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The influence of altitude in air combat

 
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The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/23/2007 8:51:09 AM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		I thought for fighter vs fighter combat, the altitude had no influence, but it seem that is not correct.
Can anyone tell me or give me a tip on what the influences of altitude are in air combat? For example P39 vs zero or P40 vs zero.
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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/23/2007 9:05:55 AM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		P-39 and P-400s take a big hit when flying over 10000 ft.

Refer to rule 17.3 - they take -1 pt. maneuver for each 1000 feet, up to -15.

EDIT - other aircraft are (currently) unaffected.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 9/23/2007 9:08:17 AM >

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/23/2007 9:23:34 AM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Hi rtrapasso, thanks for reminding me this rule.
But I still have some questions

1. for P39 P400, they should fight at the height <10000. But what are the differences if the planes fly at 5000, 7000 or 8000? The same?

2. Except P39 P400, other planes will not be affected by the altitude?

3. I thought it is better for the fighters to occupy a higher altitude before combat. Is this true in the game?

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/23/2007 1:39:39 PM   
VSWG


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		Yes, relative altitude matters in A2A combat. You can find a 'Must Read' thread callled "The effects of altitude on A2A combat" in section II.D of there:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1274014


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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/23/2007 5:25:36 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		 So I take it the "bounce factor" isn't that important? I would have thought that despite being sluggish at 30,000 , a P-39 diving from that altitude would be faster and more deadly than one stooging around at the same height as his opponet.

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/23/2007 10:38:02 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So I take it the "bounce factor" isn't that important? I would have thought that despite being sluggish at 30,000 , a P-39 diving from that altitude would be faster and more deadly than one stooging around at the same height as his opponet.


i don't think this kind of thing is modeled in the game... also, fighters diving from great altitude often ended in getting into great problems ("compression"), esp. if they were fast, and had a high-lift wing (i.e.- it first was most noticeable on the P-38, but other aircraft ran into similar problems when they tried high-altitude dives...)

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/24/2007 9:43:23 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

 So I take it the "bounce factor" isn't that important? I would have thought that despite being sluggish at 30,000 , a P-39 diving from that altitude would be faster and more deadly than one stooging around at the same height as his opponet.



the "bounce factor" is not only important it´s massively important. Though the bounce has not as much to do with the alt you set your fighters but more with Allied radar. With enough radar in range of the attacked hex, you will see 100% of the available fighters in the air, with 90% of the fighters bouncing the incoming enemy, even if you set your fighters to 1000 feet and the enemy comes in at 30.000 ft.



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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/28/2007 8:45:18 AM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks castor troy, you give me a lot of informations

So the most important factor is radar, no matter at what altitude the planes fly.

But I still have one question:

for example, when a 1000 feet plane bounce a 30000 feet one, what is the exact altitute they meet each other? I think it is very important, even a p39 "bounce" a zero at 30000, because of the low maneuver, it must be very hard to shot down zero for p39

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/28/2007 10:11:49 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zhengxuacmilan

Thanks castor troy, you give me a lot of informations

So the most important factor is radar, no matter at what altitude the planes fly.

But I still have one question:

for example, when a 1000 feet plane bounce a 30000 feet one, what is the exact altitute they meet each other? I think it is very important, even a p39 "bounce" a zero at 30000, because of the low maneuver, it must be very hard to shot down zero for p39



It is difficult for planes flying at altitude to to intercept ones flying at low altitude. Usually it does not occur. The reverse is also true. It takes time for scrambling planes to get up to altitude, and if they are very high up, low level aircraft will not have time to intercept, even if radar is involved. This is esp. true for aircraft with low climb rates.

There are no set formulas that you can rely on in this game - too many die rolls involved, and this is by design.

EDIT - So, even if an interception DID occur, you can not count on any set altitude.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 9/28/2007 10:16:34 PM >

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/28/2007 10:15:38 PM   
KPAX


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From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline 		So, Rtrap, if you have say three fighter units to fly CAP, set them at, say, 30k, 20k and 10k, as an example ? 

Spredad teh altitudes out between the various fighter units ?

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Thanks !!

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/28/2007 10:24:44 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

So, Rtrap, if you have say three fighter units to fly CAP, set them at, say, 30k, 20k and 10k, as an example ? 

Spredad teh altitudes out between the various fighter units ?



Some folks will do this... it will help prevent a low-level attack from sneaking in against a high-alt CAP, or a high-level attack avoiding a low-level CAP.


i should say that in the example before - where someone comes in at 30000 feet, and the radar-directed fighters try to intercept - that if it is LEVEL bombers attacking (alone) - that the intercept (if it happens) will occur somewhere around 30000 feet. If there are a fighters escorting, who knows where the intercept takes place? The numbers are not given in the report or animation.

If there are fighters on a sweep, the sweeping fighters will generally drop down to attack the defenders (if the attackers are at higher altitude). This is the basis of the "flak trap" defense: a defender (presumably without radar) will set his fighters at, say, 100' - the sweeping attacker will drop down to 100' to attack - and get themselves shot up by the base flak. This can be devastating (and it occasionally happened historically - pilots tend to focus on their target to the exclusion of all else, and fly into danger when they SHOULD have known better.)

If the attackers are divebombers or torpedo bombers - i would GUESS the intercepts take place near the attackers set altitude, however, since divebombers drop down to 2000', and torpedo planes to 200' - this MIGHT not be always true.


< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 9/28/2007 10:27:02 PM >

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/28/2007 11:01:29 PM   
goodboyladdie


Posts: 3469
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From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
Status: offline 		I saw a P-39 for the first time at Duxford earlier this month. I was very impressed. It was fast and agile at the low altitudes it was displaying at and was smaller than the P-51 in the air at the same time, so would have been a harder target. I can see why the Russians like them.

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RE: The influence of altitude in air combat - 9/29/2007 12:21:29 PM   
castor troy


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: zhengxuacmilan

Thanks castor troy, you give me a lot of informations

So the most important factor is radar, no matter at what altitude the planes fly.

But I still have one question:

for example, when a 1000 feet plane bounce a 30000 feet one, what is the exact altitute they meet each other? I think it is very important, even a p39 "bounce" a zero at 30000, because of the low maneuver, it must be very hard to shot down zero for p39



It is difficult for planes flying at altitude to to intercept ones flying at low altitude. Usually it does not occur. The reverse is also true. It takes time for scrambling planes to get up to altitude, and if they are very high up, low level aircraft will not have time to intercept, even if radar is involved. This is esp. true for aircraft with low climb rates.

There are no set formulas that you can rely on in this game - too many die rolls involved, and this is by design.

EDIT - So, even if an interception DID occur, you can not count on any set altitude.



all you say is true - theoretically. I´ve played around with altitude in the game so long until I came to the conclusion that there´s just no sense in doing it beginning from the time when ALLIED RADAR is the most important UBER factor in the game.

Small, reasonable numbers of planes on the offense and defense during the early months of the war and you will see (at least you think you see) that different alt settings can make a difference. Later when the usual air battle will have 100-500 planes involved and 100% of the map is covered by Allied radar, then no alt setting will make any difference. Tried it more than a hundred times - without success.

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