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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 2:00:17 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
That's why I never mess w/the Japanese sub doctrine switch; if it's off, you're not really playing the "Japanese," but some PBEM players may not care.


Funny thing though, the real Japanese themselves didn't follow Japanese "sub doctrine" through about the first six months of the war. During that period the IJN subs sank about 60ish mostly independently sailing merchants ...


Speculation on my part, but Imperial Japan was strongly anti-colonial. So I wonder if sinking those merchant vessels served as an eviction notice to any residual European interests, i.e., you're through doing business in our part of the world/the greater Asian prosperity sphere, or something to that effect.

Again, just speculation.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 2:18:45 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
That's why I never mess w/the Japanese sub doctrine switch; if it's off, you're not really playing the "Japanese," but some PBEM players may not care.


Funny thing though, the real Japanese themselves didn't follow Japanese "sub doctrine" through about the first six months of the war. During that period the IJN subs sank about 60ish mostly independently sailing merchants ...


Speculation on my part, but Imperial Japan was strongly anti-colonial. So I wonder if sinking those merchant vessels served as an eviction notice to any residual European interests, i.e., you're through doing business in our part of the world/the greater Asian prosperity sphere, or something to that effect.

Again, just speculation.



The IJN subs were intially ordered to sink all enemy vessels on sight. Not sure why they allowed themselves to shoot the merchants during the opening - but they did. But your speculation may very well be correct.

All the major submarine powers (even Germany) had official pre-war doctrines against shooting merchant ships. The USN abandoned that doctrine immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack with the "...execute unrestricted ... submarine warfare against ... Japan..." order. The Germans also abandoned fairly quickly. The Brits and Japanese held on to the doctrine the longest. Perhaps, in theory, they had the most to lose. Being the Island empires they were.

After the war Nimitz testified at Doenitz' trial and said in effect, "they were don't anything we weren't doing". Thus confirming that the post-war Naval doctrine standard would be shifted to include merchant ships as valid targets and abandoning the (probably mostly driven by the British) World War I ideas that attacking merchant ships was "immoral" and "evil". And we've never looked back!


To be completely historical in the game, the Japanese sub doctrine switch should probably be OFF until about May or June and then should be switched ON for the duration. But in my experience by sometime between May 42 and Oct 42 the Allied rear areas get enough ASW air capability that IJN subs venturing back they are pretty much dead meat. So, in an actual game against a human, having the doctrine switch turned back to ON after the first six months is probably unnecessary.




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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 2:30:37 AM   
Joe D.


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Status: offline 		If I understand you correctly, island nations -- who had the most to lose if unrestricted sub warfare broke out -- resisted sinking other nations' merchant vessels in the hope they would respond in kind and not sink theirs, much the way the Allies treated Axis prisoners in the (vain) hope that the Axis would give the same good treatment to their prisoners.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 2:33:17 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Erm, no... Pre-war doctrine for attacking merchants called for forcing them to stop and submit to search before taking the crews off and sinking the ships. At the start of the war in Europe, all parties tried to do that, with both surface ships and submarines.



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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 2:40:37 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

If I understand you correctly, island nations -- who had the most to lose if unrestricted sub warfare broke out -- resisted sinking other nations' merchant vessels in the hope they would respond in kind and not sink theirs ...


In theory yes. And the Brits were pretty serious about not attacking (non-combatant) merchants also because otherwise they would lose their ability to "argue" the case that such was "illegal" and "immoral". Once the war started however, everyone (including eventually the Brits, particularly in the Med) bowed to practicality.




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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 2:42:43 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Erm, no... Pre-war doctrine for attacking merchants called for forcing them to stop and submit to search before taking the crews off and sinking the ships. At the start of the war in Europe, all parties tried to do that, with both surface ships and submarines.




I think Joe D and Joe W are in the context where "attack" means "unrestricted attacking" ... i.e. sink with no warning. As a practical matter the Germans quickly found out that this pre-war ideal was not workable at sea, though no one else tried as hard during the war to make it work.



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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 6:46:48 AM   
Raverdave


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Status: offline 		Well done Bill ! For that effort you get a beer when I am next in town !


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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 6:54:12 AM   
Mac67

 

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Status: offline 		My Dad served on the Merchant convoys from 1943 - 1945. Mostly on the Atlantic crossings. I remember how he told me about the tension the sailors used to feel when their ship was assigned to "coffin corner". I have never felt that the Merchant Seamen of WW2 have got the recognition that they deserve.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 6:55:28 AM   
Raverdave


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Status: offline 		Actually i found a rather large Redback in hiding in my garage door today.....thought that I might side track the thread with a pic.




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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 7:43:49 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac67

My Dad served on the Merchant convoys from 1943 - 1945. Mostly on the Atlantic crossings. I remember how he told me about the tension the sailors used to feel when their ship was assigned to "coffin corner". I have never felt that the Merchant Seamen of WW2 have got the recognition that they deserve.


That is certainly the feeling in America - well in some circles anyway. Progress was made in granting partial vet status in the 80s but definitely a case of too little too late.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 7:54:46 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave
Actually i found a rather large Redback in hiding in my garage door today.....thought that I might side track the thread with a pic.


So what is the effect of Redback venom on a human?

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 8:08:03 AM   
tsimmonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave
Actually i found a rather large Redback in hiding in my garage door today.....thought that I might side track the thread with a pic.


So what is the effect of Redback venom on a human?

Looks like a black widow to me. Upside down of course.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 8:13:52 AM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		We have them here, but the red hour glass is on a the belly on a black widow.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 10:17:11 AM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		Redback:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_back_spider

Black Widow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_widow_spider


Symptoms of being bitten by either:

Latrodectism

Symptoms

Symptoms occur in three main phases: exacerbation phase, dissipation phase and residual phase.

Exacerbation phase

During the first 24 hours after a bite:

* Severe pain in muscle groups local to the bite.
* Muscle cramping, primarily in the abdomen, back and thighs.
* Headache, dizziness, tremors, salivation, diaphoresis (excessive sweating), nausea and vomiting.
* Anxiety, fatigue, insomnia.
* Lacrimation (tearing of the eyes).
* Migratory arthralgia (joint pain).
* Tachycardia (rapid heart beat), bradycardia (very slow heart beat), restlessness, hypertension (elevated blood pressure), Tachypnea (hyperventilation).

In some rare and extreme cases, severe complications can arise:

* Spontaneous abortion, preterm labor
* Priapism
* Acute renal failure (failing of kidney function).
* Myocarditis, rhabdomyolysis, paralysis.
* Shock, coma, and death.

Symptoms that may be present at or near the wound:

* Rash, slight erythema (redness of skin), Piloerection (goose bumps).
* Mild edema (swelling due to excess fluid).
* Lesion or mild infection (rare).

Dissipation phase

During the first 1 to 3 days after the bite:

* Symptoms start to decline.

Residual phase

During the following weeks or months:

* Muscle spasm, tingling, nervousness and weakness.


All in all, sorta like losing a major carrier battle.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 10:46:09 AM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Redback:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_back_spider

Black Widow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_widow_spider


Symptoms of being bitten by either:

Latrodectism

Symptoms

Symptoms occur in three main phases: exacerbation phase, dissipation phase and residual phase.

Exacerbation phase

During the first 24 hours after a bite:

* Severe pain in muscle groups local to the bite.
* Muscle cramping, primarily in the abdomen, back and thighs.
* Headache, dizziness, tremors, salivation, diaphoresis (excessive sweating), nausea and vomiting.
* Anxiety, fatigue, insomnia.
* Lacrimation (tearing of the eyes).
* Migratory arthralgia (joint pain).
* Tachycardia (rapid heart beat), bradycardia (very slow heart beat), restlessness, hypertension (elevated blood pressure), Tachypnea (hyperventilation).

In some rare and extreme cases, severe complications can arise:

* Spontaneous abortion, preterm labor
* Priapism
* Acute renal failure (failing of kidney function).
* Myocarditis, rhabdomyolysis, paralysis.
* Shock, coma, and death.

Symptoms that may be present at or near the wound:

* Rash, slight erythema (redness of skin), Piloerection (goose bumps).
* Mild edema (swelling due to excess fluid).
* Lesion or mild infection (rare).

Dissipation phase

During the first 1 to 3 days after the bite:

* Symptoms start to decline.

Residual phase

During the following weeks or months:

* Muscle spasm, tingling, nervousness and weakness.


All in all, sorta like losing a major carrier battle.


I was bitten by a Black Widow spider as a child (quite common spider in Adriatic islands). My toe was swollen to size of greapfruit and I was told by my parents that I leaped 1 m (3 feet for USA readers) into the air from bed when it happened...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 11:02:58 AM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

The total weight for adding pilot armor and self-sealing tanks would have been around 400lbs. The reduction in fuel would have been in the neighborhood of 10%. The A6M would still weigh more than 1500lbs less than the Wildcat. I don't think the added weight and decreased fuel capacity would have cut the range by more than about 25%, putting it into the range category of the A6M3. Of course, to maintain its performance would have meant adding a more powerful engine. The Sakae-21 engine the A6M3 used (it was avilable in 1941) would probably have provided enough power (1130hp vs 940hp) to restore performance.


Are you sure about 200 lb (= 100 kg) for only pilot seat armour and self sealing tanks (i.e. tanks made of rubber in thin metal "sandwich")?


quote:


I'm not sure that the reduced range would have had a substantial impact on the speed of operations in the SRA though it would have likely had some effect. The 1942 carrier battles wouldn't have been affected (due to range) but it would certainly have been a very big deal in the Solomons and probably Port Moresby as well.

In the Solomons, the Japanese would have been forced to develop bases closer to Guadalcanal much quicker for its fighters if they wished to provide escorts for their bombers. They certainly wouldn't have been in position to offer any aerial resistance during the invasion. And by the time they did get new bases operational, the land battle for Guadalcanal would probably have largely been relegated to mopping up duties. Without fighter escort, the Japanese may have been forced to acknowledge that they did not have the means of providing effective cover for troop transports and therefore decided not to reinforce the island. And who knows what impact that would have had on the many naval battles that historically occurred.


The Japanese were really peculiar to say the least with Zero developement...

A6M2 Zero
A6M3 Zero
A6M3a Zero
A6M5 Zeke
A6M8 Zeke


quote:


Either way, the outcome of the war would certainly not have been effected though our air losses overall may have been a little higher with the increased retention of experienced IJN pilots the additional protection afforded. But I really can't see the changes increasing the length of the war by more than a day or two at best.


That for sure... the faith of Japan was sealed the moment the war started at Pearl Harbor and it was just the matter of time (no matter how many victories at the start or even later in war would have averted the defeat since the economic and production power of USA was unstoppable once in motion)...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 12:29:53 PM   
Charles2222


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Status: offline 		Here's a very interesting source. It's mostly focusing till the end of Okinawa, but does get into other areas with some stats for hits and such towards the bottom.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-042.htm

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 12:41:42 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		"but Imperial Japan was strongly anti-colonial" - Joe D.

Contradiction in terms. But I see what point you are trying to make. Japan oficially "encouraged" the anti-colonialism in Southeast Asia, true... but just because they wanted to replace the European, American masters... But the word "Imperial" clearly implies a yoke: "don't be silly [Philipinos, Indonesians, etc.], get rid of the European, American yoke... accept ours instead"

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 3:30:01 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
"but Imperial Japan was strongly anti-colonial" - Joe D.
Contradiction in terms. But I see what point you are trying to make. Japan oficially "encouraged" the anti-colonialism in Southeast Asia, true... but just because they wanted to replace the European, American masters... But the word "Imperial" clearly implies a yoke ...


Agreed: I should have said something along the lines of "anti-European colonialism, if there's such a term. I didn't realize how ironic that read -- an Imperial power complaining re imperialism/colonialism -- until you pointed it out.
Thanks.

Shattered Sword said IJ armed itself to the teeth to avoid becoming another European Asian colony, but they should have remembered the old (Chineese ?) saying; "Choose your enemies carefully, for in the end you will become like them."






< Message edited by Joe D. -- 9/15/2007 3:50:54 PM >

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 3:45:04 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac67
My Dad served on the Merchant convoys from 1943 - 1945. Mostly on the Atlantic crossings. I remember how he told me about the tension the sailors used to feel when their ship was assigned to "coffin corner" ...


If you think that's bad (and it is), merchants carrying ammo were alone in a crowd; they were avoided by the other ships in the convoy like the plague 'cause if they got hit ...

I was able to go aboard one of the few Liberty ships afloat today; the rationale for these vessels was that we could build 'em faster than the Axis could sink 'em, which must have been little comfort to those who had to sail 'em.

For what it's worth, at least they dedicated a film to the merchant marine, Action in the North Atlantic, w/Humbrey Bogart and Raymond Masey.

For what it's worth.


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The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 5:22:53 PM   
Mac67

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

If you think that's bad (and it is), merchants carrying ammo were alone in a crowd; they were avoided by the other ships in the convoy like the plague 'cause if they got hit ...

I was able to go aboard one of the few Liberty ships afloat today; the rationale for these vessels was that we could build 'em faster than the Axis could sink 'em, which must have been little comfort to those who had to sail 'em.

For what it's worth, at least they dedicated a film to the merchant marine, Action in the North Atlantic, w/Humbrey Bogart and Raymond Masey.

For what it's worth.



Tankers were pretty rough too, no-one wanted to be around one of those when it went up.

I grew up with the stories my Dad used to tell about his Merchant days. Mostly it was about the comic stuff, like the time someone smuggled a monkey onboard while they were in Africa, and it escaped and the crew spent two days trying to catch it, or how during a air attack the ships cook got so enraged that he ran out of the cook-house and started throwing potatoes at the german planes.

Everynow again though he would let slip about the darker stuff he had seen. Half burnt survivors from a sunken ship screaming for help in the freezing waters of the Atlantic or seeing men being strafed off the deck of a ship by a enemy plane.

Its a pity that the men of the Merchant Marine remain the "Forgotten Arm" of WW2.










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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 5:25:09 PM   
Mac67

 

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Status: offline 		The Albion Star was one of the ships that my Dad sailed on

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 5:43:15 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac67
... Everynow again though he would let slip about the darker stuff he had seen. Half burnt survivors from a sunken ship screaming for help in the freezing waters of the Atlantic or seeing men being strafed off the deck of a ship by a enemy plane ...


In all the "virtual" carnage of WitP/UV, I think this aspect of war is easilly forgotten.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 6:33:58 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		Okay - can you please describe the position of 'coffin corner'? Thanks in advance.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 7:57:09 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
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Status: offline 		Who, me?

I think the "coffin corner" is the starboard rear side of the flotilla, on the outside corner of the row where all the slower boats are positioned, probably equivalent to "tail end charlie" in airspeak.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 8:14:38 PM   
Mac67

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Okay - can you please describe the position of 'coffin corner'? Thanks in advance.


It was the name given to the two rear outside positions in the convoy formation. Ships travelling in these positions were most vulnerable to attacks by submarines, hence the term "Coffin Corner".

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 8:26:20 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Agreed: I should have said something along the lines of "anti-European colonialism, if there's such a term. I didn't realize how ironic that read -- an Imperial power complaining re imperialism/colonialism -- until you pointed it out.
Thanks.


And I should've said something like - "In most eras colonial powers are all pretty much anti-colonial - except regarding themselves!!".





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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 8:29:33 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac67

Its a pity that the men of the Merchant Marine remain the "Forgotten Arm" of WW2.





I have some familiarity with the "debate" in USA regarding giving more due to the American merchant sailors. But I'm not familiar with the British side of the story. Can you give us a brief summary of the highlights and the lowlights from the other side of the pond?


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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 11:16:09 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		For a good book re the North Atlantic convoy battles in general and the crucial March 1943 battles around HX229 and SC122 I'll recommend "Convoy" by Middleton. British, American, Allied and German; black shoe and brown shoe perspectives on the whole show. Talks alot more than is usual in such books about who the merchant seamen were and why they went to sea as I recall.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/15/2007 11:31:44 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

For a good book re the North Atlantic convoy battles in general and the crucial March 1943 battles around HX229 and SC122 I'll recommend "Convoy" by Middleton. British, American, Allied and German; black shoe and brown shoe perspectives on the whole show. Talks alot more than is usual in such books about who the merchant seamen were and why they went to sea as I recall.


There is also nice old novel "HMS Ulysess" by Alistair MacLean about fictional Artic convoy (I think I read it dozen of times since I was a boy - every few years I re-read it)!

HMS Ulysses


Leo "Apollo11"

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