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future face - 9/21/2007 10:32:31 AM   
Bungle


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From: Ipswich, Sunny Queensland
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Out of curiosity when will the face of Harpoon be bought in line with contemporary standards. Will the UI catch up with the new century? I personally would like to see this sooner than later.

Its academic now I know, but would it have been more benefical to improve the interaction between the game and user first (ie ehance the look and feel) rather than the anw gameplay/AI changes.

I wonder how others would like to see the UI improve?



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Post #: 1
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 1:02:47 PM   
cuthbo2001

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I seem to remember a poll on HHQ asking for priorities for development. If I remember interface came fairly low.

(in reply to Bungle)
Post #: 2
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 1:55:17 PM   
Dagooz

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		Considering the current problems with the game I would have to agree with that assesment. he UI might be outdated but it works as intended.

(in reply to cuthbo2001)
Post #: 3
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 1:56:48 PM   
Bungle


Posts: 79
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Ipswich, Sunny Queensland
Status: offline 		Im surprised, I thought the hhq elders were advocating the benefits of v3.6.etc over anw, maybe this issue came later. Can you supply a link to the poll if still available please

thanks

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"As so often happens, it's the self-proclaimed
peacemakers that you really have to watch out for."




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Post #: 4
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 2:13:42 PM   
Dagooz

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		Nobody is advocating 3.6 in place of ANW. Merely pointing out what worked in 3.6 that got broken in ANW and thus need fixing.

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Post #: 5
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 3:29:56 PM   
Bungle


Posts: 79
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Ipswich, Sunny Queensland
Status: offline 		Oh, Im sorry dagooz did you misunderstand me?

'advocating the benefits' means very much the same as 'pointing out what worked' it does not mean in the slightest 'in place of' as you suggested.

So it seems that you and I are in total agreement on that point.

I'll do my best to keep it as clear as possible from now on, please accept my apology

thanks

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"As so often happens, it's the self-proclaimed
peacemakers that you really have to watch out for."




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Post #: 6
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 5:26:11 PM   
BurntFingers

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		To answer the question;-

Current UI depends on the Allegro coding tool, which gives easy access to Windows without requiring a MS license.

First step would be ditching Allegro. Which will cost plenty money.

Allegro is at least free, open source etc. 

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Post #: 7
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 7:15:13 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		I think I have said about H2/3's UI is that it is an interface that only a software historian could love. :)

Certainly, it is the engine upon which any sales are based. At the moment, I see the UI as a wall that is a barrier to potentially new players interested in exploring the game.

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Post #: 8
RE: future face - 9/21/2007 7:20:49 PM   
Dagooz

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		Hehe, no need for apologies. Might as well be me who read it wrong. Yeah it seems we agree.

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Post #: 9
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 2:57:00 AM   
Bungle


Posts: 79
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From: Ipswich, Sunny Queensland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

I think I have said about H2/3's UI is that it is an interface that only a software historian could love. :)

Certainly, it is the engine upon which any sales are based. At the moment, I see the UI as a wall that is a barrier to potentially new players interested in exploring the game.


I think your right, I have had people watching me play and they are very interested in the game concept, even considering the lo fi graphics but are very doubtful about the clunckiness of the interface, I remind them to type slow!

I can see that the HCCE interface is looking much as it always did, but it was quite user freindly and windows savy.

thanks

_____________________________

The Bungle

"As so often happens, it's the self-proclaimed
peacemakers that you really have to watch out for."




(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 10
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 8:47:09 AM   
analog

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		FWIW, I'll take an accurate simulation that is more or less user friendly over eye candy graphics. The guys fighting the ship look at pretty much the same as the existing UI, so I do not have a problem with it.

That said, changing the UI to suit a larger mass of "armchair admirals" for marketing reasons makes sense, part of this whole thing is putting food on the table for the developers and everybody else in the "food chain", so market forces and paying customer desires count.

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Post #: 11
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 6:48:30 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		Personally, I'm not interested in 3d graphics for this game.  What I'd like to see is solid colors for the different land elevations / water depths instead of having it all black with those crosses.  Shouldn't be too hard to implement since the basics are already in place.
Post #: 12
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 7:09:05 PM   
Bungle


Posts: 79
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Ipswich, Sunny Queensland
Status: offline 		I think just about everyone agrees that G-play rates above the UI, yeah? But if you had that chance to change the UI in anyway what would blow your hair back?

Personally the first thing I would like to see is some 'contemporary' looking and functioning in game control panels/windows, standard 1 click buttons, perhaps the addition of scroll buttons when not in max mode. When repositioning panels they move smoothly across the game window without trails when the action is getting 'large'.  Simple things to me but maybe not so simple to accomplish? What about those load out windows for launch and mission .... select and re scroll to select next and re scoll to......aaaaaagghh!

Interesting about the 3d aspect tho......... Im not sure how this is applied,  which maps are you guys thinking about toying with VCDH?

_____________________________

The Bungle

"As so often happens, it's the self-proclaimed
peacemakers that you really have to watch out for."




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Post #: 13
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 8:30:42 PM   
JRyan


Posts: 555
Joined: 3/29/2005
Status: offline 		I think first get the accuracy and models right. The 'Eye Candy" can come later...

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Post #: 14
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 10:58:11 PM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline 		It's more than "eye candy" that's wrong with this UI - it's just really, really bad.  It was really bad back in 1995? on my hot new 66mhz 486.  I'd really hoped that some basic improvements had been made for this release - instead I ended up putting the game in a drawer.  I don't care what other aspects are patched, I'm unlikely to take it back out unless I hear the UI has been updated a bit.

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Post #: 15
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 11:37:13 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		I just realized why this games looks so much older than many of the other old DOS games I play like: Aces of the Deep (original), Silent Hunter (original), 1830, Railroad Tycoon Deluxe, Complete Carriers at War, ... These games I just listed are actually older, use true DOS, 256 colors, and in some cases CGA or EGA graphics ...

My games playing under DOSBOX despite being old do look like PC games with PC style interfaces. H3 on the other hand looks more like the early raster oriented terminal work stations of the 70s/80s that were just just one step up from the original monochrome and pure text based terminals that appeared as an alternative to punched cards and print outs following the 1960s. Harpoon3 looks nothing like anything that typically was developed for the PC AT or compatibles.

So, what you have is an extremely spartan interface that reflects the state of hardware prior to the introduction of bit mapped devices and applications. The game's interface only reflects two concepts that are fairly standard for the modern day: the mouse and resizeable windows. Even the true DOS games which I listed above running in very low resolution, without windowing, with limited mouse support, and very blocky graphics reflect a higher level of hardware/software evolution (the comming of bit mapped graphics and integrated hardware video cards with mapped memory displays).

---

So, enjoy this interface while it still exists. Such a presentation ceased to be common place for 30-40 years and is as foreign to young people today as record players, audio tape, coin operated telephones, steel wheel roller skates ...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MarkShot -- 9/22/2007 11:41:59 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 11:47:17 PM   
Dagooz

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		Record players and Coin telephones foreign? Damn, I need to catch up then

< Message edited by Dagooz -- 9/22/2007 11:48:49 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: future face - 9/22/2007 11:54:21 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Add B/W TV to that list too; exhorbitantly priced long distance/overseas phone calling; communicating via written letters; the Berlin Wall ...

Maybe it is time for a new advertising campaign for Harpoon3. "Harpoon3 a software time machine ready to transport you back to the Cold War. Other games merely attempt to simulate history. Harpoon3 is history!" :)

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Post #: 18
RE: future face - 9/23/2007 12:35:52 AM   
Banquet

 

Posts: 1184
Joined: 8/23/2002
From: England
Status: offline 		There are two aspects here.. the graphics and the UI.

I personally like the graphics. I know they're simple but they look like the sort of displays I imagine are in warships. I have no idea what they have in warships. They're probably more advanced in modern warships and don't exist at all in older ships... but I think it's a good compromise and they get my imagination brain cells ticking. When I look at H3 on my computer monitor I see fast jets, helo's, frigates, etc.

Then there is the UI. To me it's pure Windows 3.1. The first time I played H3 (some version prior to 3.6) I couldn't get into it at all because of the UI. When ANW was released I gave it another go and tried to get past the UI, into the flashes of greatness I'd seen in the earlier version. It worked and I've had a lot of great, tense, times playing ANW. It's my favourite naval wargame and imo the best carrier ops game I've played.

Even playing it now, though, I can't help but dream of how more manageable it would be with a re-designed interface. It would make so much difference!

I also agree with a previous poster who mentioned the map graphics (land, sea depth, etc) graphics could be better.

I am a believer though. I can see why other games, attempting 3d graphics, have failed.. where H3 has lived on. It's got atmosphere in spades..

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Post #: 19
RE: future face - 9/23/2007 3:26:59 AM   
Bungle


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From: Ipswich, Sunny Queensland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JRyan

I think first get the accuracy and models right. The 'Eye Candy" can come later...


Yeah, agreed, bugs need fixing Im sure and crowd pleasing eye candy can wait, but tell us Ryan what aspects of the UI would you like to see changed?

Isnt there anything? its just a wish list an, pie in the sky..............

_____________________________

The Bungle

"As so often happens, it's the self-proclaimed
peacemakers that you really have to watch out for."




(in reply to JRyan)
Post #: 20
RE: future face - 9/23/2007 5:04:47 AM   
analog

 

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Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

So, enjoy this interface while it still exists. Such a presentation ceased to be common place for 30-40 years and is as foreign to young people today as record players, audio tape, coin operated telephones, steel wheel roller skates ...
quote:



Stray off topic a bit.. I still have and use some ancient audio equipment, pretty much everything I have was top of the line 25 years ago and still works and I still use it, and it will still make my ears bleed if I turn it up to the max.


My personal opinion is the UI is just that, the means the game engine interfaces with the player, and the exchange of information between the two is the most important part of it, however it is accomplished. If a new UI enhances that, all the better. If there is some specific changes that can be elaborated, that would be great. Extra stuff like 3d graphics may appeal to some, but this is not a first person type of "game". The whole battle space is pretty much an abstract projection generated from sensors. So any improvements should enhance the display of information from the sensors and enable the player to easily act on that information.



I am analog for a reason, records and tape maybe make me a relic, but I am a happy relic

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RE: future face - 9/23/2007 5:08:09 AM   
analog

 

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Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I know they're simple but they look like the sort of displays I imagine are in warships. I have no idea what they have in warships. They're probably more advanced in modern warships and don't exist at all in older ships... but I think it's a good compromise and they get my imagination brain cells ticking.


Hey, I thin I figured out this quote thingy.

The existing display is not too far off from the real thing if you are using the NTDS symbol set

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Post #: 22
RE: future face - 9/24/2007 7:27:52 PM   
JRyan


Posts: 555
Joined: 3/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bungle



Yeah, agreed, bugs need fixing I'm sure and crowd pleasing eye candy can wait, but tell us Ryan what aspects of the UI would you like to see changed?

Isn't there anything? its just a wish list an, pie in the sky..............


Something in the range of what Harpoon 4 was to be or even a "Fleet Commandish" type one. Right now the push is for the underlying accuracy and such. It is critical to have that first as anyone who spent time with Fleet Command knows well.

The New harpoon Commander might be just what some want, but for me the H3 interface is fine, its underneath that matter most to me. I mean a quick fix would be new videos and database pictures and such and that is underway by some in the community at this time anyway. There are not groups of programmers working on this since it is such a niche game.

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RE: future face - 9/25/2007 2:27:02 AM   
NEC1163


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quote:

ORIGINAL:
So, enjoy this interface while it still exists. Such a presentation ceased to be common place for 30-40 years and is as foreign to young people today as record players, audio tape, coin operated telephones, steel wheel roller skates ...


I thought the Color/BW switch on my pong console was cool...

I also enjoy the realistic interface. It's very similar to the real thing (at least the console I sat in front of 20 years ago).

M

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Post #: 24
RE: future face - 11/2/2007 3:53:56 AM   
KlubMarcus


Posts: 41
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NEC1163
quote:

ORIGINAL: So, enjoy this interface while it still exists. Such a presentation ceased to be common place for 30-40 years and is as foreign to young people today as record players, audio tape, coin operated telephones, steel wheel roller skates ...
I thought the Color/BW switch on my pong console was cool... I also enjoy the realistic interface. It's very similar to the real thing (at least the console I sat in front of 20 years ago). M
The H3:ANW user interface does look a lot like a warship's theatre screen (especially if you pick the Aegis display option). It just needs to be more user-friendly because you don't have an entire staff helping you "fight" in the game. What the user interface really needs is a right-click menu option when you select a contact. Now how cool would that be, huh?

(in reply to NEC1163)
Post #: 25
RE: future face - 11/23/2007 2:51:19 AM   
Blacklight

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		I personally LOVE the raster looking 2D graphics of H3ANW (I DO like the idea of making elevation lines instead of the little crosses however). I think the raster almost monochrome image really gives me the feeling that I'm a naval commander in the Pentagon looking at his situation screen and giving orders.  I think instead of graphics, the interface should be the focus.  It's VERY clunky.  I could care less about 3D graphics and don't want them.  Harpoon is made to give you that "In the Pentagon Navy Situation Room" feeling and it works well.  Yes there are bugs.  There are always going to be bugs in anything with this much complexity going on behind the screen, but most of these bugs aren't showstoppers and aren't noticable to the average user anyway.  I'm not saying "Let's not address them." but I'd like to see the interface be the number one priority.

Also, am I right that Harpoon Commander's Edition is pretty much an updated version of the Original Harpoon and is a step down from what's possible in H3ANW ?   Everything I've read has been a little vague describing the differences between the two.  Is there an area that really compares individual features side by side or can someone type one out for me ?

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Post #: 26
RE: future face - 11/23/2007 6:34:12 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
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From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blacklight
Also, am I right that Harpoon Commander's Edition is pretty much an updated version of the Original Harpoon and is a step down from what's possible in H3ANW ?   Everything I've read has been a little vague describing the differences between the two.  Is there an area that really compares individual features side by side or can someone type one out for me ?


Yes, HCE is a continuation of the Harpoon Classic line, which is a totally separate assemblage of programming from H2/3/ANW.

Is HCE a step down from what's possible in H3ANW? In some ways yes, in some ways ANW is a step down. Either way you argue the point (and I'm a firm believer that it does go both ways, HC has mobile land units for instance, ANW doesn't. But ANW has a more detailed radar model, HCE doesn't). asking whether it is a "step down" is asking for trouble.

I know of no public side by side comparison of features (which of course doesn't mean it doesn't exist). HC vs H3 is a topic left pretty vague in the hopes of avoiding flame wars and is one of the few areas everyone seems to hold a truce. Now in private you can get an earful from representatives of both sides. If you want to hear the glory that is H3 and the crap that is HC we can match you up. If you want to hear the glory of HC and the wreck that is H3, we can match you up, but that will hopefully be taken private for the good of all Harpoon players.

The only real answer is to play each game, there is a ANW USNI demo to try, HCE doesn't have one (yet) but you get the basic feel by tracking down old HC demos here and there; until there is a HCE demo.

If you want to reply to this topic I think it'd be great to post into a more 'on topic' thread such as http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1516772

< Message edited by TonyE -- 11/23/2007 6:42:54 AM >

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Tony Eischens
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Post #: 27
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