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A Question about Force Z

 
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A Question about Force Z - 10/5/2007 8:18:55 PM   
starsis1

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		Every book that I ready that mentions Force Z says that there were only 4 destroyers available for Force Z. However, both stock and CHS scenarios list more then 4 destroyers present and ready for action in Singapore at the beginning of the war. Could anyone shed some light on this? Thank you
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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/5/2007 8:24:29 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		This from Wiki (altho somebody I'm sure has more complete/accurate information)

"Though Durban and Stronghold were available, Admiral Philips decided to leave them at Singapore because they were not as fast as the other units. Additionally, Danae, Dragon, Mauritius, Encounter, and Jupiter were also at Singapore, but were under repair and not ready to sail."

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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/5/2007 8:53:01 PM   
starsis1

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you for fast response. So, basically, books are going for the more dramatic effect and are miminmizing potential strength of the British Navy in the Far East

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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/5/2007 9:02:49 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I also believe the Phillips -almost- got away it.  His course changes not only fouled any remote possability of him getting air-cover, but also confused the Japanses.  A sub picked him up, and was later abel to report his position in the morning. 

Also (unlike WitP), 1/2 of the Japanese bombers were carrying bombs.  Top of my head, there were 2 flights, each with 1/2 bombs and 1/2 torps.  The first flight went in, the torps missed, and Repulse got smacked by a bomb.  While certainly unpleasent, she was still able to manuever and make 22(?) kts. 

The second flight was having trouble locating the force, and the flights were under radio silence.  The second flight ended up comeing across a Walrus from PoW, and followed it back to Force Z.  They arrived shortly after the first flight were completing their attacks. When the second flight came in, I think the rudder on Repulse got hit, she was stuck circling. They concentrated on PoW, she went down, and then they went back to Repulse and finished her off. It's the second flight that did in Force Z, but they almost never even made it to the battle. Had they not spotted the patrol from PoW, Phillips would likely to have at least made it back to Sing.

That's top of my head, so the usual disclaimers about it being "mostly" accurate. 

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 10/5/2007 9:07:55 PM >

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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/5/2007 11:49:06 PM   
starsis1

 

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Status: offline 		Thank you again. I have read many accounts of what happened but was not too clear on why they stating that the total # of destoyers was only 4

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Post #: 5
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/6/2007 11:02:49 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

This from Wiki (altho somebody I'm sure has more complete/accurate information)

"Though Durban and Stronghold were available, Admiral Philips decided to leave them at Singapore because they were not as fast as the other units. Additionally, Danae, Dragon, Mauritius, Encounter, and Jupiter were also at Singapore, but were under repair and not ready to sail."


Were the air defences adequate to allow them to stay in Singapore?

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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/6/2007 5:45:26 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I don't think it would have been very safe for Force Z to stay at Singapore in real life.  They probably could have but the Japanese would certainly have gone after them within a few days.

In the game, they wouldn't have chance of doing that.  My bet is that they would be attacked on the 8th or 9th and that would be that!

I rarely play as the Allies but against Moses, I immediately pulled every fighting ship in the DEI back to Java and re-organized them into three STF.  Each was given a sector NW, N, and NE of Java for combat operations.  This is what the ABDA Command planned in real life.  It worked pretty well for me.  I divided PoW and Repulse to provide strong firepower to two of the three TF and it worked rather nicely.  Each TF had several cruisers and about 6=8 DD.  Gave them some punch and I used them for hit-and-run.

It is too bad the Phillips was lost.  He came so close to getting away.  The Japanese were overtly afraid of his Capital Ships.  Would have been fun to see what they would have done had he gotten away...



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Post #: 7
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/6/2007 8:55:04 PM   
Howard Mitchell


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From ‘War with Japan’, Volume 1, written by the British Ministry of Defence’s Naval Historical Branch:

‘At the time the ‘D’ class cruisers on the station were fully employed on escort duties besides being to slow for the proposed raid; and the Exeter, which on the outbreak of war had been ordered up from the Bay of Bengal to Singapore, was unable to arrive before the 10th. Consequently Admiral Phillips’ force comprised no more than the his flagship, the Prince of Wales, with the Repulse and a screen consisting of the Electra, Express, Vampire of the Royal Australian Navy (built 1917-1918) and local defence destroyer Tenedos. The destroyers Jupiter and Encounter were in dockyard hands’.

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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 5:31:07 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I was reading through this and wondered what people thought if Force Z's CV escort had not been damaged.  That was to have been Victorious--right?  Would she have simply gone down too?  Would this addition have allowed for the survival of Phillips?




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Post #: 9
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 6:05:29 AM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Since none of the Brit carriers had many fighters, I believe the flat-top would have added to the metal in Davey Jones' locker.
Land based bombers have the advantage of being on unsinkable bases, but carriers must be respectful of the range of land-based bombers, and as pointed out by Eric Bergerud,(FIRE IN THE SKY), the Brits were not aware of the range of the Japanese planes that day till it was too late.

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RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 6:22:35 AM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		IIRC, the carrier's name began with "I" but I don't know which one it was (Illustrious or Indomitable).

The IJN LBA that sank Force Z had their very best day of the war that day and was never able to approach a repeat performance. They pretty much had ideal circumstances to conduct their attacks. Even a few low performance (Fulmars?) fighters might well have negatively affected their attacks.

(In WitP though whatever carrier it was would be sunk or heavily damaged along with the rest of Force Z).

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Post #: 11
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 6:24:51 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		It was Indomitable.

"She sailed to the West Indies in November 1941 for her maiden voyage. While there, Indomitable ran aground on a coral reef near Jamaica, though she returned to service soon afterwards. This short delay proved fatal for British plans for Singapore: it had been planned that Indomitable was to join HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse in the port of Singapore as part of a deterrent force, Force Orange, against Japanese aggression in the Far East."
source Wiki


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Post #: 12
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 6:47:40 PM   
Skyros


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From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		I wonder what additional escorts she would have brought along with her?

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Post #: 13
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 10:32:59 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		I think it's possible there were less damage or damage to minor units. But at time defense against airplanes was not very well established i doubt that British could put 10 Fulmars in the air in time.

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Post #: 14
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/8/2007 11:39:45 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I would wager that she would have brought at least a DD Division of 4 with her.  Might a 'Dido' AA Cruiser have been attached as well? 

Doesn't the British CV usually carry 25 or so Fighters?



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Post #: 15
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/9/2007 5:53:05 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I would wager that she would have brought at least a DD Division of 4 with her.  Might a 'Dido' AA Cruiser have been attached as well? 

Doesn't the British CV usually carry 25 or so Fighters?




At the time, Indomitable carried 9 Sea Hurricanes and 12 Fulmars. It's hard to say how much help she would have been to Force Z. RN fighter direction was poor, and the Fulmars would have a lot of trouble intercepting Japanese bombers, since they had little or no speed advantage.

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Post #: 16
RE: A Question about Force Z - 10/9/2007 6:10:59 PM   
MineSweeper


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From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		After reading this, I looked at the history of the HMS Electra and she was the one that rescued the 3 survivors from the HMS Hood after being sunk by the Bismarck....and helped rescued the survivors from HMS Repulse.....

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