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To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 7:50:36 AM

New York Jets

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I've seen some mixed reviews by the players who have posted here. I LOVED Advanced Third Reich and like WWII Grand Strategy.

I like a lot of detail but undertand this game is only moderately detailed. If the game play and flavor are good I can overlook that. Hell, I actually enjoy Guns of August.

Is this game worth my money and time?

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 8:51:01 AM

Texican

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Game mechanics are pretty simple and clean.
Research and Development is pretty simple and clean.
Map is basic and bland.
Graphics are 1990's 2-D flavor.

AI is better than retarded. Basically, Germans will trash Poland, trash France and the Low Countries, maybe trash Denmark, maybe Yugoslavia, then move into Russia.

Very predictable gameplay, and the only Axis units you will see in Africa will be Italian, so don't expect a dynamic and exciting Mediterranean Front.

Bottom Line: AI doesn't appear to have advanced at all in these types of games (European-scale WW2). I played this a few times, was amused, never challenged, and finally bored.

Ask yourself if two weeks of nightly entertainment is worth $40 to $50. Wasn't for me, and in fact, Matrix has been missing the mark for me for quite some time. I'm about to look elsewhere.

(in reply to New York Jets)

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 9:01:22 AM

SMK-at-work

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IMO this game is not comparable to GoA at all - it's a fairly light approach to WW2 that emphasises "playability" and "simplicity" over "simulation".

As a result it is simple and playable, but not a very good simulation!!

So it depends what you're after - if you want a game that has tanks and U-boats and vaguely resembles WW2 then this is fine. If you want a good simulation that gives you a believable "what if" game of WW2 then you won't like it - indeed IMO there is no such game available at the moment.

IPersonally I would like a better simulation....but this is OK vs human opponents.

(in reply to Texican)

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 3:47:29 PM

New York Jets

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Thanks. I'll wait a bit.

Maybe World in Flames will be out before I die.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 4:36:41 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
If you want a good simulation that gives you a believable "what if" game of WW2 then you won't like it - indeed IMO there is no such game available at the moment.

Oh, I have to disagree with that - YMMV of course, but for those who want a more detailed simulation of WWII there are certainly quite a few options. CEAW has a very high fun factor and is at least as accurate as many other WWII grand strategy titles that have come out over the years, but there are certainly other options that focus more on historical play and detail.

IMHO CEAW is a very fun game of WWII, but if you want something more serious, it couldn't be called "hard-core".

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 4:37:22 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
Bottom Line: AI doesn't appear to have advanced at all in these types of games (European-scale WW2). I played this a few times, was amused, never challenged, and finally bored.

What other grand strategy WW2 titles have you played?

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 4:57:00 PM

firepowerjohan

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Complicated and Complex is not the same thing, as can be proven by Chess which is a game easy with simple rules yet extremely complex.

1) Fun and rewarding
2) Realistic
3) Easy going (hence not tedious or complicated system)

These 3 categories do not often go hand in hand, so all games are a compromise of reality.

Our goal is to score high in all 3 categories without being too extreme in any direction, so we are prepared that some hard core players might not like the game as much as if we did it differently. But to the initial question, this game is easy going so should have a wider appeal than most wargames out there at leist that is our goal

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 9/28/2007 6:25:16 PM >

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 5:26:53 PM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
If you want a good simulation that gives you a believable "what if" game of WW2 then you won't like it - indeed IMO there is no such game available at the moment.

Oh, I have to disagree with that - YMMV of course, but for those who want a more detailed simulation of WWII there are certainly quite a few options.

I didn't mention detail - my criteria for a good game is how believable it's version of history is - IMO of course.

Detail and minutiae are not a requirement for believability - and neither is simplicity - both can give believable results if done well. Given equal believability I'd probably tend towards preferring simpler.

quote:

CEAW .......... is at least as accurate as many other WWII grand strategy titles that have come out over the years,

Yep - but it's not a very high bar IMO

quote:

IMHO CEAW is a very fun game of WWII, but if you want something more serious, it couldn't be called "hard-core".

Yep....just like I said

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 5:48:51 PM

Erik Rutins

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SMK,

Which other WWII grand strategy titles have you played in the last few years?

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 6:46:08 PM

Joe D.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
... As a result it is simple and playable, but not a very good simulation!!

So it depends what you're after - if you want a game that has tanks and U-boats and vaguely resembles WW2 then this is fine.� If you want a good simulation that gives you a believable "what if" game of WW2 then you won't like it - indeed IMO there is no such game available at the moment.

IPersonally I would like a better simulation....but this is OK vs human opponents.

Odd coincidence that we are basically having the same issue w/CaW and C(E)aW; SSG stressed that CaW is a recreation, not a simulation, of WW II carrier action, i.e., some players want the IJ order of Battle @ Midway accurate to the last Zero.

Slitherine already said they wanted to create a simple, enjoyable WW II in Europe engine, but grognards like us will always grumble it's never realistic enough.

No win situation.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 7:39:33 PM

Erik Rutins

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The hobby could honestly use a few more games like CEAW and CAW. Games with less severe learning curves and modern interfaces are great tools to appeal to a wider audience and get more folks into wargaming. Sure, some folks jump right in with WITP, but most would run screaming from it if it were their first wargame.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 8:45:47 PM

Barthheart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

...Sure, some folks jump right in with WITP, but most would run screaming from it if it were their first wargame.

I ran screaming from it and it's gotta be my 451st wargame......

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 8:51:53 PM

O.O. Howard

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Greetings Chris Trog, Even though I gave the game a pretty tough review... If I had the choice again to buy it or not... It really was so much fun the first several times I played it... And the multiplayer is so great... Yeah, i WOULD buy it again. and now for a little rant.... I was playing it solo last night for the first time in a few weeks, and i was having fun, so i am not gonna complain. Maybe i am less grognard than most.

But you know, 1/2 the time 'playing' those complicated boardgames in the past was looking up rules and tables, bookkeeping, arguing about rules, setting up, and taking down the game. I suppose that process sets up anticipation, but lets be honest... we dont go back to that stuff anymore(at least i dont) Maybe trying to figure out complicated rules is part of 'strategy'. Wrestling with obscure concepts... yeah when i was young I sorta liked it. I dont have the time or inclination for that now. I want to make decisions and see if my strategy works, and thats what CeaW gives you right away. Two weeks of great fun with CeaW was nothing else but fun decisions every minute. These guys set up a nice game for us. It isnt going to satisfy my every wargame desire, because yeah its too simple to do all that. But you will have fun for hours with no time wasted trying to figure out where the table is for bombing a harbor. And someone else was speaking as though this game gives them reason to not buy matrix games. Heck, because of this game I am looking over all the matrix games. I might buy Guns of August and that civil war game right next to it. And then advanced tactics coming out soon. It seems like all the game designers are right there for you to talk to. Never had that with avalon hill. Lets be honest about the old boardgames(well, usually they werent even on boards, just paper) we bought a great game... learned how to play... and never played but once or twice all the way through with someone. Can I get an amen? Add up all the time you actually PLAYED the game. it doesnt add up to 2 weeks of fun. Buy the game.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 8:55:22 PM

O.O. Howard

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buy the game... of course I mean buy Commander, europe at war

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 10:04:33 PM

SeaMonkey

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I'm sure CEaW is good for an entry level strategic scope game, but it is unrefined at the moment. Good potential if the developers hang in there for awhile, but that remains to be seen.

If you want the epitome of this genre that has been massaged since its introduction in the summer of 2002, then look in on Strategic Command. It is imminently available in its third version, with a multitude of patches/enhancements as its legacy, with a very dedicated developer, Hubert Cater.

Bill Macon(pzgndr) has used its TOAW like editor to produce a version of ATR, A3R, oh heck, Advanced Third Reich, and I was lucky enough to be involved as a tester.

You won't be disappointed.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 10:10:25 PM

Joe D.

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My 1st PC game was EU; I don't remember an in-game tutorial and the manual was worthless, but in general, deep games w/steep earning curves are usu. worth the time it takes to learn them.

Re neophytes: I think they buy their games in stores, then migrate to the forums. The problem is that store PC gameware selections are dwarfed by new video game releases, i.e., Halo et al.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 11:06:30 PM

Texican

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
Bottom Line: AI doesn't appear to have advanced at all in these types of games (European-scale WW2). I played this a few times, was amused, never challenged, and finally bored.

What other grand strategy WW2 titles have you played?

Since the early 1970's, the Avalon Hil games (Third Reich and such), SPI games.

Since the computer age, Strategic Command, Clash of Steel, a couple of carrier games, Age of Empires, Rome: Total War, Forge of Freedom, War in the Pacific, Uncommon Valor. Many other games, likely too numerous to list. Best game I ever played was Panzer General (first one, not the sequels).

Bottom line: I expect a game to either give me one heck of a simulation or at least an engaging challenge. However, the grander the scope of the game, the lesser the challenge is, it seems.

I'm not Rommel-in-an-armchair, but I expect a good fight when I sit down to play a game, and really find it disappointing when the computer A.I. is wimped out and I have to crank up all the artificial settings just to get some kind of respectable opposition going.

I know you guys try, but I did expect more from this recent game, at least in terms of A.I.

Again, A.I. (challenge) is most important to me, regardless of the scale of detail involved.

Interface: Should be simple.
Scale and detail: Can be very simple; need not account for every supply truck in an army, all for the pursuit of realism.
A.I. opponent: Should be ruthless.

< Message edited by Texican -- 9/28/2007 11:11:17 PM >

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/28/2007 11:33:13 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
Interface: Should be simple.
Scale and detail: Can be very simple; need not account for every supply truck in an army, all for the pursuit of realism.
A.I. opponent: Should be ruthless.

Ok, well not every game is going to appeal to every gamer. I think there are a lot of folks for whom CEAW is just right, but I certainly know that some wargamers will want more than it can offer.

If CEAW isn't your cup of tea, I would recommend you try Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided. It matches all of the above criteria, in my experience.

I also agree with the guy who recommended Strategic Command 2, but while that game has a very nice editor, IMHO the AI in GGWAW:AWD is better.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/29/2007 12:42:51 AM

Texican

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Not sure of the AI on that one. Simplistic map, extensive rules, didn't try it long enough to find out.

I do wish (and am probably not alone) that you guys would buy the rights to SSI's Panzer General and remake that game. Allow for a little branching of campaigns, and allow for scenario loss without the entire campaign ending.

Would be AWESOME!

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/29/2007 1:44:11 AM

SeaMonkey

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Grant you GGWaW is a good simulation, an adequate AI, but you have not been exposed to the new SC WaW.

GGWaW lacks the operational features of maneuver and there is no transgression into the tactical world of battle.

SC has both. SC transcends all the levels of combat, albeit abstracted in some cases, but a very good simulation of all 3 levels. That is why I reiterate it represents the epitome of the GS scale currently.

Tell me about a game with its majesty that a turn can be done in minutes? Then again allowing the player to dwell upon the different facets of strategy, wargaming the wargame, modeling the "what ifs", and presenting the player with a multitude of results on reloading.

I won't mention an editor that puts all other wargames to shame, excepting perhaps TOAW.

It doesn't exist. Sorry....yes it does.... SC WaW!

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 9/29/2007 1:47:17 AM >

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/29/2007 2:15:04 AM

Erik Rutins

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SeaMonkey,

I'll take another look at SC2 as well - I see they released an updated demo, whereas my last experience was with the initial release. However, I stand by our games as being excellent as well and I see CEAW and GGWAW:AWD as aimed at different segments of the WW2 grand strategy market. CEAW really has a great mix of accessibility and fun gameplay - I don't think it's at all far-fetched to compare it to the original Panzer General in that sense. As far as AWD's AI and gameplay, I'd say one of its strengths is that it is global, covering the entirety of WW2 and that it plays out very historically compared to many other titles.

I believe there's still an AWD tournament going on, you may want to check some of the AARs there if you're interested.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/29/2007 2:51:53 AM

New York Jets

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Thanks for the input, everybody.

I am an old grognard who has been wargaming since the very early 70's.

I spent endless hours playing Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader and Third Reich/Advanced Third Reich. The same with countless other titles/game genres.

I like detail and options.I LOVE War in the Pacific/WarPlan Orange. I also play Forge of Freedom and For Liberty!. I have played and enjoyed the Europa Universalis line and its knock offs like Victoria, etc.

I LOATHED Axis and Allies. The Gary Grigsby title looks too much like that game.

Ill take a pass on CEaW and wait for World in Flames.

Schwerpunkt Games was developing a Western European Theater game, as well.

We'll see.

< Message edited by Chris Trog -- 9/29/2007 9:56:09 AM >

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/29/2007 3:01:47 AM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Which other WWII grand strategy titles have you played in the last few years?

SC, SC2, HOI, TOAW Europe Ablaze scenario and various part-WW2 large scale scenarios, Hitler's War for Windows

At the moment Guns of August shows how a game can be both simple and immersive IMO - sadly it isn't WW2 and frank is working on other eras so it won't be ported to WW2 for a long time, if ever.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/29/2007 6:30:09 AM

SeaMonkey

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Erik, you're most certainly correct, I own GGWaW and Panther's HttR, excellent games and I love the way Matrix promotes this finite wargaming market. You have my devoted attention.....and business.

But I do recognize developers of unequalled commitment, like Hubert Cater, a true artist in the wargaming niche.

I'm not taking away from other developers, designers, promoters and I see Johan definitely has some talent, it just needs a bit of refinement and I'm sure if he exhibits the devotion of HC then he too will enter the ranks of the Hall of Wargame fame.

What I'm saying to any person that cares for the GS scale is that not sampling the many excellent features that have evolved into the present SC version(WaW), has not given themselves the benefit of the best creation of this genre.

It exists in the realm of complex simplicity, much as GGWaW, but with the nostalgic feel of our old favorite AH and SPI boardgames.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/30/2007 7:21:27 AM

wargamer123

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Okay, I'll add my 2 cents since I helped Beta this game and Inspire our Fine WW2 Strategy Game Lover Johan. I started on-line PBEM with Axis & Allies, for a 14 year old, doable... Gets boring a little though, but anyone who loves the strategic flavor of a game, won't get bored right away. The Computerized Version was a little dwarfed, and tended toward a large amount of gambling... I graduated to Command Headquarters for Modem Live Action, was neat...then onto High Command, 3rd Reich, Strategic Command, HOI, EU2-Victoria, etc... HOI is way too detailed and feels way too much like EU2, but is vaguely interesting! :)

I even tried Panzer General, but I do not like Tactical Wargames and always returned them or threw them aside(personally I prefer RTS or FirstPerson Shooters b4 Tactical Wargaming), about 20-30 Strategic Titles have been released over the years, that were really decent. A lot of titles emphazising Strategic Wargaming have been released that weren't what they promised. There are those that will entertain you for 24-48 hours as well, or those that will burn a hole in your heart, like 3rd Reich or High Command or even Strategic Command. These are some Legends baby :)

As for this game, I originally was a bit skeptical, the map isn't glittery, but interface looks like it follows the Genre, as do the units... I'm certian that it must be entertaining and worth the money. There are so few WW2 Strategic Games out there that are. As for World At War, it sucked! It was as I heard, Axis & Allies without IP. There was no support for it as Gary didn't sell the amount of copies he wanted. So I sold the game on Ebay! Never did I look back! :) Strategic Command 2, HOI Series, and this game are the latest and greatest. As for a World in Flames, it will never come out :)

There are 2 things that did to be done, there needs to be a Demo for this game!!! I fell in love with Strategic Command over the Demo, not over wondering. Noone wants to be curious about what they will get, you just mod it down to something that is a teaser but not a spoiler. I know what a lot of Companies think too, make them buy it if they want to see, or the Screenies are enough. NO, They're not, people want the feel of the Game. Too many Pretty boxes have been sold to us with pretty pictures on the back for us to trust Developers ANYMORE. and I have bought a lot of Matrix titles and been a bit disappointed, but I'm glad they support the Wargaming Industry and I love WW2online :)

Give us a Demo, I'm too broke I just moved or I'd buy this title, I'm that much of a Strategic Wargame Lover, though if I didn't appreciate I'd resell it.. The Demo will sell you a thousand Times MORE :) If the games lives up to the expectation. No Hype, expectation and trust your Customers, they want to see a breast before they buy the Turkey

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 9/30/2007 9:34:38 PM

SeaMonkey

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Did you just hear that Erik? What WG123 said about demos. He is right on and I know there seems to be a policy of Matrix to not provide them, big mistake IMO.

I understand why, I have heard the rationalization before, but that SC demo he refered to was the same one that hooked me for what, like 5 years now.

I have bought numerous copies of SC and distributed to my friends and family and we play constantly. When the expansion of SC2 WaW comes out, I will rebuy SC2 even though I may not need it and give my current copy to someone else.

That's how good it is. The editor is awesome. I fought for a SC editor on lines of Norm's TOAW and Hubert listened, the rest is history.

History in the making.

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 9/30/2007 9:38:04 PM >

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 10/1/2007 5:09:28 AM

New York Jets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

Did you just hear that Erik? What WG123 said about demos. He is right on and I know there seems to be a policy of Matrix to not provide them, big mistake IMO.

...[snip]

Does Matrix have a policy against presenting demo downloads for prospective buyers?

If so, this is not a good thing.

You risk losing more customers in the long run by having them buy games that suck than giving them a demo which may result in them not buying a game.

I mean this. You're better off giving them a preview and them not liking the demo than having them shell out 60 bucks for a game that sucks or they do not like. If they download a demo and don't like the game they will not buy it. If they spend 60 bucks and do not like the game, they may not come back.

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Post #: 27

RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 10/1/2007 5:01:25 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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Well, I'm not going to revisit the whole demo discussion. In short, we have no policy against demos. However, we also have no policy in favor of demos. We do demos on a case by case basis and based on past responses and feedback for demos. If you check, a decent number of our games do have demos available, however this is not one.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 10/1/2007 5:43:36 PM

Joe D.

Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Well, I'm not going to revisit the whole demo discussion. In short, we have no policy against demos. However, we also have no policy in favor of demos. We do demos on a case by case basis and based on past responses and feedback for demos. If you check, a decent number of our games do have demos available, however this is not one ...

To demo, or not to demo; although there's no Matrix policy for or against this, is there a set of criteria for when a demo is done.

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RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... - 10/2/2007 12:11:13 AM

Widell

Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
To demo, or not to demo; although there's no Matrix policy for or against this, is there a set of criteria for when a demo is done.

As Erik said (and sorry for continuing on the demo path, can't seem to keep fingers off the keyboard

) :

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
...case by case basis and based on past responses and feedback for demos.

Having been part of the COTA Beta Team, as well as many of the demo discussions, I know the discussions there and I�d say that most of the time the main driver for demo/no demo is resources and time available at the developer. Remember, this is not PSP or Nintendo volumes of games, but the games still have to carry their development costs. So, if it's relatively simple to make a (good) demo it'll most likely be done, while if it takes much extra effort = noticeable increase in cost even with some additional sales accounted for as a result of having a (good) demo it is more doubtful

A final parameter which is also most likely critical is the posibility to make demo that actually justifiy the game. IMHO a demo of WitP does not make much sense, as the game has almost infinte complexity, and a fair representation of that would be hard to present in a demo. On the other hand, a game like Flashpoint Germany which is both less complex and less complicated is a lot more straightforward in terms of producing a "good" demo = One scenario more or less can represent how the game works/plays

< Message edited by Widell -- 10/2/2007 12:15:05 AM >

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