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Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 9:37:11 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		w/o the help of the Chinese Army or Soviets, is it possible to launch a successfull campaign against the Japanese Home Islands (against a human oppenant)

in my game the Chinese have been destroyed, while the Soviets are barely holding on under the onslaught of the Japanese Army. At the time it didn't seem like a big deal, as the USN was still intact, and so was the US Army/Marines. But i'm starting to find out as the game goes along (now in Nov, 1944), that US Inf. Divisions are in short supply. So while i've been able to skip along the pacific from island to island w/ ease, and now at the doorsteps of Japan...i'm finding myself desperately short of troops.

By stripping most of my base's of their garrisons i estimate that, i'll only be able to muster no more than 20,000 AV points worth of troops. Meanwhile i look at the Japanese Home Islands, and i estimate some 15,000 AV points worth of troops (not even counting Militia Divisions or any other Divisions set to arrive), well suppied, sitting behind level 9 forts, along with several city hex's.

so should i not even bother with the ultimate prize? Do i get any addition troops from Europe in late 1945 thats not listed on my reinforcement list?

It just amazes me the power of the IJ Army so late in the game, that i can't even attempt to land at the Home Islands, or anywhere on the Asian Mainland.



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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 9:48:55 PM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

w/o the help of the Chinese Army or Soviets, is it possible to launch a successfull campaign against the Japanese Home Islands (against a human oppenant)

in my game the Chinese have been destroyed, while the Soviets are barely holding on under the onslaught of the Japanese Army. At the time it didn't seem like a big deal, as the USN was still intact, and so was the US Army/Marines. But i'm starting to find out as the game goes along (now in Nov, 1944), that US Inf. Divisions are in short supply. So while i've been able to skip along the pacific from island to island w/ ease, and now at the doorsteps of Japan...i'm finding myself desperately short of troops.

By stripping most of my base's of their garrisons i estimate that, i'll only be able to muster no more than 20,000 AV points worth of troops. Meanwhile i look at the Japanese Home Islands, and i estimate some 15,000 AV points worth of troops (not even counting Militia Divisions or any other Divisions set to arrive), well suppied, sitting behind level 9 forts, along with several city hex's.

so should i not even bother with the ultimate prize? Do i get any addition troops from Europe in late 1945 thats not listed on my reinforcement list?

It just amazes me the power of the IJ Army so late in the game, that i can't even attempt to land at the Home Islands, or anywhere on the Asian Mainland.




And here we have one (not the only) reason why the U.S. used the A-BOMB.

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 9:53:40 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		The short answer is no the main HI are immune IMO forts and terrain are to much places like Toyohara are possible.

Now there is one exception to this

If you can find a base and land in three hexes to isolate that one base then it may be possible so stop land reinforcements arriveing.

You don't get ex European forces or the Tiger Force Corps but you do get the Aussie Militia Divs and SEAC Divs

You need to pull all the armour and arty you can find anywhere on the map and be prepared to mass it.

2,000 AV+ of armour and 1,000+ arty tubes in arty regts backed by say 10,000 AV of troops (allowing 2,500 each for two blocking forces) should be enough to secure a base but I have never tried it.

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 10:05:32 PM   
KDonovan


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From: New Jersey
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quote:

And here we have one (not the only) reason why the U.S. used the A-BOMB.


won't need the A-Bomb in my game....B29's are doing the job just fine.

if i were able to use it tactically....then that would be nice...but thats not the case

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 10:10:01 PM   
KDonovan


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From: New Jersey
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quote:

If you can find a base and land in three hexes to isolate that one base then it may be possible so stop land reinforcements arriveing.


thats the biggest problem i see with HI invasion...is the super, undestructable railroad system, thereby allowing the Japanese to react in days to any landing (if the Germans were only so lucky)

Perhaps a pwhex change for modders out there would be to prevent troop movements across the straights in Japan. Surely IRL if the Allies landed on Kyushu, the japanese wouldn't be able to move 20 divisions across the straits from Honshu in a matter of days, as can happen in this game

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 10:12:32 PM   
BLurking


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/24/2005
From: Frisco, TX
Status: offline 		Depends on the map version you're using.

Some of the Home Islands are isolated, and difficult for the Japanese to reinforce due to PP considerations.
The North island was always a worry for me as Japan, but my opponent landed in the South.

Big mistake. It looked hopeful for him for a day or two - but those railways make reinforcement easy...

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 10:15:04 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
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quote:

Depends on the map version you're using.


stock map

quote:

Some of the Home Islands are isolated, and difficult for the Japanese to reinforce due to PP considerations.
The North island was always a worry for me as Japan, but my opponent landed in the South.

Big mistake. It looked hopeful for him for a day or two - but those railways make reinforcement easy..


yep thats what i'm afraid of...and thats exactly how i would play it...if i were Japan

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Post #: 7
RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 11:00:56 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I'm playing AB Map. It's Dec '43.

I've captured half of Okinawa and all of Indo-China. My CW troops with some US and Chinese are now recapturing China (which was not entirely lost) and getting closer and closer to Japan.
For obvious reasons I can't say my next step, but ...

Japanese troops are indeed larger in numbers, but the key - IMHO - is the air force.
Thousands of LB are bombing daily enemy bases and troops. When my forces attack they found the enemy troops unsupplied and heavily disrupted. Even with high forts (9), I can still capture the enemy cities in a approx. a week.

You do need an incredibly huge amount of supplies (despite the largess of Allied supplies I often run short even with hundreds of AKs running supply run from Karachi and SF).

Hence the way I see it is "ground attacks" with 4Es. In a month they reduce any enemy LCU to a useless unit.

I haven't landed in Japan - yet - but I think that's the way.

My two cents

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Post #: 8
RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 11:04:20 PM   
aztez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I'm playing AB Map. It's Dec '43.

I've captured half of Okinawa and all of Indo-China. My CW troops with some US and Chinese are now recapturing China (which was not entirely lost) and getting closer and closer to Japan.
For obvious reasons I can't say my next step, but ...

Japanese troops are indeed larger in numbers, but the key - IMHO - is the air force.
Thousands of LB are bombing daily enemy bases and troops. When my forces attack they found the enemy troops unsupplied and heavily disrupted. Even with high forts (9), I can still capture the enemy cities in a approx. a week.

You do need an incredibly huge amount of supplies (despite the largess of Allied supplies I often run short even with hundreds of AKs running supply run from Karachi and SF).

Hence the way I see it is "ground attacks" with 4Es. In a month they reduce any enemy LCU to a useless unit.

I haven't landed in Japan - yet - but I think that's the way.

My two cents




Hmmm. You might want to take a look my game vs Erstad... it is no picnic for sure... and againts PBEM you are going to be stalled.

I bombed pretty much every city in Home Island into dust and stuck at the beach head... IJA adjusted defense value of 35 000!!! ...so even with huge LBA bomber backup you might find it tough going.

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/25/2007 11:10:46 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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From: Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aztez
and againts PBEM you are going to be stalled.


Sorry, I should have mentioned thta I ONLY play PBEM

My opponent moved a lot of his forces out of Japan (PI, Formosa, China). So maybe that's why I think it may be doable. I left PI and Formosa behind (they look too tough right now) and moved straight for Okinawa.

Meanwhile those islands are isolated and I'm hoping they'll be softer after some 6 months without supplies.

35k AV is clearly a bit too much to overcome

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 1:09:37 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I have only played the AI, which is a marshmallow compared to a real opponent, but I did learn a few things.  When I was laying siege to Osaka, I found the best way to break down the defenses was to send in bombardment task forces with all my available BBs.  I owned all the adjacent hexes, so I had lots of supply and fuel in one of them and set that as the home base.  I was able to bombard every day.  The Japanese had 4000 AV and a couple hundred thousand troops in Osaka (a lot of base forces had piled up there).  The first bombardment missions were getting 60,000 casualties a trip.

Another thing is that if Japan is still on the offensive on the mainland, his best divisions are probably away from home and there is less AV in Japan.  I don't know if it's possible to conquer Japan without the Russians and Chinese, but I'm sure you could make a strong beach head.

Another thing to your advantage is your mobility.  Once you invade, the Japanese may move all their forces up to block you from breaking out of the beach head.  However, you have the ability to pull an Inchon and invade somewhere else in Japan.  With the right move, you could trap the bulk of his forces in Japan in a large pocket and go on to take most of the rest of his cities.

Bill


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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 2:04:25 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		No, I don't play vs human in such later phase yet, but from my exp of vs AI game the problem is, 4E don't fly very often.

As ground attack you need decent weather above BOTH place (i.e airfield and target), and only on morning. A good weather on afternoon is useless. Ground attack only happened in morning.

city hex with 9 fort is hell. Strong as US, it still lacks enough combat engineer.

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Post #: 12
RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 2:09:43 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		Once my BB TF caused over 100,000 casualty, but the defence of city (osaka) didn't seem to suffer too much. I have nearly annihilated computer's support unit, but BB bombardment cannot do much damage to combat infantry.

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Post #: 13
RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 6:54:02 AM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

35k AV is clearly a bit too much to overcome


That's adjusted AV, not AV. Actual AV is just shy of 6K. The rest is terrain, prep points, and HQ multipliers.


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Post #: 14
RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 1:38:07 PM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Just curious as to what version of map and mod if any you guys are playing that you got so far into the game without problems.  thx

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 3:25:25 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I play Andrew Brown Map.

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 6:18:23 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Stock for me I have only really played two mods (both of which I really liked 1. Alikachi's mod and 2. nemos mod)


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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/26/2007 9:30:46 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I would say you probably can't do much against the home islands.  As indicated, if you look at Aztez vs. Erstad, Erstad (Japan) is quickly able to reinforce a beach-head due to the rails in Japan.  Granted, that game is 3-day turns, but even with 1-day turns, if you don't win the city on the first attack, you're probably not going to.  Figure if you're Allies, you've got to come with enough troops to fight all 20 or so divisions of the Home HQ almost all at once.

-F-

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/27/2007 12:03:23 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Just curious as to what version of map and mod if any you guys are playing that you got so far into the game without problems. thx


I play CHS with Andrew Brown's map. There were some bugs in the database, but I had no more than irritations with the engine. The game does do some things that are very unrealistic, but I haven't run into anything that is a game stopper.

Bill

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/27/2007 12:49:12 AM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Stupid question #1 What are AVs?

Stupid question #2 How do I add them up?

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/27/2007 1:46:56 AM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
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From: Near Paris, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Stupid question #1 What are AVs?

Stupid question #2 How do I add them up?


AV = Assault Value point. An infantry squad, a tank, a combat engineer squad are all value 1 AV. So the number of AV gives you the number of squads able to do ground fighting in one given place.

The adjusted AV is not the number of squads, but this number adjusted by experience, leadership, support, supplies, preparation, fortifications, terrain, fatigue, disruption, HQ in range, and shock/deliberate attack orders.

As for invading Japan, I can't see how Japan can defend the whole coast. It is possible to invade relatively "easily" Sakhalin, then Hokkaido (the northern island of Japan) and they have no rail conexion with the main land so any reinforcement should come by sea or air, and will be decimated...

There is also the small two hex island just in the middle of the Interior Sea... It will be a nice place to base your short-range AC....

Then a landing on Japanese coast is always possible... There are many cities that can be invaded by sea and all can't be defended by huge hordes at the same time. You can create diversions, have several transport armadas sailing around Japan, one full of troops and the other empty or full of reserve. Or you can land at several places and concentrate your second wave troops at the least defended city... After all your transport ships will move faster than troops on the railway... And you will also have the advantage of having troops prepared for the battle site while Japan can't know where you will land.

Another condition IMOO for invading Japan is to destroy as much supplies as possible before sending troops. So at least one year of bombing with B-29 and several months with other heavy and medium bombers from closer base will be necessary to destroy Japanese industry and blast AF and ports to destroy supply stocks...

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RE: Invading Japanese Home Islands - 9/27/2007 4:57:51 AM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
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quote:

As for invading Japan, I can't see how Japan can defend the whole coast. It is possible to invade relatively "easily" Sakhalin, then Hokkaido (the northern island of Japan) and they have no rail conexion with the main land so any reinforcement should come by sea or air, and will be decimated...


not entirely true. While Sakhalin is easy pickens...Hokkaido is "connected" to Honshu. I've ran test on stock map, and its possible to reinforce the island by marching troops from Honshu.

quote:

There is also the small two hex island just in the middle of the Interior Sea... It will be a nice place to base your short-range AC....


Already took it......

quote:

Then a landing on Japanese coast is always possible... There are many cities that can be invaded by sea and all can't be defended by huge hordes at the same time. You can create diversions, have several transport armadas sailing around Japan, one full of troops and the other empty or full of reserve. Or you can land at several places and concentrate your second wave troops at the least defended city... After all your transport ships will move faster than troops on the railway... And you will also have the advantage of having troops prepared for the battle site while Japan can't know where you will land.


the problem is, as far as i see it, is the allied inability to roll up the Japanese Army in the Home Islands. While it may be possible to take a couple non-city hex's in Japan....my oppenant will be able to quickly stabalize the front with the rail line, preventing further advance. So now instead of a conquering army, i have a prison camp of 2 million allied troops, stuck in a stalemate on Honshu.

quote:

Another condition IMOO for invading Japan is to destroy as much supplies as possible before sending troops. So at least one year of bombing with B-29 and several months with other heavy and medium bombers from closer base will be necessary to destroy Japanese industry and blast AF and ports to destroy supply stocks...


that was my original plan, but its late 1944 and i'm still about 2-3 months away before i destroy the entire Japanese Industry. Then that leaves me about 10 months of airfield attacks to suck up supply. The question is, with an estimated 2-3 million supply points in the Home Islands (low ball estimate), will i be able to take out all that supply?....from a previous post of mine, it appears thats impossible as japan as such massive reserves of supplies. So that just leaves a direct assault on Japan against well-supplied IJA, with Level 9 forts, with mobility the Germans could only dream of at Normandy.

IMO Japan needs to have all 5 islands unconnected, which would force Japan to spend the necessary PP's to reinforce Kyushu and Hokkadio...but more importantly allow the allies to isolate each island separately for the final assault.



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