel carriage.

So you've eliminated the AT-6; but is Doggie barking up the wrong tree w/the Hugh's H-1 racer? Supposedly it inspired the FW-190 too.



< Message edited by Joe D. -- 9/14/2007 3:22:55 AM >


_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 230
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:33:23 AM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

As I have only seen some of these aircraft from a distance -- and not from inside as you've had -- I'm going to concede the point. But damn, the A5M not only looks like the P-26, it looks exactly like it, from the top of its telescopic sight to the bottom of its fixed wheel carriage.

So you've eliminated the AT-6; but is Doggie barking up the wrong tree w/the Hugh's H-1 racer? Supposedly it inspired the FW-190 too.



It's all subjective.

No One has ever designed a machine inside a vacuum. Every designer expands upon what he has seen/learned, in combination with their own ideas.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 231
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:41:03 AM   
Panther Bait


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

My reference to constant combat operations reflects the fact that the Japanese units had been engaged in combat operations over the SRA prior to their transfer to Rabaul to combat the American landings on Guadalcanal. With the exception of the carrier pilots that fought at Coral Sea and Midway, The American pilots had little time in combat prior to Guadalcanal. I would consider them to be far fresher from the start than their Japanese counterparts.

Chez


That makes sense to me. As I said above, I was just curious on the pace of flight missions undertaken by the Japanese. Of course, the fewer fighter sweeps/escort missions the zeros undertake, the less intercepts the US pilots have to make, so operational tempo cuts both ways, I guess.

I was also thinking on the way home from work that the decision to give the zero such a large combat radius, in retrospect, might have been a huge mistake by the Japanese. The plane's ability to fly such long combat missions inevitably means that someone will use it that way. Coupled with the need to decrease pilot protection and forego other protective devices, particularly self-sealing fuel tanks, to achieve that combat radius, the long-range combat missions seem like pilot killers. Increased pilot fatigue during the mission, increased danger of pilot wounding, an increased risk of fuel loss during a long ride home, seems to make the zero hard on pilots.

While I understand that this fit in well with the Japanese cultural bias to self-sacrifice and the warrior mystique, I think the US made a better choice to preserve the pilots to the degree possible and replace the airframes as needed.



_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 232
RE: Zero vs F4F/P-40 - 9/14/2007 3:41:19 AM   
Big B

 

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From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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By the way (to all)

This is the greatest topic of all time on this forum.  Though many complain of having heard it all - can anyone name another topic that is so evergreen, so easily able to generate 8+ pages anytime it is brought up?  I think not. (that is - unless the blood pressure gets so high so quickly it gets locked).

Maybe if most games lived in 1945 instead of 1942 there would be a challenger.

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 233
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:42:00 AM   
Doggie


Posts: 3244
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From: Under the porch
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quote:

  Original:  ChezDaJez




No one has ever said American airmen or equipment was trash except for you and mdiehl when applying your own twists to other's comments.


Really?

quote:

The fighter-fighter combat that occurred certainly doesn't give a warm, fuzzy feeling for the Wildcat's abilities. It barely held its own against surprised and outnumbered A5M Claudes


So the F-4F was  also inferior to older Japanese fighters and not just the A6M?  With "surprised and out numbered" pilots?  Your opinion of American airmen and their equipment gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Let us review some significant events during the Pacific war:

 

May 8, 1942  USS Lexington (CV-2) sunk by carrier based air

October 27, 1942 U.S.S. Hornet (CV-8) sunk  by carrier based air

Sept. 15, 1942 - USS Wasp (CV 7) sunk by submarine

June 7, 1942  U.S.S. Yorktown (CV 5) Sunk by submarine after being damaged by carrier based air.

So the Japanese only managed to sink two fleet carriers with airpower alone.

Now my memory is a little foggy here.  I believe there was only one Japanese aircraft carrier sunk by a U.S. submarine.  I do believe all the rest of them were sunk by U.S. carrier based air.   Please feel free to correct me if I am in error.

That would seem to imply that the lowly F-4F and it's successors did a far better job of both protecting their ships and escorting their own attack planes than the superior A6M.  I might note that A6Ms defending their own ships would be presumed to be better rested than the American pilots who had to fly to their targets.

So maybe some one can explain this seemingly peculiar state of events, given the F4F's inferior status.

It would be a plus if someone could do this without inferring I was discharged from the army for being gay, which the seems to be style preferred by the resident expert.

_____________________________


(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 234
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:48:38 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
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From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

While I understand that this fit in well with the Japanese cultural bias to self-sacrifice and the warrior mystique, I think the US made a better choice to preserve the pilots to the degree possible and replace the airframes as needed.



Design an aircraft to preserve their pilots may have been the better choice? You think?

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 235
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:48:45 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

As I have only seen some of these aircraft from a distance -- and not from inside as you've had -- I'm going to concede the point. But damn, the A5M not only looks like the P-26, it looks exactly like it, from the top of its telescopic sight to the bottom of its fixed wheel carriage.

And w/CGI, movie producers no longer have to surgically alter other aircraft.

So you've eliminated the AT-6; but is Doggie barking up the wrong tree w/the Hugh's H-2 racer?


A person can point to any aircraft of any era and cite similarities between various aircraft and indeed there were. Many designers "borrowed" concepts and innovative design features from competitors however that doesn't mean that the resulting design was a copied design or even based on it.

The Japanese were no exception. They initially purchased many of their initial aircraft from the French and British during and after WWI. They examined their designs and developed their own that most likely drew heavily upon those aircraft. As their aircraft design industry grew, they produced many different types of aircraft. Some were built under license such as the Japanese version of the DC-3 while others such as the A6M series were a totally Japanese innovation design. About the only thing not of original design on the Zero was the propellor (built under license from Hamilton Standard) and some the guns built under license from Hispano)

The aircraft listed in this thread referred to as the H-2 was in fact the H-1B. It first flew in 1935 after being developed in great secrecy and last flew in 1937. If you look at both aircraft there are no design similarities to the A6M series beyond both being radial-powered, low-winged monoplanes with retracting gear. The H-1B was built for speed and the A6M was built to turn... two totally different design philosophies. The wing, fuselage, and tail assembly bear no resemblance to each other at all. In fact, the H-1B wings are built of wood and only the fuselage was aluminium. plus Hughes had two sets of wings built for it; one set 20 feet long for speed, the other 31 feet long for distance.

How someone can look at these two airplanes and say that A6M was a copy, or derived from, the H-1B is, in my opinion, a very long stretch of the imagination. I personally think that the rumors of the A6M being copied from the H-1B are an attempt by some to imply that the Japanese were incapable of producing their own designs.

Indeed, if you look at the H-1B in profile, it closely resembles the Corsair with its set back cockpit and extended nose.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 236
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 3:52:44 AM   
Yakface


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quote:


Now my memory is a little foggy here. I believe there was only one Japanese aircraft carrier sunk by a U.S. submarine. I do believe all the rest of them were sunk by U.S. carrier based air. Please feel free to correct me if I am in error.




Shokaku, Taiyo and Shinano all went down to subs - may be others

< Message edited by Yakface -- 9/14/2007 4:00:23 AM >

(in reply to Doggie)
Post #: 237
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 4:01:04 AM   
Doggie


Posts: 3244
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

As I have only seen some of these aircraft from a distance -- and not from inside as you've had -- I'm going to concede the point. But damn, the A5M not only looks like the P-26, it looks exactly like it, from the top of its telescopic sight to the bottom of its fixed wheel carriage.


I wouldn't say they looke exactly alike:



\

Note the differences in the cowling, external struts on the P-26, the hump behind the pilot which functioned as a roll bar. I believe this feature was added after several pilots were killed in flip over landing accidents.

You could say the A-36 looked just like the Bf-109, but there's no connection there.

quote:

So you've eliminated the AT-6; but is Doggie barking up the wrong tree w/the Hugh's H-1 racer? Supposedly it inspired the FW-190 too.


This story has been around for years, starting with the recovery of the first zero in the Aluetions. Here's a starting point

Since a lot of Japanese documents were lost in the war, supporter of the theory claim that's a talking point for thier side. The question has never been definitively answered.

Keep in mind that no one claims the A6M is a copy of a hughes racer; only that some of it's design features were incorporated into the A6M. For myself, I'm not convinced either way. Proof positve would be Japanese documents.


_____________________________


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Post #: 238
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 4:04:12 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
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From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

quote:


Now my memory is a little foggy here. I believe there was only one Japanese aircraft carrier sunk by a U.S. submarine. I do believe all the rest of them were sunk by U.S. carrier based air. Please feel free to correct me if I am in error.




Shokaku, Taiyo and Shinano all went down to subs - may be others

Unryu was also sunk by a USN sub, all the others were rendered hors de combat or sunk outright by US aircraft.


To an esoteric degree - Midway may also have been been won by the submarine Nautilus, for it was the Japanese destroyer that was sitting on her - racing North to rejoin the CVs - that was spotted and followed to the target, that lead the CVs to their quarry and decided the battle.

< Message edited by Big B -- 9/14/2007 4:10:00 AM >

(in reply to Yakface)
Post #: 239
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/14/2007 4:15:04 AM   
Doggie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Shokaku, Taiyo and Shinano all went down to subs - may be others


Ther only one that came to mind was the one claimed by Archerfish.


Shôkaku; sunk by Cavalla

Shinano ; sunk by Archerfish

I wouldn't count Taiyo as a fleet carrier. U.S.S. Langley was sunk by land based air but it was used as an aircraft ferry and was more of a transport than an operational CV


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Post #: 240
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