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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 10:58:03 AM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

It's also one of the best books about German nightfighters: the men, the waepons, the tactics, and the technology. Very good reading.


Yes - indeed!

The book prompted me to buy books about nightfighting over Germany in WWII and download several very interesting and good essays about the same topic!


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 6:15:29 PM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

As I recall, Japanese intel was very concerned that in the event of a war with Britain and other European colonial states, and with the US neutral and thus free to arm and build up the Phillippines into a really unbreakable salient intruding on Japanese interior lines, that the US would make a "Lend Lease" arrangement that would simply put much of Borneo, New Guinea, and southeastern Indonesia out of reach of Japan absent an attack on the United States.

In that regard I think the Japanese assessment was correct. I have no doubt that Roosevelt would have found a way to make Balikpapan a US-Managed asset and officially "neutral ground." The more time the Japanese would have spent messing around not attacking the US, the less likely Japan would have been to successfully conclude operations in southern waters.

The other thing is that I can't see Japan developing, in any realistic time frame, any logistical capability for waging even a low-intensity war in Siberia unless they abandoned their effort in China. And even then, China, for all it's relatively low state of economic development (w/ respect to infrastructure) was substantially more developed than eastern and southeastern Siberia. The idea of Japan developing resources in Siberia (absent the giant labor pool of China, and absent any decent logistical infrastructure) within the time frame of WW2 seems very improbable. At least to me.

Yes the japs got handed their *&^ in 38-39 because the russians had their best troops there by 41 the russians were being strained by the germans i just wonder if a jap attack in siberia would have been the straw that broke the camels back.

< Message edited by bobogoboom -- 9/18/2007 6:16:40 PM >

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 6:31:29 PM   
marky


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Status: offline 		i agree

i think if japan had attacked from the east with germany attacking from the west they couldve beaten russia

especially if they had a jointly developed long range bomber to hit the industry the russkies mopved east


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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 7:22:07 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, Siberia had lots of mineral and oil wealth, and also wood. Pretty much ALL of it completely inaccessible to the Japanese, because MOST of it in Eastern Siberia was not accessible in any great way to the Russians in 1941. It was all pretty much undeveloped land. Think Maine or Oregon in 1750. Or Alaska in 1941.

For this to work, Japan has to get an army together to invade the USSR -- which means abandoning China -- and discovers, once they get there, that with perhaps 15 years of investment and development aid, they'll be able to make use of the resources in Siberia, provided that they can find anyone to do the work... which they can't unless they export labor from China -- which they can't because by invading Siberia they'll have abandoned China.

In 1941 the only easily accessible part of Siberia was Vladivostok, and from there the only place one could go was back out to sea.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 9/18/2007 7:24:59 PM >

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 7:27:22 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom
Yes the japs got handed their *&^ in 38-39 because the russians had their best troops there by 41 the russians were being strained by the germans i just wonder if a jap attack in siberia would have been the straw that broke the camels back.



Actually the casualties were suprisingly even in these encounters..., but the Japanese felt they had been beaten. The big problem revealed was that it took most of the Manchurian Army's transport to support a reinforced Division at Kalkin Gol. The simply didn't have the infastructure to support a major incursion into Siberia. They might have taken Vladivostok, but they couldn't support a move West in reality..., and they would have had to go a long way West to get anywhere that mattered.

Why do people always assume that the Soviet Union was "on the verge of collapse" and "one more push" would somehow brought it on. The were in far better shape than Germany was in the Spring of 1944, and even with the successful Invasion of France, the loss of most of Italy, and the Destruction of Army Group Center, the German's dragged the war out another year.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 9:15:29 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Why do people always assume that the Soviet Union was "on the verge of collapse" and "one more push" would somehow brought it on.


Because das ist vas der Fuhrer sprecht und ve all know der Fuhrer ist niematz mistaken.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 10:05:11 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Why do people always assume that the Soviet Union was "on the verge of collapse" and "one more push" would somehow brought it on. The were in far better shape than Germany was in the Spring of 1944, and even with the successful Invasion of France, the loss of most of Italy, and the Destruction of Army Group Center, the German's dragged the war out another year.


In Spring 44, we still had a powerful army and the Luftwaffe hit the Allied AFs still hard. In the East, we were still able to match the Red Air Force.
The turning point came later, the war was not finally lost before mid of August 44...

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 10:06:28 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Why do people always assume that the Soviet Union was "on the verge of collapse" and "one more push" would somehow brought it on.


Because das ist vas der Fuhrer sprecht und ve all know der Fuhrer ist niematz mistaken.

Weil (es=it) das ist, was der Führer spricht und wir alle wissen, (daß/dass = that) der Führer niemals Fehler macht!

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 10:16:00 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Bad English speaking Kraut!


Non German speaking Yankee Doodle

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 10:26:50 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom
Yes the japs got handed their *&^ in 38-39 because the russians had their best troops there by 41 the russians were being strained by the germans i just wonder if a jap attack in siberia would have been the straw that broke the camels back.



Actually the casualties were suprisingly even in these encounters..., but the Japanese felt they had been beaten. The big problem revealed was that it took most of the Manchurian Army's transport to support a reinforced Division at Kalkin Gol. The simply didn't have the infastructure to support a major incursion into Siberia. They might have taken Vladivostok, but they couldn't support a move West in reality..., and they would have had to go a long way West to get anywhere that mattered.

Why do people always assume that the Soviet Union was "on the verge of collapse" and "one more push" would somehow brought it on. The were in far better shape than Germany was in the Spring of 1944, and even with the successful Invasion of France, the loss of most of Italy, and the Destruction of Army Group Center, the German's dragged the war out another year.




Stalin was very worried over it. Of course, he thought he was going to be arrested and deposed shortly after the first German offensive began. It took him several days to snap out of it and get going. Maybe it was that sense of precariousness that leads to that 'conventional wisdom' about an invasion from the east?

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 10:54:28 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom
Yes the japs got handed their *&^ in 38-39 because the russians had their best troops there by 41 the russians were being strained by the germans i just wonder if a jap attack in siberia would have been the straw that broke the camels back.



Actually the casualties were suprisingly even in these encounters..., but the Japanese felt they had been beaten. The big problem revealed was that it took most of the Manchurian Army's transport to support a reinforced Division at Kalkin Gol. The simply didn't have the infastructure to support a major incursion into Siberia. They might have taken Vladivostok, but they couldn't support a move West in reality..., and they would have had to go a long way West to get anywhere that mattered.

Why do people always assume that the Soviet Union was "on the verge of collapse" and "one more push" would somehow brought it on. The were in far better shape than Germany was in the Spring of 1944, and even with the successful Invasion of France, the loss of most of Italy, and the Destruction of Army Group Center, the German's dragged the war out another year.




Stalin was very worried over it. Of course, he thought he was going to be arrested and deposed shortly after the first German offensive began. It took him several days to snap out of it and get going. Maybe it was that sense of precariousness that leads to that 'conventional wisdom' about an invasion from the east?

There were also two peace offers to Germany by Stalin, both delivered by Bulgaria. One shortly after the war began, another when the German troops got close to Moskau. In both offers he was willed to give Germany a massive amount of territory...

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 11:13:02 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Bad English speaking Kraut!


Non German speaking Yankee Doodle

Egregious, philistine!

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Post #: 372
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 11:46:47 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		OT but worth a thought.

Turning points in the ETO/N.Africa/Eastern Front

1939-August 1940: the war was being handily won by Germany.
October 1940-May 1941: Germany was contained, but still winning on points.
May 1941-November 1942: the war was being handily won by Germany.
December 1942-June 1943: Germany was contained and winning on points, but losing points.
July 1943-May 1944: Germany was contained, and winning on points, but the ETO Axis Team was losing on points.
June 1944-Dec 1944: Germany was losing on points.
Jan 1945 + : The end was unavoidable.

I think through November 1942 there was a chance that the Axis could have negotiated a peace had it involved something like a return to Dec 1939 borders and reparations to the USSR, but I can't see any negotiated peace there lasting very long at all.



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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/18/2007 11:56:54 PM   
trollelite

 

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Status: offline 		The game balance is very poor.  I think, as a successful game, it should at least provide a what if scenario that could provide some balance play. If every Japanese player get disgusted with this fact and simply quit ( they can do that, while their historical  counterpart cannot), then what's the use to allies even F4U as strong as F-22? If with corsair even morons can win battle, then the game is dead. 

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 12:14:24 AM   
Charbroiled


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trollelite

...If with corsair even morons can win battle, then the game is dead. 



Wow....I'm really glad that you straightened out my misguided ways. Because of you, I just figured out that I have been wasting the last 3 years of my life on a game that "is dead".

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Post #: 375
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 12:22:10 AM   
trollelite

 

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Status: offline 		I think your confidence to the game already shaken by those invincible corsairs....

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 12:23:58 AM   
trollelite

 

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Status: offline 		Zeros are very strong in early months, but even they sometimes vulnerable while on sweep or escort missions. One can surprise or ambush them, using altitude tactic to chop them down. Against corsair there is no solution. While no-solution invincible component introduced into a human vs human game, the game itself almost a half-failure.

< Message edited by trollelite -- 9/19/2007 12:27:23 AM >

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 12:32:33 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

I take it you're a regular player?

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 12:43:44 AM   
trollelite

 

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Status: offline 		I have only confidence against inexperienced player with this corsair mass..... They could easily be drawn to ambush.

The so-called CAP trap that actually should be prohibited , but with corsair problem I cannot afford to be so chivalric.

< Message edited by trollelite -- 9/19/2007 12:46:32 AM >

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 12:48:09 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There were also two peace offers to Germany by Stalin, both delivered by Bulgaria. One shortly after the war began, another when the German troops got close to Moskau. In both offers he was willed to give Germany a massive amount of territory...


Wow! First I've heard of that. Thanks for the info. I wonder if he meant it to be a 'temporary peace' until SU was more ready?

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 1:31:52 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
OT but worth a thought ...


OT? What hasn't been OT on this uberthread? There are so many different concurrent threads here we could weave a rug!

The original thead went from WitP Corsair combat results/algorithms to Zero vs. Corsair to Zero development, ad infinitum.

And I have no clue what game we're talking about now: ETO?


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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 1:35:00 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
quote:

Bad English speaking Kraut!

Non German speaking Yankee Doodle


I wonder if you both realize that English is a Teutonic (Germanic) language, despite all the French after the Norman Conquest and all the scientific Latin and Greek.


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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 1:41:10 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

In Spring 44, we still had a powerful army and the Luftwaffe hit the Allied AFs still hard. In the East, we were still able to match the Red Air Force.
The turning point came later, the war was not finally lost before mid of August 44...

The turning point came in September of 1939 when the policy of short limited wars fell apart, after this there was little chance of victory; and after June of 1941 defeat was inevitable.

In the spring of 1944 the Germany was incapable of holding off the Soviets alone; add the Western Allies and it wasn’t even close.

At least by the summer of 1943 if not earlier the Luftwaffe had lost its ability to maintain air superiority, the result was devastating to the combat ability of the infantry divisions.



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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 1:49:11 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Frankly, I think the Zero was a brilliant design. It was a solid performer in the early war, though no "superweapon." Strategically it was ideal...
Just to stir the pot.

I think it was an incredible stupid design that ignored most of the lessons of air to air combat; and was strategically unsound.

Game wise as the Japanese, I am thankful when this ‘design concept’ is replaced by more sound aircraft designs, which I quickly take advantage of.


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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 2:03:40 AM   
mdiehl

 

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Would too many heads explode in complete confusion if I mount a defense of the Zero?

It wasn't an aircraft that would win a long war. It was an aircraft that gave the Japanese the ability to extend air superiority to some pretty distant places during the "expansion period" from Dec 1941 through April 1942. You don't need to shoot down enemy fighters to be effective, you merely need to provide good cover for your own operations (so that enemy bombers can't show up) and be able to strategically isolate enemy forward bases (so that you can grind them down by whatever means). If the Japanese had fielded a.c. like the ones the Allies used, their ability to strategically isolate places like Indonesia, the Philippines, and lower Burma (with Ki-43s) would have been greatly reduced. I think their losses to grinding attrition would have been far more damaging from the outset.

Not to mention that raids like Pearl Harbor and Darwin would have been far less likely. Kido Butai did not use the zero's surplus combat radius (as compared with American a.c.) against American TFs largely because the farther you have to fly the less likely you are to find your target. But when your target is fixed and immobile, like a port or an airfield, that range makes a big difference. Had KB to sail closer to Hawaii, its odds of detection would have been far greater, and the odds of taking the US Pacfleet (and more importantly, Ford and Hickam fields) by surprise that much lower.

At least that's how I see it.

For a nation that started the war with inadequate shipping to meet production goals and also provide logistical support, the Zero was a pretty good choice because it economized materials and fuel, while providing great strategic offensive flexibility. The one thing it did not economise on was pilots, but Japan wasn't going to win a long war anyhow, not even with any of the a.c. that they deployed later in the war.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 2:17:24 AM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

For a nation that started the war with inadequate shipping to meet production goals and also provide logistical support,

Interesting. You might want to have a look at these threads in the scenario forum:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1557366
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1560509&mpage=2 (post #47)

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 2:18:38 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
I think it was an incredible stupid design that ignored most of the lessons of air to air combat; and was strategically unsound.



Actually, that's an incredibly stupid statement..., and I asssume it was made "tongue in cheek". The Zero was designed around the requests and demands of Japanese pilots who were fighting in China. It was from the "lessons" they had aquired in combat that most of the Zero's weak points derived. The Combat Pilots demanded "ultra-manueverable" over all other considerations..., because this matched their experiance against the Chinese. Worked pretty well in the opening months of the Pacific War as well, because Allied pilots originally tried to "dog-fight" against it.

It's failings only came to light when the Allies stopped "playing the dogfight game", and began to use the strengths of their own A/C against the Zero's weaknesses. Strategically it was one of the soundest designs of the Pacific War because of it's great range, arguably THE single most important strategic consideration in that theatre.

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 2:21:53 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trollelite

The game balance is very poor. I think, as a successful game, it should at least provide a what if scenario that could provide some balance play. If every Japanese player get disgusted with this fact and simply quit ( they can do that, while their historical counterpart cannot), then what's the use to allies even F4U as strong as F-22? If with corsair even morons can win battle, then the game is dead.


quote:

I think your confidence to the game already shaken by those invincible corsairs....


It's a part of the game, that Japan will finally loose. So why whining about that? The challenge is, to fight better than they historically did...

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Post #: 388
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 2:24:38 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There were also two peace offers to Germany by Stalin, both delivered by Bulgaria. One shortly after the war began, another when the German troops got close to Moskau. In both offers he was willed to give Germany a massive amount of territory...


Wow! First I've heard of that. Thanks for the info. I wonder if he meant it to be a 'temporary peace' until SU was more ready?

Which is indeed no wonder. As you shurly can imagine, Russia wasn't proud of that, so it was kept in secret after the war.

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Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

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Post #: 389
RE: Übercorsair and übercap - 9/19/2007 2:27:23 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
quote:

Bad English speaking Kraut!

Non German speaking Yankee Doodle


I wonder if you both realize that English is a Teutonic (Germanic) language, despite all the French after the Norman Conquest and all the scientific Latin and Greek.


English isn't a teutonic language. It is a mixture of gaelic, latin and the language of the angles and the saxons, which have spoken some kind of germanic language.
This is the reason why there is no shureness for someone with another mother language than english, how to spell it everey time and why some words are similar to french and some to german...

< Message edited by Historiker -- 9/19/2007 2:57:16 AM >

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