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Infantry Retreats - 9/18/2007 1:13:26 PM   
hvymtl13


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I am having a slight issue with retreating infantry units. They seem to be able to evacuate a 60 mile hex in a single leap, where my attacking forces must move along painfully slow trying to catch these guys. They still have thier arty, and seem in pretty much the same shape they were when they ran out on me after I catch them. Also, they suffer very low casualty rates when they retreat.
I'm thinking this should be adressed somehow. They should be losing many more heavy weapons and guns when in headlong flight. Along with a bit more casualties.
Has this been addressed to the Dev's for a possible change or should it be changed?
I think multiple options for Defense stance should be available similar to Deliberate / Shock attacks. IE a Hold at all cost/ Fighting withdrawal switch in orders panel.
I mean these guys are holding hard, and the minute they get pushed out they were already prepared to leave..

< Message edited by hvymtl13 -- 9/18/2007 1:20:00 PM >


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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/18/2007 2:35:07 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hvymtl13

I am having a slight issue with retreating infantry units. They seem to be able to evacuate a 60 mile hex in a single leap, where my attacking forces must move along painfully slow trying to catch these guys.

Set your troops to "pursue enemy" when attacking. If the attack succeeds they will start the next turn already a couple of miles into the next hex. See Chapter 8.4.1 of the manual for details. Using armor, shock attack/pursue is so effective that many players think it is gamey.

quote:

They still have thier arty, and seem in pretty much the same shape they were when they ran out on me after I catch them. Also, they suffer very low casualty rates when they retreat.

Retreating troops suffer 20 % casualties on top of battle casualties every time they retreat.

quote:

I think multiple options for Defense stance should be available similar to Deliberate / Shock attacks. IE a Hold at all cost/ Fighting withdrawal switch in orders panel.

That would be great! BTW, you can post suggestions and 'enhancement requests' in this thread (topped in the main forum):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=687130

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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/18/2007 6:11:32 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG


quote:

ORIGINAL: hvymtl13

I am having a slight issue with retreating infantry units. They seem to be able to evacuate a 60 mile hex in a single leap, where my attacking forces must move along painfully slow trying to catch these guys.

Set your troops to "pursue enemy" when attacking. If the attack succeeds they will start the next turn already a couple of miles into the next hex. See Chapter 8.4.1 of the manual for details. Using armor, shock attack/pursue is so effective that many players think it is gamey.

quote:

They still have thier arty, and seem in pretty much the same shape they were when they ran out on me after I catch them. Also, they suffer very low casualty rates when they retreat.

Retreating troops suffer 20 % casualties on top of battle casualties every time they retreat.

quote:

I think multiple options for Defense stance should be available similar to Deliberate / Shock attacks. IE a Hold at all cost/ Fighting withdrawal switch in orders panel.

That would be great! BTW, you can post suggestions and 'enhancement requests' in this thread (topped in the main forum):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=687130


Amen, brother. The dynamics of land combat at that level are very interesting and completely missing from the game. One thing that would be very useful is partial control of hexes, with the bases flipping when a side goes over 50%.

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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/18/2007 6:43:03 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hvymtl13
I think multiple options for Defense stance should be available similar to Deliberate / Shock attacks. IE a Hold at all cost/ Fighting withdrawal switch in orders panel.
I mean these guys are holding hard, and the minute they get pushed out they were already prepared to leave..

THis is the first time I have heard this idea and I really like it!

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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/20/2007 5:35:54 AM   
hvymtl13


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG


quote:

ORIGINAL: hvymtl13

I am having a slight issue with retreating infantry units. They seem to be able to evacuate a 60 mile hex in a single leap, where my attacking forces must move along painfully slow trying to catch these guys.

Set your troops to "pursue enemy" when attacking. If the attack succeeds they will start the next turn already a couple of miles into the next hex. See Chapter 8.4.1 of the manual for details. Using armor, shock attack/pursue is so effective that many players think it is gamey.

Well When they weaken I try for deliberate assault so they don't skip out on me as fast when the objective becomes the elimination of the enemy rather then capture of a base for instance. So I don't have a persue option in that case.
Yes armor seems able to persue the enemy but I'm not sure why that would be gamey. Breakthrough/Persuit is a known tactic in ground warfare but my ground forces are being outrun. Sometimes to the tune of four or five days of marching to catch up.

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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/20/2007 9:20:50 AM   
Feinder


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1.  Pursuit can be "gamed" most on the trails.  If you were to march along the trails, with no company but the mosquitos, you'll move about 2 - 3 miles a day (about 20 - 30 days to travese the hex).  However, if you shock/pursue a defender onto a trail, he retreats the full 60 miles, and you pursue the 60 miles.  You attack again the next day and win (once you've retreated a unit, it's pretty much mush), he retreats another 60 miles, you pursue another 60 miles.  You've just covered 120 miles of jungle in 2 days, and will be in Calcutta in about 2 more days.

2.  Actually, a unit that is retreated multiple times, is in very bad shape.  The first time a unit retreats, you're correct, it doesn't suffer -that- many -dead- squads.  As indicated earlier, it's about 20% dead, 30% disabled, and 50% active (a perma-loss of "only" 20%).  However, that unit is -very- DISRUPTED.  On the order of about 85% disruption.  Basically, you can multiply a units assault value by (100 - disruption), and get (part of) it's net assualt value.  A unit with an AV of 100 and 85% disruption, will defend at about 15.  Losses to the attacker, are fairly minor in comparison (as long as you get 2:1 or better).  You can gererally attack a unit indefinately as long as you get 2:1 on the first attack, and the odds will only climb in your favor, because the defender is getting hammered much worse than the attacker (which is what leads to 120 mile jungle shock/pursue attacks, once defender loses, he -always- loses).  That defender also has (close to) zero supplies, which further reduces his AV to about 25% (so we've gone from 100 to 15 due to disruption, to 4 due to lack of supplies).  But if the defender can get to a base/supply source/HQ unit, he -can- rebuild (slowly), because at the momement of the first retreat, he's actually only perma-lost about 20% of his unit, the rest are disabled, and will come back with support/supplies. It's not the first retreat that kills the unit, it's the 2nd and 3rd ones.

That being said, yes, the land combat system "leaves much to be desired".  I'm not endorsing it, I wish they'd just toss the whole thing, and put in something more like a "conventiona" war-game from the card-board counters days.  But that -is- the way the way it is.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 9/20/2007 9:23:51 AM >


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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/21/2007 4:49:50 PM   
jumper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

1.  Pursuit can be "gamed" most on the trails.  If you were to march along the trails, with no company but the mosquitos, you'll move about 2 - 3 miles a day (about 20 - 30 days to travese the hex).  However, if you shock/pursue a defender onto a trail, he retreats the full 60 miles, and you pursue the 60 miles.  You attack again the next day and win (once you've retreated a unit, it's pretty much mush), he retreats another 60 miles, you pursue another 60 miles.  You've just covered 120 miles of jungle in 2 days, and will be in Calcutta in about 2 more days.




I´m not sure it is 100% correct. IIRC if you try tu pursue fleeing enemy on trail, they will skip 60 miles, but your attacking units will just get one movement day for free. For LCU on rail it is nearly the same, because they are usually able to keep the pace of 60 miles/day so they move together with fleeing enemy, but on the trail you will get just a few miles..
Last time a tried to pursue (it was on the railway 60 miles SW Hengchow) I have defeated 4 chinese corpses which fled SW towards Wuchow. I had 4 japanese divisions with pursue "on", but in spite of the railway they have moved only 30-50 miles and stayed on their hex. And it happend on the rail - the best movement surface you can have in Witp..
It is long time since I have tried to pursue enemy on some trail, but I think that when I tried, the enemy fled 60 miles and my forces moved just 5-10 miles.


< Message edited by jumper -- 9/21/2007 4:57:31 PM >

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RE: Infantry Retreats - 9/23/2007 3:23:37 AM   
Nikademus


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permanent losses during forced retreat are also impacted by the experience rating of the LCU.

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