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OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 1:19:38 AM   
TommyG


Posts: 273
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Irvine Ca
Status: offline 		Did anyone watch this highly touted thing? I got bored after 10 minutes and turned back to football. It seemed slow, politically correct, and not terribly accurate. But, I didn't give it much of a chance. What say you all?
Post #: 1
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 1:22:55 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
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From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		i missed itt

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RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 1:56:16 AM   
Andvari

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, it is slow, but what did you think was inaccurate?

As to being politically correct, are you saying the internment camps and racism in the U.S. isn't relevant to a program about WWII? Should that part be skipped?

I'm sure most of us on the forum know more than Burns about WWII battles and operations, and have seen a lot of the footage and stills, but I'm watching it for the individual's stories. You can read any number of books, new and old, if you just want more about battles won and lost.

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Post #: 3
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:01:41 AM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andvari


As to being politically correct, are you saying the internment camps and racism in the U.S. isn't relevant to a program about WWII? Should that part be skipped?




Not to start something ugly in this thread, take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Was-There-Breaking-Secrets-Harbor/dp/1568523475

The US Government had very good reason for the internment camps. The author doesn't talk about the camps really, but he does go into the espionage in the Nissei community.

< Message edited by AU Tiger -- 9/25/2007 2:28:18 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:19:07 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The definition of racism:  "The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

The U.S. government was not practicing racism when restrictions were placed on Japanese-Americans.  The government's actions were not based upon a belief that Americans were superior to the Japanese, but rather in fear that people with ties to Japan were a security risk.  Whether the U.S. fears were well-grounded or not - and whether the measures taken were too extreme - I cannot say. But in times of great stress, danger, and uncertainty, justice and moderation usually yield for a time to the overwhelming desire to achieve safety and security.

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RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:20:17 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andvari


As to being politically correct, are you saying the internment camps and racism in the U.S. isn't relevant to a program about WWII? Should that part be skipped?




Not to start something ugly in this thread, take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Was-There-Breaking-Secrets-Harbor/dp/1568523475

The US Government had very good reason for the interment camps. The author doesn't talk about the camps really, but he does go into the espionage in the Nissei community.


i get a link to "And I Was There" - a book i've read... i don't think it supports what you said (Nissei spying) - there was JAPANESE spying by members of the Japanese consulate in Honolulu - not the Nissei.

Also - note that they did NOT imprison the persons of Japanese descent on Hawaii (where the spying by the consular officials did happen) but 3000 miles away - on the West Coast.

Also, does the fact that some people "might have been spying" justify imprisoning a class of people?

(in reply to AU Tiger_MatrixForum)
Post #: 6
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:29:46 AM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andvari


As to being politically correct, are you saying the internment camps and racism in the U.S. isn't relevant to a program about WWII? Should that part be skipped?




Not to start something ugly in this thread, take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Was-There-Breaking-Secrets-Harbor/dp/1568523475

The US Government had very good reason for the interment camps. The author doesn't talk about the camps really, but he does go into the espionage in the Nissei community.


i get a link to "And I Was There" - a book i've read... i don't think it supports what you said (Nissei spying) - there was JAPANESE spying by members of the Japanese consulate in Honolulu - not the Nissei.

Also - note that they did NOT imprison the persons of Japanese descent on Hawaii (where the spying by the consular officials did happen) but 3000 miles away - on the West Coast.

Also, does the fact that some people "might have been spying" justify imprisoning a class of people?



Certainly not, but the information makes their actions understandable if not acceptable.

You may want to go back and read that chapter again, although it describe the consular spying in more detail, it also talked about the other "spy rings" that "Purple" revealed.

_____________________________

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Post #: 7
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:36:00 AM   
mikemike

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: a maze of twisty little passages, all different
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger



The US Government had very good reason for the interment camps. The author doesn't talk about the camps really, but he does go into the espionage in the Nissei community.


i get a link to "And I Was There" - a book i've read... i don't think it supports what you said (Nissei spying) - there was JAPANESE spying by members of the Japanese consulate in Honolulu - not the Nissei.

Also - note that they did NOT imprison the persons of Japanese descent on Hawaii (where the spying by the consular officials did happen) but 3000 miles away - on the West Coast.

Also, does the fact that some people "might have been spying" justify imprisoning a class of people?



To further the point rtrapasso made: has there been any widespread internment of German or Italian immigrants or their descendants to the third generation? Were Germans and Italians deemed less likely to do espionage and sabotage? Were Germany and Italy seen as a lesser threat vs. Japan? Certainly not. In WWI, sauerkraut became liberty cabbage for patriotic reasons. I don't recall a renaming of spaghetti in WWII. Neither did New Braunfels, Texas, feel compelled to rename itself Patriotville. THERE is your racism, or do you think there is a better explanation for the difference in treatment?

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Post #: 8
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:39:02 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Locking up the Japanese is controversial and there was definitely an element of racism involved.  I agree that the Nissei were not involved in spying.  I have read that the Japanese government tried to recruit them, but had little luck.

I've known a fair number of Japanese who had been in the camps.  A good friend of my father is the son of Toyo Miyatake, who became famous for taking pictures at Manzanar.  http://www.janm.org/mediaarts/projects/toyo.html

Our across the street neighbor growing up had also been in a camp in Idaho.

One thing all my parent's friends talked about was the danger they faced on the street as Japanese Americans.  They felt the camps were protecting them from racist Americans who wanted to lynch them. 

The guards at the camps were somewhat paranoid at the beginning, but security became very lax after a few months.  My father's friend and his brothers would frequently leave camp to go fishing and they would share their catch with the guards.  Technically they weren't supposed to leave, but the guards let them walk out the front gate.

I do think that locking up American citizens due to their ethnicity or some other factor they can't control was wrong.  Some Japanese who had gone into the camps ended up losing their property when they returned, and the government turned a blind eye towards it.  This is also flat out wrong.  The Japanese we knew were fortunate enough to entrust their property to people who returned it to them after the war.

I watched about an hour of the program last night.  I have the rest recorded and will watch it later.  They did make a few factual errors in the background material and the pace was a bit slow.  The focus of the series is not to be a comprehensive history of the war, but to tell the story of a handful of Americans from across the US and tell their personal story.

Bill

Bill


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RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:47:19 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

You may want to go back and read that chapter again, although it describe the consular spying in more detail, it also talked about the other "spy rings" that "Purple" revealed.


As i recall, there were numerous allegations - but never any proof of anything - lots of "mysterious transmissions" that some people said must be Japanese spying, and therefore "must have been by the Nissei" ... according to some, but iirc, not by Layton himself.

Unfortunately, the book is gone after my last move, so i'll have to find another copy.

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Post #: 10
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:57:26 AM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

You may want to go back and read that chapter again, although it describe the consular spying in more detail, it also talked about the other "spy rings" that "Purple" revealed.


As i recall, there were numerous allegations - but never any proof of anything - lots of "mysterious transmissions" that some people said must be Japanese spying, and therefore "must have been by the Nissei" ... according to some, but iirc, not by Layton himself.

Unfortunately, the book is gone after my last move, so i'll have to find another copy.


Now that I opened this can of worms I am no longer sure that Layton's book is where I got that information. (It has been a while since I read it.) I will check it myself when I get home later.


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Post #: 11
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 3:47:31 AM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Well, it has been several (5? 6?) years since i read the book - maybe i haven't recalled what you are speaking of.

THere was quite a bit about the Pearl Harbor "Bomb Plot" and the "Bomb Plot Message" in the book, but again, that spying has done by a Japanese Consulate official.

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Post #: 12
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 4:18:52 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		My SO gave me a CBS history set on DVD for Christmas a year or two back and I just recently started watching them.  It looks like a series that Walter Chronchite did back in the 80s.  At least the intro bits look like the 80s and the copyright date is 1983 or something like that.  I think the programs themselves are older.

Anyway, in one episode they had an interview with the consolate spy who did the spying on Pearl harbor before the war.  He detailed what he did.  I believe he said he put out some feelers to some Nissei, but none of the American born Japanese had any interest in supporting Japan.

Bill


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RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 5:38:37 AM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline 		As it turns out, I can't find my copy either. I probably packed it into one of several boxes now residing in my attic.

Back on topic, I am watching the PBS show now, and enjoying it immensely.



< Message edited by AU Tiger -- 9/25/2007 6:20:11 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 6:02:05 AM   
Coach Z

 

Posts: 576
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From: New York
Status: offline 		WDOLSON YOU ARE CORRECT!! I did my senior Thesis as a History Major on the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor and all the planning thereof. None of the local Nisei were involved nor did they have any interest in helping. Too bad that was in the days before computers or shall I say before MOST consumers owned their own computers I'd sure love to have those 60 some odd pages back! (Or at least a copy)

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Post #: 15
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 6:37:07 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		There's a subtle, but important difference between bigotry and racism. What several of you are calling racism is actually bigotry, not racism.

Bigotry is disliking another person or group of persons because of their race. If during World War II Americans disliked or mistrusted Japanese because they were Japanese, that's bigotry.

There wasn't any notion that the American race - if there is such - was superior to the Japanese race, so racism wasn't involved. Now, you might have a valid argument if you contend that the Japanese were racist to an extent - and certainly it applied to German views about Jews and some other groups.

The nuance between racism and bigotry is lost on most folks. Only a few care enough about accuracy and precision to understand the difference.

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Post #: 16
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 6:52:44 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The definition of racism:  "The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

The U.S. government was not practicing racism when restrictions were placed on Japanese-Americans.  The government's actions were not based upon a belief that Americans were superior to the Japanese, but rather in fear that people with ties to Japan were a security risk.  Whether the U.S. fears were well-grounded or not - and whether the measures taken were too extreme - I cannot say. But in times of great stress, danger, and uncertainty, justice and moderation usually yield for a time to the overwhelming desire to achieve safety and security.



More than anything else, it was politics. Few Japanese in Hawaii were locked up, and they were a larger percentage of the population there than in any state. In fact, the overwhelming number of Japanese Americans "interned" were from California, where panic and politics combined with greed to stir up a big political storm..., which Roosevelt caved in to. I've always thought he was worried about the backlash over Pearl Harbor and didn't want to tackle the California Politico's at the same time. Most Japanese Americans in other areas of the country remained in place. Shunned and discriminated against, but not interned. The whole thing is a national embarressment and a disgrace.

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Post #: 17
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 8:40:13 AM   
Snowman999

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There's a subtle, but important difference between bigotry and racism. What several of you are calling racism is actually bigotry, not racism.

Bigotry is disliking another person or group of persons because of their race. If during World War II Americans disliked or mistrusted Japanese because they were Japanese, that's bigotry.

There wasn't any notion that the American race - if there is such - was superior to the Japanese race, so racism wasn't involved. Now, you might have a valid argument if you contend that the Japanese were racist to an extent - and certainly it applied to German views about Jews and some other groups.

The nuance between racism and bigotry is lost on most folks. Only a few care enough about accuracy and precision to understand the difference.


Well, you're adding to the inaccuracy by flinging "race" around in contexts it doesn't belong. The word was squishy when it was first used by Henry the Navigator ( I think) to divide humanity into three parts and it's gotten a lot squishier since. Japanese aren't a "race" and "Americans" certainly aren't. We're mutts maybe, but no kind of race.

Whatever the group called "Japanese" was American media and politicians certainly sold the idea that they were inferior and Americans superior. Short, weak, near-sighted, unable to think for themselves, rice-chompin', pagan, baby-killin' monsters--and we made the movies and posters to sell these ideas.

Japanese culture sold the idea internally that they were superior as well.

But that doesn't get to the core fact that the folks in the camps were mostly American CITIZENS, not Japanese anything. And the reason they were in camps was because they looked Japanese and not like those "real" Americans whose ancestors had come from Germany and Italy. (My great-grandmother was alive and well in upstate NY in 1941, recently off the boat from Kaiserland and not speaking a word of American, or English for that matter.)

As others have said, possibly our worst hour as a nation, perhaps matched only by recent prisoner torture performed in all our names.

Steve

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Post #: 18
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 1:16:48 PM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

WDOLSON YOU ARE CORRECT!! I did my senior Thesis as a History Major on the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor and all the planning thereof. None of the local Nisei were involved nor did they have any interest in helping. Too bad that was in the days before computers or shall I say before MOST consumers owned their own computers I'd sure love to have those 60 some odd pages back! (Or at least a copy)


Doesn't your school library retain a copy? I had to do a senior project thesis for my bachelor's and I had to provide a copy to the library for archiving.

Different schools probably do it differently. I went to Cal Poly SLO in the Cal State system.

Bill

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Post #: 19
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 1:34:10 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There's a subtle, but important difference between bigotry and racism. What several of you are calling racism is actually bigotry, not racism.

Bigotry is disliking another person or group of persons because of their race. If during World War II Americans disliked or mistrusted Japanese because they were Japanese, that's bigotry.

There wasn't any notion that the American race - if there is such - was superior to the Japanese race, so racism wasn't involved. Now, you might have a valid argument if you contend that the Japanese were racist to an extent - and certainly it applied to German views about Jews and some other groups.

The nuance between racism and bigotry is lost on most folks. Only a few care enough about accuracy and precision to understand the difference.


True. One time a census taker came to the door and was going through the form. When he came to the question about race, I answered none of the above. I pointed out that there was only one race: the human one. He agreed I had a point and put "Other - Human" on the form.

The west coast states had a lot of bigotry/racism (whatever you want to call it) with Asians that went back to when California was still a territory. By WW II, it was a traditional rift and few people knew why. A lot of it was due to white's in the 19th century believing that they were superior to all other ethnic groups, but getting shown up by first generation Asians who were often better than whites at business and tended to be fast learners.

Many laws were passed trying to handicap the Asians and make them look bad. Whites also tried to get them hooked on opium to keep them down. California had laws banning Asians from owning land at one point.

When WW II started, the old animosity resurfaced. Whites who couldn't tell the difference attacked Chinese Americans as well as Japanese Americans. The removal of Japanese Americans from the three west coast states was partially caving in to the pressures from whites in those states, but it also had some practical reasons of keeping the social order together at a time when the war planning board was looking to remove distractions that would keep people from working evry hour they could.

Also remember that a significant portion of the US aircraft production was in California and Washington State. Consolidated, Lockheed, Northrop, North American, Douglas, and Boeing all had their factories on the west coast. Some of the most important industries in those early days of the war were in the region that was at highest risk for race riots.

Hawaii had no significant industries vital to the war effort, didn't have the historical tensions between whites and Asians, and had a large non-white population, into which the Asians blended. Hawaii was not a state then and since it was at the end of a tenuous life line to begin with, it was lamost under martial law.

Civilians in Hawaii suffered quite badly during the war. Common things like toilet paper became virtually impossible to obtain except on the black market for most of the war. The black market was fed by supplies pilfered from the military, who got first priority in shipping to Hawaii.

Bill

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Post #: 20
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 2:18:04 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I like the Ken Burns' series, but noticed a technical flaw.
In episode 2, a B17 is taking off and the dubbed in sound is clearly a single engine plane!.(Possibly an SNJ?)

I don't think the film is meant to be a primer on the war, so much as how it affected the 4 towns and its' citizens, civilian and military.

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Post #: 21
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 3:54:44 PM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

WDOLSON YOU ARE CORRECT!! I did my senior Thesis as a History Major on the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor and all the planning thereof. None of the local Nisei were involved nor did they have any interest in helping. Too bad that was in the days before computers or shall I say before MOST consumers owned their own computers I'd sure love to have those 60 some odd pages back! (Or at least a copy)


Doesn't your school library retain a copy? I had to do a senior project thesis for my bachelor's and I had to provide a copy to the library for archiving.

Different schools probably do it differently. I went to Cal Poly SLO in the Cal State system.

Bill


Very likely it does but I don't think I will be walking there today. The engineering department is a loooooooooooooong way from the library, and I have to go to work as soon as class gets out. Tonight I will have time to go through the boxes in the attic though.


_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 4:20:31 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I read a few years ago a piece by Tammy Bruce (Tammy Bruce: The death of right and wrong) I can't get to my copy until the weekend, so I can't quote exactly, but the general gist is as follows:
She was taking a class in some west coast university and the issue of internment of Japanese Maericans came up; She mentioned that Italian Americans and German Americans were interned too. She was almost pilloried until the professor reluctantly stepped in and asked if she had any proof. The next class she provided the appropriate references.
Again, I can't provide the actual reference until the weekend, but it appears that at least some German americans and Japanese Americans were interned too.

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Post #: 23
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 4:45:16 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		I think the major bone of contention is that all enemy aliens were interned. In the case of the Japanese , many interned were actuall US citizens. But the executive order said any body who was seen as a danger could be relocated from a vital defense area (like near the coasts or a war production area). A Japanese American living next to Mare Island would probably be picked up. One living in Kansas wouldn't. I don't know if it was right or wrong (perhaps we will never know) but scared people do extreme things. And on December 8 , 1941 the people of the United States were very , very scared and very, very , very angry. The armed forces of Japan were 3,000 + miles away (but closing) , but your Japanese American neighbor is right in front of you. An angry , irrational man is going to kick his neighbor. On December 8 , 1941 I think that US was a little irrational. It doesn't make it right , just understandable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

I read a few years ago a piece by Tammy Bruce (Tammy Bruce: The death of right and wrong) I can't get to my copy until the weekend, so I can't quote exactly, but the general gist is as follows:
She was taking a class in some west coast university and the issue of internment of Japanese Maericans came up; She mentioned that Italian Americans and German Americans were interned too. She was almost pilloried until the professor reluctantly stepped in and asked if she had any proof. The next class she provided the appropriate references.
Again, I can't provide the actual reference until the weekend, but it appears that at least some German americans and Japanese Americans were interned too.


(in reply to kaleun)
Post #: 24
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 5:42:39 PM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

I read a few years ago a piece by Tammy Bruce (Tammy Bruce: The death of right and wrong) I can't get to my copy until the weekend, so I can't quote exactly, but the general gist is as follows:
She was taking a class in some west coast university and the issue of internment of Japanese Maericans came up; She mentioned that Italian Americans and German Americans were interned too. She was almost pilloried until the professor reluctantly stepped in and asked if she had any proof. The next class she provided the appropriate references.
Again, I can't provide the actual reference until the weekend, but it appears that at least some German americans and Japanese Americans were interned too.


With no references at my fingertips, excluding Fluid Thermal Systems, and Mechanical Engineering Design, the number 8000 German and Italian's were interned. I don't recall how many, if any, were citizens though.

_____________________________

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Post #: 25
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 6:36:51 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I watched part of it.  I thought it was pretty good.  I think the problem is, most of us here know "too much" about WW2.  Just about anything is just going to "history lite", and we'll undoubtably find flaws in the footage that they've spliced together.  Frankly, because we've seen all the war movies and documentaries, we've pretty much seen ALL the WW2 footage there is, and every documentary just recyles what is available into something that resembles the story they're trying to tell.  It's folks like us that are essentially freakishly knowledgeable in WW2, that can spot the footage of a B-17G bombing Europe and know that it's not supposed to be in a sequence of B-17s bombing Rabaul.  There might well -not- be any footage of B-17s over Rabaul, but that's kinda boring watch for the non-freakishly-knowledgable masses if you don't have anything to show when you interview the vet who actually -did- bomb Rabaul in a B-17.
I thought it was a little PC.  But at the same time, I find interesting the "lesser" aspects that some of the documentaries cover.  Frankly, most of us could do our own documentaries of WW2.  we know more about the battles and history than the producers, and probably even the vets who served (from a purely scholastic standpoint of course).  For example, I didn't learn a thing from the Kesserine Pass part or the Air war part.  Interesting yes, but thanks to our prior interest, it's already known to us.  What I -DID- find interesting, was the interviews with the Westernen civilians that were stuck in Manila during the Japanese occupation.  I had wondered what happened to those people.  There were a LOT of westeren businessmen and their families in the area that would be conqured by Japan, and LOT of them weren't able to leave (and they obviously wound up in those camps).  Again, it was interesting, because it WASN'T about the battles, because I was already familiar with everything that was presented.
-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 9/25/2007 6:40:40 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 6:59:10 PM   
Andvari

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		Where does TommyG stand in all this? Again, what was inaccurate and too politically correct?

As to bigotry and racism, we haven't even touched on the fact that the southern U.S. was segregated, as was the Armed Services, and blacks were drafted and asked to free Europe and Asia from oppression. Is this irrelevant (too politically correct) to a discussion in relation to Mobile, Alabama and its part played in defeating the Axis?

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 27
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 7:09:13 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Even German POWs in the south were treated better than the local blacks. I watched part of episode 1, which I taped, and it did touch on the fact that blacks were being asked to free other countries when they themselves weren't quite free in ther own.

From what I have seen of the series, I would not call it PC but it is certainly not the propaganda of Victory at Sea. I love Victory at Sea but it was made in a diffent time period and it shows.

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(in reply to Andvari)
Post #: 28
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 8:15:21 PM   
Charbroiled


Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		I always loved the Victory at Sea "slant" on things:

Talking about US subs sinking cargo ships: "Here is the gallant submarine commander striking at the heart of the Emperial Japanese supply lifeline. Preventing needed resources from supplying the evil war machine."

Talking about U-Boat subs sinking cargo ships: "Here is the cowardly U-Bout commander attacking innocent merchants while hiding beneath the protection of the ocean."

It's been awhile since I watched V@S, so I'm sure the wording isn't right, but the essence was alway the same...what we did was heroic....but if the enemy did the same thing, he was being cowardly or dishonorable.

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 29
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 9/25/2007 8:15:33 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		It is indeed amazing what paranoia can do to a people's sense of right and wrong.

< Message edited by pbear -- 9/25/2007 8:17:27 PM >

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 30
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