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RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/20/2007 10:52:58 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Attached is a screenshot of the sixth attack results. Note that the last of the artillery north of the Utah Beach target has been dis-entrenched, as hoped. The other two targets have only been weakened. Again, only one combat round was expended. 30% of the turn remains.




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Post #: 31
Seventh Attack Phase - 8/20/2007 10:55:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Attached is a screenshot of the exploitation of the sixth attack results. The defense northwest of Utah Beach must be attacked once more. This is my last fresh infantry regiment there. This time, I’m using some of the longer ranged naval units to bombard one of its remaining support stacks. At this point, the units in the Omaha Beach hex have finally caught up with the combat round and could be used in attacks. Unfortunately, they no longer have enough MPs to do so. So I just dug them in. Fortunately, the Canadian armored brigade (boy has it been useful!) is just ready to march on. I’ve set it up to clear the defense south west of Omaha Beach. Meanwhile, an attack has been set up against the mechanized regiment next to Caen. If it can be cleared, we’ll have a real breach of the German lines to exploit. Again, from the info panel, we see that no late units have been used.




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Post #: 32
RE: Seventh Attack Phase - 8/20/2007 10:57:20 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Attached is a screenshot of the seventh attack results. Note that the defense northwest of Utah has barely held out while one more of its support stacks has been knocked out of support. Elsewhere, there is now a four-hex wide breach in the German defenses west of Caen. That’s a hole even I can exploit! Note that only one combat round was expended again. There is 20% of the turn remaining. Note that that means the turn will automatically end after the next combat execution. We now have to include defensive preparations in our next moves.




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Post #: 33
Eighth Attack Phase - 8/20/2007 10:59:38 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Attached is a screenshot of the exploitation of the seventh attack results. What’s left of the defense northwest of Utah Beach gets a maximum effort attack in hopes that, not only will it destroy the last defender, but will advance significant forces into the hex, since we won’t have the opportunity to exploit any success this time. One more of its support stacks has been targeted for a bombardment. Since no further rounds can be scheduled, both the assault and the bombardment have been set up using “Ignore Losses”. This is the one exception I mentioned at the start. It gives the possibility of two rounds of combat taking place in both cases. Elsewhere, Commonwealth units have advanced as far into the huge hole in the German lines as they can. There they have been dug in, awaiting any German counterattack. From the info panel, note that no late units have been used.




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Post #: 34
RE: Eighth Attack Phase - 8/20/2007 11:02:26 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Attached is a screenshot of the eighth attack results, shown from the German player turn. Note that the assault on the last defender northwest of Utah Beach was successful and two units advanced into the hex. The bombardment failed to dis-entrench its target artillery stack. That’s the end of the Allied player-turn. Now the German player gets to react. The final loss totals were 20 for the Allies and 22 for the Germans.

Clearly, I’ve established a strong lodgment, especially in the Omaha/Gold/Juno/Sword area. Utah is still in some danger, since it lost a lot of strength getting itself established, and there is a lot of German strength still in the area. The defense next to Caen may be badly over-stacked and vulnerable to German artillery counterattack, but the Germans don’t have much artillery available just yet. Even if they can pull some of that off, the Allies have lots of replacements. The important thing is that the reinforcement hexes are safe, and there is a huge gap in the German defenses that they will have a very hard time closing. In fact, that gap will tend to help the situation in Utah since much of the German strength in that area that otherwise might have been used against it will have to be re-deployed to set up a defense in the gap. The gap is so serious, that the German player will be hard pressed to find any margin for counterattack purposes.

And note that even though I got lucky with the initial attack on Omaha Beach, I never got to exploit it any better than if it had held out for several rounds. I really don’t think the final end result was anything out of the ordinary. Something similar should be achievable just about every time.

Note that I managed to get a total of eight combat phases*. The max possible is nine. These results show what good round management gives you. And, what I did here can be applied to almost any other scenario. Make use of what you’ve learned here and you’ll be able to play with anyone.

*and 31 combats.

Happy operational wargaming!




Edit: Continue following the AAR in this follow-up thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1726673

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< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 5/22/2021 6:34:59 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Eighth Attack Phase - 8/21/2007 4:21:33 AM   
PaladinSix

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline 		Now that is a quality AAR! Thanks Curtis for taking the time to explain some of the thought process behind your moves. Even on a first reading I can see some things that I was doing wrong in my own game. A closer examination and some experimentation will certainly help me even more.

PaladinSix

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Post #: 36
RE: Eighth Attack Phase - 8/21/2007 10:59:06 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		That was GREAT!! Thanks so much for putting it all together. Are these pages from your upcoming book release 'The Operational Art of TOAW' ???

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 37
RE: Initial Situation - 8/23/2007 4:04:27 AM   
B/snafu


Posts: 112
Joined: 6/14/2007
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Thanks for this ARR. Good nuts & bolts for us newbies.

Another point learned for me---my understanding with art & HQ's was their movement allowances affected the turn whether in tac, entrenched, or direct---didn't realize leaving them in tac could save you from the movement risk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
.........Note that one artillery unit was moved into support range. I’ve left it on “Tactical Reserve” for indirect support. If I added it directly to the attack it could cost me a combat round because it’s been moved. Similarly, the Chemical Mortar unit has been put into the same mode. It’s only one-hex ranged, so that’s the only way it can provide support without suffering losses........./quote]


< Message edited by B/snafu -- 8/23/2007 4:05:52 AM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/25/2007 11:08:05 PM   
erwinbona

 

Posts: 19
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Status: offline 		How can you see the planed combats and the turn used in the botton of the interface?

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Post #: 39
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/25/2007 11:42:00 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erwinbona

How can you see the planed combats and the turn used in the botton of the interface?

By resting the mouse cursor over the bolted panel area (where the star circlet is) on the right.

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Post #: 40
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/26/2007 4:24:42 PM   
erwinbona

 

Posts: 19
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Status: offline 		Wow, so simple. Thanks.

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Post #: 41
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/29/2007 9:27:13 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		hi curtis
nice AAR......very good stuff here. i have a few questions......

1] if you put ships on ignore losses, when they fire in support, i thought that you would use up 3 attack phases??
[ 2 phases for limit losses and 3 pahases for ignore losses etc? ]

2] this question goes with the one above......you use limit losses to bombard targets and and ignore losses to support a target.....why? can you explain the whole meal deal for me please?

3] you said you move a HQ unit into a hex 1st to help with traffic control......does that lower the move cost into and out of a hex if you have large stacks of troops moving in and thru the hex?? can you explain that please?

thanks

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Post #: 42
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/29/2007 6:11:19 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

hi curtis
nice AAR......very good stuff here. i have a few questions......

1] if you put ships on ignore losses, when they fire in support, i thought that you would use up 3 attack phases??
[ 2 phases for limit losses and 3 pahases for ignore losses etc? ]


That only applies to bombardments (artillery firing alone without a ground assault).

quote:

2] this question goes with the one above......you use limit losses to bombard targets and and ignore losses to support a target.....why? can you explain the whole meal deal for me please?


I guess it really doesn't matter what loss setting you have ship units set to if they are just supporting a ground assault. I could have used minimize losses instead of ignore losses. But putting them into ignore losses is a habit I've gotten into with artillery units however, since those units could find themselves facing a ground assault if the turn ended. I just prefer my defending units to be in ignore losses.

quote:

3] you said you move a HQ unit into a hex 1st to help with traffic control......does that lower the move cost into and out of a hex if you have large stacks of troops moving in and thru the hex?? can you explain that please?


They have MP squads in them (in the specific case of France 1944 - other scenarios may vary). Those squads reduce the movement cost of traffic congestion.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 43
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/29/2007 8:11:36 PM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline 		is it nececary to have RED density on some hexes??
I never do that, your opponent can inflict bigger losses to you.

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Post #: 44
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/30/2007 4:17:29 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

is it nececary to have RED density on some hexes??
I never do that, your opponent can inflict bigger losses to you.


That's true as a general rule, but there are exceptions. In this specific case, ownership of the beach hexes (where all Allied reinforcements arrive) trumps all other considerations. They must be made secure. If that means the Allies will take higher than average losses, so be it. They have plenty of replacements, whereas they have very little ground to spare. This is one of those rare cases where holding ground is more important than force preservation.

On the other hand, I'll admit that it's possible I overstacked a bit around Caen. I'm not claiming this was a perfect move, just that it was good enough.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 8/30/2007 4:19:54 AM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/30/2007 1:40:15 PM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		thanks for the info Curtis....
lets say all our troops are on land for the following questions and were not using any ships.....

if you have your arty in tactical reserve to support an attack, is there not a chance the arty will move up a hex if you win the combat???? would it not be better to put the arty in mobile?

by using your habit of putting arty in ignore losses when the they SUPPORT ground combat, and your ground units in minimize losses, is that not making the arty fire longer and thus using up more of the turn?

do the HQ units lower the movement cost of traffic congestion in CFNA do you know? [ those german units are damn large! :) ]

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Post #: 46
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 8/30/2007 6:57:22 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

thanks for the info Curtis....
lets say all our troops are on land for the following questions and were not using any ships.....

if you have your arty in tactical reserve to support an attack, is there not a chance the arty will move up a hex if you win the combat???? would it not be better to put the arty in mobile?


Absolutely not. Tactical reserve does not cause attackers to advance after combat. Rather it causes defenders to advance into adjacent hexes that have been attacked. So the consequences of Allied artillery being in Tactical Reserve could not be felt until the German player's turn. And if you put the artillery in mobile deployment it wouldn't provide any support. This turn is no time to be cautious.

Now, if the turn ends early and your artillery is left in tactical deployment, then there will be a chance of it being forced to advance into the arms of the Germans (NOTE: that's going to be changed in the next patch!). But, for now, that's a risk worth taking in this situtation.

quote:

by using your habit of putting arty in ignore losses when the they SUPPORT ground combat, and your ground units in minimize losses, is that not making the arty fire longer and thus using up more of the turn?


Again, no. If the artillery is supporting a ground assault instead of bombarding by itself, its loss tolerance has virtually no effect. I just prefer ignore losses in that case for no really good reason. Use whatever tolerance you want. And note that I was using limit losses for the ground units, not minimize losses.

quote:

do the HQ units lower the movement cost of traffic congestion in CFNA do you know? [ those german units are damn large! :) ]


Yes, if they are real HQs (the ones with the HQ icons). The regimental/brigade "HQs" do not. You can tell by looking in the Unit Report of the HQ. If it has MP squads it will have a "Traffic Control" % ability listed in the Special Abilities panel.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 8/30/2007 7:03:14 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 9/29/2007 8:59:24 PM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Curtis
are you debarked at sea in the examples? does this give a combat bonus? or should i say do you have to pay the amphib assault penalty?

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Post #: 48
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 9/29/2007 9:45:55 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

Curtis
are you debarked at sea in the examples? does this give a combat bonus? or should i say do you have to pay the amphib assault penalty?


No. The invasion forces are in road hexes. (They're on deep water hexes, but still on roads). I don't think there is any assault penalty in this instance, but I can't say for sure since I've never run rigourous tests on it.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 49
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 10/2/2007 6:31:57 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
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Status: offline 		Curtis,

Thanks for this thread and the one on Waterloo 1815. 

I've played the AI, so I don't get any feedback or tips.  I felt I never understood any of the subtleties.  Your threads address the subtleties and teach what to look for and why.  It never occurred to me you could get this much action out each round. 

There's nothing too simple for me.  I can see other people like this game, and it's been around a long time, but I've had trouble enjoying it.  I'm hoping that by perusing a few AARs I'll see what I've been missing. 

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 50
RE: Initial Situation - 10/10/2007 7:35:10 AM   
B/snafu


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Obviously by your examples it is true--just wanting to be clear--even moving an arty unit till it only has say 1 movement point--placing it in tac reserve for indirect support will not affect the overall round% used---is this the same for an entrenched arty at 0 mp if only in indirect support?

_____________________________

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Post #: 51
RE: Initial Situation - 10/10/2007 8:46:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: B/snafu


Obviously by your examples it is true--just wanting to be clear--even moving an arty unit till it only has say 1 movement point--placing it in tac reserve for indirect support will not affect the overall round% used---is this the same for an entrenched arty at 0 mp if only in indirect support?


That's correct.

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Post #: 52
RE: Initial Situation - 10/11/2007 4:15:09 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Note that the naval units in the ranger’s hex were used elsewhere instead of here. Using naval units to attack an adjacent target is a good way to get your naval units sunk.


Would that still be a problem if they were just left to be on general support? (ie given no specific hex to attack so they support everything within range)

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Post #: 53
RE: Initial Situation - 10/11/2007 7:38:47 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Note that the naval units in the ranger’s hex were used elsewhere instead of here. Using naval units to attack an adjacent target is a good way to get your naval units sunk.


Would that still be a problem if they were just left to be on general support? (ie given no specific hex to attack so they support everything within range)


It would not be a problem.

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Post #: 54
RE: Initial Situation - 10/11/2007 9:11:16 PM   
B/snafu


Posts: 112
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From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: B/snafu


Obviously by your examples it is true--just wanting to be clear--even moving an arty unit till it only has say 1 movement point--placing it in tac reserve for indirect support will not affect the overall round% used---is this the same for an entrenched arty at 0 mp if only in indirect support?


That's correct.


Thank you for clearing that up for me. In past games I had been leaving them in mobile status when I moved them up behind the front line w/ only a few mp's left so as not to eat up the turn. Didn't get their indirect support for last attcks & ran risk of not having them for indirect support during defensive turn.


_____________________________

"How can you buy eggs in Malta for seven cents apiece and sell them at a profit in Pianosa for five cents?? "

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Post #: 55
RE: Second Attack Phase - 11/19/2007 4:53:19 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The artillery units that were still at sea and used in the Utah Beach attack are now embarked – and have thus lost all remaining MPs. Thus, using them in that fashion was a mistake. Oh well.


This is actually pretty good for the scenario. I doubt the field artillery was effective so early in the battle, even if we assume that it's not still aboard boats.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 56
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 11/19/2007 5:18:23 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I don't think there is any assault penalty in this instance, but I can't say for sure since I've never run rigourous tests on it.


I believe the penalty for attacking from deep water hexes- strengths multiplied by 0.7 - applies no matter how you're doing it.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 57
RE: Second Attack Phase - 11/19/2007 5:57:42 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
This is actually pretty good for the scenario. I doubt the field artillery was effective so early in the battle, even if we assume that it's not still aboard boats.


Note that the first turn covers 3.5 days. It would be on land. TOAW requires the abstraction of it firing from sea, to function as support and not as an assault. And it abstracts an overstacking situation.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 58
RE: Sixth Attack Phase - 11/19/2007 5:58:21 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
I believe the penalty for attacking from deep water hexes- strengths multiplied by 0.7 - applies no matter how you're doing it.


If so, that's a good thing. I just don't know for sure.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 59
RE: Second Attack Phase - 11/19/2007 6:05:47 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Note that the first turn covers 3.5 days. It would be on land.


Sure, but it might not yet be set up and able to fire. The gunners and the guns might not be in the same place- and the shells and the transport may be somewhere else again. Amphibious invasions can get messy.

Even if we assume that by the end of the turn the artillery is all good to go, that's still the end of the turn. Having them blazing away happily on full support from the word go is absurd- and we've nicely established that this isn't possible in TOAW.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 60
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