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A question for old grognards - 10/2/2007 11:47:48 PM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		I was thinking back to the days of the monster boardgames and I wondered if any of us ever finished any of them? I played mine solo, and by the time I finished setting up Fire in the East or Pacific War (the campaign game) I longed for a quick Ambush scenario or maybe a few turns of Third Reich. I loved seeing the 4' X 8' maps and the stacks and stacks of counters set up, but the actual playing of the monsters was a chore at times. Of course, I'd give anything for a computer FITE, and we have WITP, but I think I'd like to have my cake (the physical pleasure of looking at the giant maps) and eat it too (a computer program to handle the calculations). The WITP planning map is as close as I'll get, I think. The first company to complete a division-level WWII game with hexes and a decent a/i will make a tidy profit from it. I really don't like area movement.

It was probably my fault for not joining a club (I lived in NYC and there must have been a grognard club or two around), but 16 hour days at work did not allow for much getting out and about. I'm just curious whether anyone finished FITE, or Terrible Swift Sword, Campaign for North Africa, etc., either solo or in team play.

Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/2/2007 11:58:57 PM   
Yogi the Great


Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		The idea was to set them up, admire them and promise that some day you would finish a game. 

I remember "The longest Day" and War and Peace" (which I have) from Avalon Hill  Almost finished War & Peace solitare once.

By the way,  just to be nice, just use gorgnard and leave the OLD out of it.  We have feelings you know.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 2:07:09 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		I remember one of WW1 being setup at the local wargames club for over a year.  Turns were actually done and progress made, but even with 2 meetings per week in dedicated premises it didn't get finished!!

Other games I recall having started and never finished include DNO (& Unentschieden), and Korsun Pocket by Simulations Canada(?).

I'm pretty sure theose weer the only 3 I ever tried.

(in reply to Yogi the Great)
Post #: 3
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 2:32:19 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		I started AH's The Longest Day,Third Reich and the 1st ASL campaign (can't remember its name), VG's Vietnam, Victory Games' Pacific War, Enemy at the Gates and DAK

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"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
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Post #: 4
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 3:18:53 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

I started AH's The Longest Day,Third Reich and the 1st ASL campaign (can't remember its name), VG's Vietnam, Victory Games' Pacific War, Enemy at the Gates and DAK

You never played VG's "The Civil War"? Cripes, you missed the best one of the bunch.

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Post #: 5
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 4:40:43 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs


quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

I started AH's The Longest Day,Third Reich and the 1st ASL campaign (can't remember its name), VG's Vietnam, Victory Games' Pacific War, Enemy at the Gates and DAK

You never played VG's "The Civil War"? Cripes, you missed the best one of the bunch.


I own it, never got round to playing it...

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



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Post #: 6
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 6:08:53 AM   
105mm Howitzer


Posts: 447
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Hmmm, finished Highway to the Reich ( once) and Global War, plus Third Reich. I was more into "medium" length games myself. ( Squad Leader/COI, Blitzkrieg ( anyone remember that one?)
That being said, I am still looking for a copy of SPI's Global War. ( probably to decorate my shelf)


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Post #: 7
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 6:25:44 AM   
Bloodybucket28th


Posts: 130
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I finished a multiplayer game of World in Flames.  Biggest game I ever participated in that made it to conclusion.

I'll second VG's Civil War as being excellent, and say that Ageod's ACW computer game is the closest thing to an electronic version I've found.

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Post #: 8
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 6:26:48 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		A World at War , and yes I completed it with opponents.

But I lean towards tactical (Combat Commander Europe) more then grand strategy in board games.

To much time and space is required, funny thing is I thought I would have all the time in the world to play out WWII on a monster scale as I grew older, but I’ll be GD if I have less time now then when I was 18.

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Post #: 9
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 8:33:29 AM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Yogi,

My apologies -- I meant to write "seasoned" or "veteran." The O word slipped in there when I realized I'm coming up on 30 years of wargaming. I picked up Tactics II in October of '78 for six bucks and played it till the counters were all dog-eared.

VG's Civil War was excellent! I played that one many, many times. I wanted to create a computer version with Aide de Camp but never finished it. I agree that AACW is a worthy successor. The Longest Day was good, but I didn't like the pre-printed set-up areas.

Blitzkrieg was a good one, too.

One of the biggest problems with the monsters was that non-gamers never seemed to understand that 3,000 unit counters were where they were FOR A REASON! I lived in a boarding house and had half of my tiny room devoted to Fire in the East. One day when I was at work the cleaning lady picked up the maps and slid all of the counters into the box while she cleaned around the map table! When I got home I felt like I had been punched in the gut.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 10
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 2:56:29 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		As an OLD grog I indeed played many a mega-game to completion.

The list includes:

Fire in the East / Scorched earth: Played several 6 player games to completion.

Wacht am Rhein: Played many, many 2 and 4 player games to completion

The Longest Day: Even changed residences in the middle of a game and still completed it against my brother. We copied the deployment maps, whited out the unit set up and used the blanks to record the location of every unit. I moved and we set it back up from where we left off and played it to the end.

A couple of people have mentioned Third Reich, but I never really considered it a mega-game. I played Third Reich probably more than all other games combined. My group of buddies and I played every version to death and even playtested Adanced Third Reich for 2.5 years and got our names published in the design credits. We also played the heck out of every other grand strategy game: ETO/PTO Advanced ETO/PTO, WWII, Krieg and Totaler Krieg.

Unfortunately, I never played Highway to the Reich or The Campaign for North Africa.

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Post #: 11
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 3:03:52 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats

Yogi,

My apologies -- I meant to write "seasoned" or "veteran." The O word slipped in there when I realized I'm coming up on 30 years of wargaming. I picked up Tactics II in October of '78 for six bucks and played it till the counters were all dog-eared.

VG's Civil War was excellent! I played that one many, many times. I wanted to create a computer version with Aide de Camp but never finished it. I agree that AACW is a worthy successor. The Longest Day was good, but I didn't like the pre-printed set-up areas.

Blitzkrieg was a good one, too.

One of the biggest problems with the monsters was that non-gamers never seemed to understand that 3,000 unit counters were where they were FOR A REASON! I lived in a boarding house and had half of my tiny room devoted to Fire in the East. One day when I was at work the cleaning lady picked up the maps and slid all of the counters into the box while she cleaned around the map table! When I got home I felt like I had been punched in the gut.



As for dog-eared countermixes......I completely wore out two countermixes of the AH classic Russian Campaign. My current copy is the third one in my collection.

The Longest Day had one of the BEST countermixes ever created for a wargame. The German army unit symbology was absolutely awesome. The game mechanics system was the same as used in the Air Assault on Crete/ Malta game and we didn't like the fact that the airborne battalions didn't break down into companies and scatter the way they did in the Crete/Malta game so we made breakdown counters and used the scatter table from Crete/Malta. It made for a more realistic scattering, leaving a literal carpet of airborne companies across the Cotentin peninsula.

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Post #: 12
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 5:16:25 PM   
Yogi the Great


Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		I owned most all Avalon Hill games, a number of VG games, a number of SPI and a spattering of several lesser companies.  Started with the original AH Gettysburg (with the squares)

Games I played the Most (in no particular order)
     Battle of the Bulge (AH)
     Gettysburg (AH) hex version
     Afrika Corp (AH)
     Russian Campaign (AH)
     Third Reich (AH)
     Anzio (AH)
     Waterloo (AH)
     1776 (AH)
     Blitzkrieg (AH)
     Squad Leader (AH)
     Civil War (VG)  yes a  great game as metioned
     Several others probably could/should be mentioned

As I have mentioned a number of times, I would love to see these games faithfully recreated for the PC.



< Message edited by Yogi the Great -- 10/3/2007 5:19:36 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 5:50:24 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

I owned most all Avalon Hill games, a number of VG games, a number of SPI and a spattering of several lesser companies.  Started with the original AH Gettysburg (with the squares)

Games I played the Most (in no particular order)
     Battle of the Bulge (AH)
     Gettysburg (AH) hex version
     Afrika Corp (AH)
     Russian Campaign (AH)
     Third Reich (AH)
     Anzio (AH)
     Waterloo (AH)
     1776 (AH)
     Blitzkrieg (AH)
     Squad Leader (AH)
     Civil War (VG)  yes a  great game as metioned
     Several others probably could/should be mentioned

As I have mentioned a number of times, I would love to see these games faithfully recreated for the PC.





We would seem to be contemporaries.

My game collection pretty much mimics yours.

My first wargame (not counting Battleship, Stratego, Broadsides and Hit the Beach) was Kriegspiel, folowed by Blitzkrieg and then the two games I really, really cut my wargaming teeth on Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader.

After my two best wargame buddies moved away (we played religiously every Friday or Saturday night for 15 years) and computer games came of age, I drifted away from boardgaming for almost 10 years. Recently I heard from a group of guys from a nearby city we used to play FitE/SE with (those six player games I mentioned above) wondering if I was still interested in boardgaming. I've started playing the Gamers Operational Combat System game of Tunisia with the three of them on Thursday nights. It's been fun getting back to face to face gaming again.

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Post #: 14
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/3/2007 11:31:32 PM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		By the mid-80's I had acquired all of the games listed above, with the exception of Anzio. Yaquinto had two superb games: The Thin Red Line (Waterloo) and Pickett's Charge. SPI released Operation SeaLion in '79 (I think) and it was one that I played to death. I always wanted to subscribe to their game/magazine issues, but money was short in those days !

Panzer Leader, Panzer Blitz and then the Squad Leader series -- but I never mastered ASL. The Ambush series was good, as well as Sniper by SPI.

The Longest Day felt like a professional wargame, I think largely because of the German unit symbology. I did complete the Mortain secnario but never the campaign game. I still have the manual, but none of the other components.

My compliments to HansBolter for finishing the monsters. It must have been pretty satisfying. And the take-down/setup of TLD makes you a master logistician! I think that feat is comparable to Patton's 90 degree turn in the Ardennes. I agree about Third Reich -- it was complex enough without the space and time requirements of the monsters.

Did anyone else play Tobruk? I am reminded of it when I play Steel Panthers or CMAK.

Thanks for all the responses!

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Post #: 15
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 2:57:17 AM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		I played AH's 3rd Reich countless times as a Kid. dozens of other games too by AH, SPI, S&T etc. all the way back to 1970. AH's Tobruk? you betcha.

In the late '80's I wrote a player-aid program for Longest Day that automatically calculated the para-drop results and managed air power, supply, rail, combat results, etc. I also computerized AH's Knights of the Air including entering all the aircraft data. The graphics would display your target aircraft getting larger/smaller and up/down - side to side, show your throttle settings and altitude guages, and calculate your nose-aspect with respect to the target and combat results.

It's all garbage-ware now.

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Post #: 16
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 3:25:12 AM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline 		..Terrible Swift Sword and War between the States to completion in approx 16 months each, and War in the East multiple player, one weekend Friday lunch to Monday lunch with speed Monopoly (full rules start to finish)whilst they did their turn ...

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Post #: 17
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 6:41:17 AM   
Skipjack


Posts: 408
Joined: 7/4/2006
From: Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline 		It sounds like we all have similar gaming history - I played 3rd Reich so much during the 80's we had multiple copies, all "dog-eared' to varying degrees. Russian Campaign, Waterloo, Afrika Corps also got their wear and tear. We discovered VG's Civil War late but found it to be one of the best.

To address the original issue, I bought VG's Pacific War (3000+ counters), never played it. Victory in the Pacific remains my favorite board game for that theatre. Until I bought Gary Grisby's Pacific War, which pretty much ended board gaming for me (and ultimately led me to this website).

Yogi, I see you are from Wisconsin - did you ever get to a GenCon convention in Milwaukee? Those were days - a veritable Disneyland of wargaming

Here are some dog-eared counters - just for fun




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Skipjack -- 10/4/2007 7:23:59 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 1:39:37 PM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		VG's Pacific War seemed -- if my memory serves me well -- like a board version of WITP, at least in its complexity. I didn't have the space for all of the charts and the unit handling sheets, nor the time to plot out moves for both sides. GG's Pacific War "converted" me too -- that was the point at which I shelved the board games for good. And I had been getting into the AH Civil War campaign games by that point, but it was impossible to set up all the maps and counters and keep everything stable.

I wonder if a lot of us old-timers want the tactile pleasure of the counters and maps along with the convenience of the computer. On the other hand, I don't ever want to try to move stacks of twenty counters around each other again. I guess what I need to do is hook up the laptop to a LCD projector and beam my games onto the living room wall.

Skipjack -- thanks for the pics! Takes me back to 1981. I was playing 3R and VITP at that time, and my buddy and I worked on a super-VITP with nearly every ship afloat represented. Figuring out the correct counter ratings was fun (and only a true grognard would say that!).

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Post #: 19
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 4:16:35 PM   
ezzler

 

Posts: 863
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Played to completion :

VG Civil War {Jackson and Lyon both died at 2* and A S Johnston went down in his first battle}

VG Vietnam until around 1969 when as the Usa I bought the troops home in a kind of Jimmy Carter way.

WIF. Many times .. last one I remember the USSR frontline cracked wide open and all the dieppes and Anzios did nothing to help.

Fortress Europa AH. Hung in the balance a lot longer than it should have .. a good often overlooked normandy game.

Federation and Empire { the game didn't even come ith enough counters to play it.. you had to draft in all your sfb counters}. I don't remember anything except wishing someone would invent a computer to do all the paperwork}

ASL . The operation Huskey monster game.
On the first day there is about 30 mapboards and only some 20 counters each side. takes all day just to march to the guns, but  really did show the value of soft vehicles which are normally just 'roadblocks to be' in ASL

Midway GDW. Every ship and plane and pre plotted movement. Japs won , even with the erratta left in for the super 5 hex midway radar. { Sunk the Yamato though}

And one I really did like was freedom in the galaxy or something similar. A star wars universe copy, which I believe DV games has over on his site.

+ warrior knights, Sealion Europa version , Kingmaker , Russian campaign , Leopard 11 the big scenarion , Harpoon South Atlantic Falklands game { which is terrific} Blood Royale , Trafalger {played on wooden ships iron men}
and 3rd reich of course.

Never completed but set up:
Kursk {sooo boring..}
Patton in flames { to old, not enough time }
The longest day
The stalingrad module for ASL
victory in the pacific
eagle against the sun
guns of august





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Post #: 20
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 5:11:22 PM   
Yogi the Great


Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skipjack

Yogi, I see you are from Wisconsin - did you ever get to a GenCon convention in Milwaukee? Those were days - a veritable Disneyland of wargaming



Unfortunately, I date back even further then that. GenCon was started by the D&D company in Lake Geneva - hence the name GenCon. I actually attended GenCon when it was in just a small room in Lake Geneva with a few tables set up for gamers to play. It next moved to UW Parkside, continued to grow, moved to Milwaukee a few years after that and then got too big even for the Milwaukee facility and moved to Indy.

I was a "wargamer" and not a D & D player by any means. But GenCon had plenty of wargamers and the convention grew to cover all strategy games. Still there was certainly a large fantasy aspect that remained perhaps the base support of the event and does so to this day. I think GenCon could probably be recognized as the original start of war/strategy game conventions. It holds an important spot in history of promoting the hobby.

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Post #: 21
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/4/2007 5:45:48 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		AH's Tobruk? You betcha....it's in my collection.

VG's Pacific War.....like the others I bought it, perused it much and never got anyone to give it a try...not exactly a solitaire game.

AH's Africa Corps....of course...it almost always came down to a 2-1 attack on Tobruk, but was so fast playing my best wargame buddy and I once pulled an allnighter playing 4 full games that night switching sides back and forth each time.

AH's Victory in the Pacific and War at Sea...again played the heck out of em...along with sevaral variants published in the General.

AH's "bonus game" of Malta included in the Crete game was another fun filled and fast paced game you could play several timers ina night if your daring drop strategy went up in flames you could quickly set it up again for another go. (COTA's Malta scenario brought back so many fond memories of this game).


As for Third Reich, me and my two close buddies who gamed every Friday or Saturday night for 15 years straight constituted the St. Petersburg, Florida playtest "cell" for Advanced TR. One colleague was a librarian at the local community college and had access to email (at a time when most of didn't have it at home). He handled all of the correspondence with the lead designer, Bruce Harper (in Vancouver) and as a result got credit as a Designer, while our other buddy and I got credit as Playtesters. We playested potential rules changes for 2.5 years and after another year's wait the revised game was finally published. Many of the designers and playtesters attended AvalonCon that year for a ATR tournament. Me and our buddy who got credit as a designer played against Bruce Harper and another one of the designers. That one time trip to a national level convention was a highlight of my gaming "career".

The 80's really was the Golden Age of boardwargaming!

P.S. I missed the reference to Fortress Europa....we called it "Fortropa" for short and definitely enjoyed many a game session with that one.


< Message edited by HansBolter -- 10/4/2007 11:19:40 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 2:48:20 AM   
Bloodybucket28th


Posts: 130
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I prefered SPI games back in the day, and drifted towards AH games towards the end of my golden age of board wargaming.  I think it was a combination of SPI going under and the realization that the less complex titles might actually see some table time.

What's the most recent boardgame that the seasoned grogs here have aquired?  I'm interested to see if anybody still has the Monstergame bug. 

I sent for "Target: Arnhem", a MultiMan Publishing mini freebie a few months back, and before that my last aquisition was "Deluxe Bitter Woods." 

The last game I actually played was "Memoir '44", and that's been almost a year ago.

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Post #: 23
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 3:32:23 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

AH's Tobruk? You betcha....it's in my collection.



Was that the one that had indivual tank and 88 counters. With the detailed Hit/Damage charts. If so, I had that game had to play it solitaire.


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Post #: 24
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 4:12:47 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I played out many games, sometimes with multiple opponents.  Off the top of my "old" head, I recall:

Global War (SPI)
Third Reich (several completed games)
Panzer Leader
Panzer Blitz???
Russian Campaign
France 1940
War at Sea
War in the Pacific
Luftwaffe
D-Day
Arab-Isreali Wars
World War 3
Squad Leader and ASL (many games)


Anyway...very fond memories.  In a way much better games than PC games.  It was all about the coming together of friends and hanging out on a lazy Saturday or evening.  SOmetimes we played an entire long weekend like Labor Day, and ate Twinkies and drank CocaCola.  Ahhh, those were the days indeed.

< Message edited by geozero -- 10/6/2007 4:16:53 AM >

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JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

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Post #: 25
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 4:13:34 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		sorry double post

< Message edited by geozero -- 10/6/2007 4:16:37 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 6:46:40 AM   
donkuchi19


Posts: 1062
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		I never got through a game of Pacific War. I did finish a game of Empires in Arms once playing solo. That was when I was in high school though and I could keep it set up in my bedroom for over a month. (My bedroom was the space over a two car garage with an extended six foot walkway. It was huge and the game was off on one side out of the way). In the last 12 years, kids have managed to ruin any game I have set up for longer than a weekend.

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Post #: 27
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 6:56:01 AM   
Plodder


Posts: 1001
Joined: 7/28/2003
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

I prefered SPI games back in the day, and drifted towards AH games towards the end of my golden age of board wargaming. I think it was a combination of SPI going under and the realization that the less complex titles might actually see some table time.

What's the most recent boardgame that the seasoned grogs here have aquired? I'm interested to see if anybody still has the Monstergame bug.

I sent for "Target: Arnhem", a MultiMan Publishing mini freebie a few months back, and before that my last aquisition was "Deluxe Bitter Woods."

The last game I actually played was "Memoir '44", and that's been almost a year ago.


My most recent boardgame acquisition was about 2 years ago and that wasDAK II by The Gamers/MMP. Haven't had a chance to play it, just drool over the huge map. I recently downloaded the DAKII module for Vassal so I'll probably play it through that.

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Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."

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Post #: 28
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 7:23:13 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I remember my roomates opening a window and the window destroying my Pacwar! Boardgames where great fun for what they where..

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Post #: 29
RE: A question for old grognards - 10/6/2007 9:25:47 AM   
MrBoats

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Between wind, kids, cats, mothers, accidental bumps and cleaning ladies there were just too many obstacles in the way of playing the monster games. Not to mention time and space considerations. They were great in theory but suited primarily for team play in a warehouse.

My last board game was one of AH's Civil War series -- I think Stonewall in the Valley. Beautiful maps, low counter density and a good system, but a big "footprint." I wish I still had the maps to mount and hang on the wall.

"Lee versus Grant" was one of the best Civil War titles ever released. It wasn't very big but it had a great system and lots of replay value.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 30
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