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Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/10/2007 8:48:18 PM   
jimair1

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 2/3/2006
Status: offline 		My Sherman tankers may face court martials if this ISN'T a bug.

Playing Kucher's Ragtag Circus with version 2.0. Sherman tanks op fire is set to fire at hard targets only at long range. Soft and other targets are turned off. A german unit fires at them doing no damage. The Shermans expend all op fire at an empty halftrack. My opponent seeing this brings in his Panthers and lays waste to the defenseless Shermans.

Note that unit settings are identical for all of the Sherman platoons including the HQ platoon.

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RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/10/2007 10:01:21 PM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		If I'm not mistaken, halftracks are hard targets, so your Shermans followed their orders.

There are rules of engagement about using halftracks to draw off opportunity fire.  That doesn't mean your opponent violated those rules.  There's still a lot of flexibility to use halftracks to draw off opportunity fire and to expose your units.

I think I've read where some players turn opportunity fire off because it lacks dependability or, in your example, discernment.  I've had occasions where I wanted my units to use opportunity fire and they withheld fire. 

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Post #: 2
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/10/2007 10:56:29 PM   
serg3d

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/23/2003
Status: offline 		Some halftracks are hard and some are soft targets. AA halftracks are soft.

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Post #: 3
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/10/2007 11:47:52 PM   
1925frank

 

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Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Serg3d.  That's correct.  Not all halftracks are hard. 

That raises another question.  I've heard too that your units will generally follow your settings, but they will occasionally disobey those settings, not as a bug, but just as a random factor inbedded into the program.  Can anyone enlighten me whether this is true?

Also, now that I've thought about it, if you set your ranges in a certain way, the computer won't respect them.  If your globals are shorter than you individual settings, the global shorter settings will control.  Jimair1's problem would not appear to be that particular one though, because my understanding is his individual settings were set at not to fire at soft targets.

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Post #: 4
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 12:54:39 AM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

That raises another question.  I've heard too that your units will generally follow your settings, but they will occasionally disobey those settings, not as a bug, but just as a random factor inbedded into the program.  Can anyone enlighten me whether this is true?



No, it is not true.

Jason Petho




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Post #: 5
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 12:58:34 AM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimair1

My Sherman tankers may face court martials if this ISN'T a bug.

Playing Kucher's Ragtag Circus with version 2.0. Sherman tanks op fire is set to fire at hard targets only at long range. Soft and other targets are turned off. A german unit fires at them doing no damage. The Shermans expend all op fire at an empty halftrack. My opponent seeing this brings in his Panthers and lays waste to the defenseless Shermans.

Note that unit settings are identical for all of the Sherman platoons including the HQ platoon.


Unfortunately, since you mentioned "empty halftracks", one can assume they did carry infantry at one time, making them armoured. Meaning, they fall in the armour class, which means your OP-FIRE did what it was supposed to do.

There are tactical ways to get around someone "abusing" their halftracks, but the easiest thing to do would be to set up some Rules of Engagements. Here is a classic set:


http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/online/page5.htm

Jason Petho




< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 10/11/2007 1:01:03 AM >

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RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 1:47:49 AM   
1925frank

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

That raises another question.  I've heard too that your units will generally follow your settings, but they will occasionally disobey those settings, not as a bug, but just as a random factor inbedded into the program.  Can anyone enlighten me whether this is true?



No, it is not true.

Jason Petho



That ends that mystery. Thank you, Jason.

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Post #: 7
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 2:04:21 AM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

That ends that mystery. Thank you, Jason.



Anytime!

Jason Petho


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Post #: 8
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 6:06:23 PM   
1925frank

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

There are tactical ways to get around someone "abusing" their halftracks, but the easiest thing to do would be to set up some Rules of Engagements. Here is a classic set:

http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/online/page5.htm



Big Dawg has a recent thread on the Blitz that fleshes out the subject of halftrack usage well.

I thought you could remove units to avoid destruction, but the Blitz says you shouldn't to prevent a victory. In my mind, the only reason you'd ever remove a unit is to prevent your opponent from getting points, that is, from winning, so I interpret the Blitz to say, effectively, you should never remove a unit (unless it's on an exit hex).

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Post #: 9
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 6:35:06 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Big Dawg has a recent thread on the Blitz that fleshes out the subject of halftrack usage well.

I thought you could remove units to avoid destruction, but the Blitz says you shouldn't to prevent a victory. In my mind, the only reason you'd ever remove a unit is to prevent your opponent from getting points, that is, from winning, so I interpret the Blitz to say, effectively, you should never remove a unit (unless it's on an exit hex).



It depends on the scenario. The victory conditions could be set that to achieve a major victory the destruction of most or all of the opponents units is required. This is especially true of smaller scenarios.

For larger scenarios, it is common for players to remove their non-combat forces (trucks, wagons, etc), but combat forces must remain on the map.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 10
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 7:09:02 PM   
1925frank

 

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Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks, Jason.

As a new player, I wouldn't have a good feel for when removal would be acceptable, so the best practice, I guess, would be to check with the opponent when the game starts.

For new players like me, Big Dawg's thread discusses the use of passenger halftracks behind your front lines, in the front lines, and behind the enemy's front lines.  You're given apparently total discretion behind your front lines.  It also discusses how you can use passenger halftracks anyway you want provided the infantry component of the passenger halftrack is within a certain distance; however, there was some disagreement about how close the infantry units had to be.  I don't know if the thread exhausted the subject, but I found it very helpful. 

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Post #: 11
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 7:25:00 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Thanks, Jason.

As a new player, I wouldn't have a good feel for when removal would be acceptable, so the best practice, I guess, would be to check with the opponent when the game starts.

For new players like me, Big Dawg's thread discusses the use of passenger halftracks behind your front lines, in the front lines, and behind the enemy's front lines.  You're given apparently total discretion behind your front lines.  It also discusses how you can use passenger halftracks anyway you want provided the infantry component of the passenger halftrack is within a certain distance; however, there was some disagreement about how close the infantry units had to be.  I don't know if the thread exhausted the subject, but I found it very helpful. 


Ah, the good ol' halftrack debate. It comes around every six months or so and is always lively. There is a lot that is open to interpretation and is best to ensure both you and your opponent are on the same page when it comes to rules of engagements.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 12
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 7:40:45 PM   
vadersson


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From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		If halftracks are so dangerous, why not increase the VP value to reflect thier actual value? In theory if a halftrack is worth more VP, people will not use them in dangerous duties nearly as much. It seems it would better reflect the war time belief that halftracks were too valuable to expose to enemy fire while at the same time allowing people to use them as they see fit and suffer the VP loses in return. Just a thought.

Thanks,
Duncan


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Post #: 13
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 7:51:53 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vadersson

If halftracks are so dangerous, why not increase the VP value to reflect thier actual value? In theory if a halftrack is worth more VP, people will not use them in dangerous duties nearly as much. It seems it would better reflect the war time belief that halftracks were too valuable to expose to enemy fire while at the same time allowing people to use them as they see fit and suffer the VP loses in return. Just a thought.

Thanks,
Duncan



There is a new set of halftracks available in the organization editor that do just that. The stock halftracks were left alone as to not imbalance existing scenarios.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 14
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 8:08:39 PM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		Great!  I think the best way to handle the problem is to design the game so the player has no incentive to use the unit in an atypical way.  The player effectively polices himself out of self-interest.  That's the surest way to enforce compliance. 

The honor code is nice but not always honored.

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Post #: 15
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 9:11:24 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
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From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Been following this thread.
I've just played Tarawa and there one gets Amtracs (LVT2).
No I didn't really know what to do with them at first.
1 unload then leave beaches
2 follow units inland as mobile mg nests
3 spotter for naval Arty
4 transport units around the island after most areas safe

I used all 4 points but felt a little uneasy on point 3. Felt it was a bit gamey/unfair
as I never would do that with halftracks or trucks.

What do you think? Open for critic and advice lads.

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Post #: 16
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 9:13:29 PM   
jimair1

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 2/3/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Jason.  

Color me stupid! 
Well I have always known they were "armoured" halftracks, I had always considered them "soft"  A burst from the halftrack MG never even scratches the paint on my tanks.  There was no mailcious intent of my opponent.   There was one platoon of empty halftracks in an industrial building that I just laid smoke on.   They had been there for two turns since delivering an MG42 platoon.   My intent was to set up an ambush for approaching German tanks.   Instead my Shermans returned op fire and only destroyed 4 of the 6 units there (due to the smoke and cover).

Next time I waste the HT's before setting up my ambush!

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Post #: 17
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 11:00:12 PM   
1925frank

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

Been following this thread.
I've just played Tarawa and there one gets Amtracs (LVT2).
No I didn't really know what to do with them at first.
1 unload then leave beaches
2 follow units inland as mobile mg nests
3 spotter for naval Arty
4 transport units around the island after most areas safe

I used all 4 points but felt a little uneasy on point 3. Felt it was a bit gamey/unfair
as I never would do that with halftracks or trucks.

What do you think? Open for critic and advice lads.


I would think they fall in the category of being behind your front lines, so you would be free to use them as you see fit, even if they were spotting beyond the front lines. But wouldn't the armored passenger carriers and trucks be the same? You're drawing a distinction. For game purposes, I'm not sure there is one.

I'm not the expert here. I'm learning.

Wouldn't British Universal Carriers be considered amored personnel carriers? Weren't they used as recon?

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Post #: 18
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/11/2007 11:16:15 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		As spotter units I meant they they were already unloaded. But as you said they were behind my lines, but still had bad feeling about using them that way. they couldn't use their mg's as they were too far away any they were not prtecting my flanks as I was attacking the Island.

They were being fired upon, being empty they seemed to resist enemy fire more thah being loaded.
And I didn't mention I used them to distract enemy fire from my fighting units.
Now that might be classed as dishonourable warfare tactics.

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Post #: 19
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 12:05:14 AM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		I'm not a military expert, but isn't there always some poor smuck who's asked to run across the plaza to draw fire so all the other soldiers, who are hiding, can hopefully spot the sniper and kill the sniper?

You're doing essentially that, but my understanding is you're allowed to do that, as long as you're behind your own lines or within three to five hexes of the infantry they were transporting. 

I guess the objective is to ensure the halftracks and trucks don't go off on their own combat missions, which would apparently be an unorthadox use of them. 

On the other hand, they may be co-opted into an attack in conjunction with other fighting units, even if it is only to draw fire.  Again, I'm not a military expert, but apparently that usage isn't so far-fetched. 

So if I used an empty truck or halftrack for recon by death so the accompanying infantry could later cross an open area without anyone shooting at them (or if in a city, so they could get close enough to shoot without being shot at), would anyone complain?  My understanding is that's acceptable.

As the game wears on though, I would imagine I and my opponent would run out of trucks and halftracks.




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Post #: 20
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 12:22:00 AM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

So if I used an empty truck or halftrack for recon by death so the accompanying infantry could later cross an open area without anyone shooting at them (or if in a city, so they could get close enough to shoot without being shot at), would anyone complain?  My understanding is that's acceptable.



Depends on your Rules of Engagement. I, for one, would have a problem with that.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 21
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 1:20:33 AM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks, Jason.  That's the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

The bottom line appears to be to clear up these issues before playing, because those tactics would be acceptable under some of the ROE I've mentioned. 

There appear to be too many variables to go over ahead of time. 

It'd be nice to have a checklist with options, like the game options for command control and armored facing.  For example: 

Recon by death (trucks) if infanty within 3 hexes ___ Yes  ___ No (Check one). 

Recon by death (passenger halftracks) if infantry with 3 hexes ___ Yes ___ No (Check one)

Trucks drawing opportunity fire along front lines but behind front lines ___ Yes ___ No (Check one)

Passenger halftracks drawing opportunity fire along front lines but behind front lins ___ Yes ___ No (Check one)

The Blitz cite identified areas of disagreement but didn't propose any particular rules regarding halftracks. 

The Blitz rule regarding trucks would appear to suggest they should never be used in combat for any reason, but the rule then focuses exclusively on blocking lines of sight.

I've had jeeps used as recon by death.  Is that acceptable?  Jeeps are recon units, aren't they?  As a practical matter, jeeps are different than trucks.  If their SP is 2, they are even better than a 6 SP truck platoon, because the recon by death will cost less.

I haven't seen a comprehensive list of possible issues. 








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Post #: 22
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 1:40:48 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
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From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		I realize that we've moved away from the actual thread starter, but as frank frankly pointed out, the feedback we get from Veteran players, help us ,to understand the ROE. In fact I get to understand the game play a little better esp when I read AAR's what a player did and why.

I realize that my use of the LVT2 were out of line in some ways and would have cheesed off some players had I used some of the tactics in a 1on1.
But as pointed out it would be good to have a checklist, so that complcations do not arise.


By the way Jason how are you getting along with the game/strategy manual. You did want to create didn't you???

Mathew

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Post #: 23
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 2:27:00 AM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

I realize that we've moved away from the actual thread starter, but as frank frankly pointed out, the feedback we get from Veteran players, help us ,to understand the ROE. In fact I get to understand the game play a little better esp when I read AAR's what a player did and why.


When I have some time, I'll whip up another "video" tutorial or two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil
By the way Jason how are you getting along with the game/strategy manual. You did want to create didn't you???


It was moved lower on the priority list for the moment with all that is going on behind the scenes. There will be more info available soon, I hope.

Not only that, my personal life has become rather busy as of late, especially with the home business. Tis all good, but a tight deadline!

Jason Petho



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Post #: 24
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 2:35:01 AM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I haven't seen a comprehensive list of possible issues. 




Instead of making an endless list, one could make a few generalized statements:

Unarmed Vehicles (Soft Targets) - tracked or wheeled - are not allowed to recce or to be used to soak OP Fire

Armed Vehicles (Soft Targets) - tracked or wheeled - allowed to recce (if inherent infantry type unit is assigned to armed vehicle, the infantry unit must 'tag along').

Armoured Vehicles - tracked or wheeled - allowed to recce.

Armoured APC's - tracked or wheeled - allowed to recce (if inherent infantry type unit is assigned to APC, the infantry unit must 'tag along').

Etc

Jason Petho






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Post #: 25
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 3:03:12 AM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		So the jeep could recce by death.  (Jeeps are armed, aren't they?)  That was my impression.

And the recce by death with the armored passenger halftrack was okay, provided its infantry was nearby.

But a truck could not recce by death.  That was apparently what Jason found objectionable in my earlier example.

I agree with British Exil that I learn far more (and far quicker) over the forum than by trial and error.  And I'd like to avoid irking an opponent unintentionally.  Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond.

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Post #: 26
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 3:38:14 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

So the jeep could recce by death.  (Jeeps are armed, aren't they?)  That was my impression.



There are two types of jeeps in the game; those that are armed, those that are not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
And the recce by death with the armored passenger halftrack was okay, provided its infantry was nearby.


My rules of engagement mean that the halftrack must be in the same hex with the infantry if conducting an assault. If not, the infantry fights dismounted with the halftracks a hex or two behind the parent infantry, ready to reload the infantry and carry on the advance. Empty halftracks roaming the battlefield are a no-no. APC's are just that, glorified battle-taxi's, as we're still a few years away from 'proper' Infantry Fighting Vehicles.



quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
But a truck could not recce by death.  That was apparently what Jason found objectionable in my earlier example.


Rather.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
I agree with British Exil that I learn far more (and far quicker) over the forum than by trial and error.  And I'd like to avoid irking an opponent unintentionally.  Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond.


No problem, anytime!

Jason Petho


< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 10/12/2007 3:44:57 AM >

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RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 6:02:37 AM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		Regarding Jeeps, I checked, and there are Jeep Scouts, which are armed, and there are Willys Jeeps, which are not and which are apparently used to tow other units.  Jeep Scouts can recon by death then, but Willys Jeeps could not.

Regarding the APCs, that's precisely the type of clarification I was looking for.  Thank you.  So the use of an APC to soak up opportunity fire before its infantry entered the hex would be a no-no, but if it soaked up opportunity fire while sitting one or two hexes behind the infantry, that'd be okay.

If the APC and its infantry entered a hex together, and the APC took the opportunity fire, I'm thinking that would be okay too, although I'm not sure because the qualification is usually limited to advancing together in an assault, and in this example, they are not advancing as part of an assault.

So British Exil's LVT2s are okay for recon because they are armed, and, I would guess, okay for soaking up opporunity fire because they were hanging back from what I understood.  I think British Exil was playing against the AI.  I don't know if LVT2s are hard or soft, but I suspect a human opponent might adjust the opporunity fire so as not to flre at them by restricting the opportunity fire range downwards.  If the LVT2s were sent forward for recon, that purpose would be legit, but the LVT2 would probably start soaking  up opportunity fire, which would probably make the forward observor role a no-no.

For veterans, this might all seem like second nature, but for me, it's loaded with all sorts of uncertainties and questions.

Jason, I hope everything goes well with the home business.  Thanks again.

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Post #: 28
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 6:39:59 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Regarding Jeeps, I checked, and there are Jeep Scouts, which are armed, and there are Willys Jeeps, which are not and which are apparently used to tow other units.  Jeep Scouts can recon by death then, but Willys Jeeps could not.


That is correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Regarding the APCs, that's precisely the type of clarification I was looking for.  Thank you.  So the use of an APC to soak up opportunity fire before its infantry entered the hex would be a no-no, but if it soaked up opportunity fire while sitting one or two hexes behind the infantry, that'd be okay.


That is also correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
If the APC and its infantry entered a hex together, and the APC took the opportunity fire, I'm thinking that would be okay too, although I'm not sure because the qualification is usually limited to advancing together in an assault, and in this example, they are not advancing as part of an assault.


The infantry should advance alone. If you want armour accompanying them, send in a tank platoon or armoured car platoon.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
So British Exil's LVT2s are okay for recon because they are armed, and, I would guess, okay for soaking up opporunity fire because they were hanging back from what I understood.  I think British Exil was playing against the AI.  I don't know if LVT2s are hard or soft, but I suspect a human opponent might adjust the opporunity fire so as not to flre at them by restricting the opportunity fire range downwards.  If the LVT2s were sent forward for recon, that purpose would be legit, but the LVT2 would probably start soaking  up opportunity fire, which would probably make the forward observor role a no-no.


Technically, they are battle-taxi's. You can recce with them as long as the infantry they came ashore with are nearby or riding along.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
For veterans, this might all seem like second nature, but for me, it's loaded with all sorts of uncertainties and questions.


It comes with experience and years of playing. Everyone starts out using whatever they can do fill roles the weapon systems were not designed for, and then get frustrated when they do not win, especially when playing a human opponent. Over time, one realizes that trying to replicate historical uses and tactics tends to bring the best results and an overly pleasing experience, game play wise.

Of course, any questions you have, I would be happy to answer. I do not know it all, but certainly always have an opinion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Jason, I hope everything goes well with the home business.  Thanks again.


So far, so good. Creating a set of maps for a Napoleon book, always a pleasure to learn and be creative!

Take care and good luck
Jason Petho


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(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 29
RE: Units disobey op fire order bug - 10/12/2007 6:00:45 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Jason, I hope everything goes well with the home business.  Thanks again.


So far, so good. Creating a set of maps for a Napoleon book, always a pleasure to learn and be creative!

Take care and good luck
Jason Petho



Let's see. From Portugal to Moscow. From Normandy to Egypt. Isn't that kind of like asking one poor fellow to row the Titanic with two oars?

Nevertheless, it sounds like something you enjoy.

I think Lincoln said, "For people who like that sort of thing, that's just the sort of thing those people would like."

Thanks again. You've been tremendously helpful.

Thanks too to Jimair1 for letting us pirate his thread without complaining. Three cheers for Jimair1!

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 30
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