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Air support - 10/15/2007 12:49:45 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Just being crushed by the Red Armys tanks.Fighting with Germany's elite Großdeutschland.LCG Großdeutschland at Kursk. Now I had 8 air attacks supplied to me. I used 3 on Anti Tank guns and Arty. 1 on Tanks the other 4 I wanted to use on tanks too. Clicked on the hex, but my Luftwaffe never appeared. Maybe the Führer had other plans for them, or I never had enough spare parts for my planes.

Or was it that I clicked on the hex where the tanks were but they moved hex, some were out of LOS?

Or did I wait too long before I used them? 14 turns used last 4 on turn 10-14!

Did I do something wrong assigning the Luftwaffe the wrong units?

Please feel free to enlighten me.

Thanks in advance.

Mathew
Post #: 1
RE: Air support - 10/15/2007 3:57:36 AM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I think the air unit has only a 65 percent chance of arriving on any particular turn.  If you lose a line of sight to the attacked unit, the air unit might be recalled.  As long as the target appears, I think you're just waiting for good roll of the dice.  I don't think it makes any difference if the target moves as long as there is a target somewhere close by, but I don't know for sure.  I usually want to make sure I've a fairly secure line of sight to the target before assigning an air unit, because they can be devastating.  If you wait too late in the game, you may lose the air attack waiting for a good roll.

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 2
RE: Air support - 10/15/2007 10:53:03 AM   
serg3d

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/23/2003
Status: offline 		BTW I don't like how aviation is handled in the game.
Aviation should not be able to kill tanks with such efficiency. It's not realistic. Rudel claims are ridiculous. (Having 24 37mm AT shells and kill tank per mission mean he could only shot 12 volleys per tank) All real research shown that the only harm WWII aircraft can do to tank, beside direct hit with bomb or rocket, is to scare the crew. Aircrafts could only fight tank efficiently by destroying their supply.
I remember I've read that losses of tanks due to aviation in WWII was 4-5% of all losses.

< Message edited by serg3d -- 10/15/2007 11:10:46 AM >

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 3
RE: Air support - 10/15/2007 7:12:40 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline
quote:

If you wait too late in the game, you may lose the air attack waiting for a good roll.


I think I waited too long. Was near end of the scenario.

quote:

All real research shown that the only harm WWII aircraft can do to tank, beside direct hit with bomb or rocket, is to scare the crew. Aircrafts could only fight tank efficiently by destroying their supply.

I realize that a hex full of tanks 3 with 3sp. Will not be completely destroyed by my Luftwaffe. Maybe they lose 1 tank and the unit with remaining 2sp retreats or better all retreat. Then, in my eyes, the mission was a success. Keeping their tanks out of firing range is just good as them not being there in the first place.

Tis an evil thing seeing 9-12 tanks each with 3sp, defence of 8-14, and you only have a hand full of stugs 1-2sp a few pzr grenadiere and engineers to thwart that attack.
I have made to many mistakes on the other maps resulting in very high losses. Esp when Iwan brings in his armour near the end of a scenario, and blasts my men at point blank range when they have less sp than at the start.

Where is Göring when I need him most!!! No spotter planes revealing the hidden enemy. I am getting ulcers with all this stress. And the letters I have to write to the mothers and wives. War is not fun.

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 4
RE: Air support - 10/16/2007 1:11:37 AM   
Frido1207

 

Posts: 456
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Lower Saxony, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil
Where is Göring when I need him most!!!

Oops, the "Reichsjägermeister" is probably hunting or stealing artworks across Europe.
I guess you´re fighting on the wrong side...

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 5
RE: Air support - 10/16/2007 9:36:32 AM   
thomas6

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline 		Serg3d, you say "Aviation should not be able to kill tanks with such efficiency".

Is that really the case? I've played an awful lot of CS games, am pretty sure I know how aviation works best, but I've very rarely seen it take out more than about 1 tank per scenario -- even when it actually hits what has been targeted.

I agree that "I don't like how aviation is handled in the game": but it's usually that it has failed to make any impact whatsoever on the swarms of T34s coming at me...

(in reply to Frido1207)
Post #: 6
RE: Air support - 10/16/2007 10:32:15 AM   
serg3d

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thomas6
I've played an awful lot of CS games, am pretty sure I know how aviation works best, but I've very rarely seen it take out more than about 1 tank per scenario -- even when it actually hits what has been targeted.

You should consider not kill per scenario, but kill per attack on tank. In my experience on average aviation take out 1-3 strength point per attack on tank platoon. Still too much IMO.

About no impact at T-34 - that is historically correct. Aviation didn't have impact even on light tanks like T-70.
Aviation should attack HQ to stop tanks.
That is related to this thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1588089
If HQ had bigger impact on the fire efficiency you would be able make it like it was in reality - destroy/suppress HQ and T-34, KV become lesser threat.

< Message edited by serg3d -- 10/16/2007 10:40:36 AM >

(in reply to thomas6)
Post #: 7
RE: Air support - 10/17/2007 2:33:26 AM   
michammer

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d

You should consider not kill per scenario, but kill per attack on tank. In my experience on average aviation take out 1-3 strength point per attack on tank platoon. Still too much IMO.


I have never seen a kill ratio that high in any scenario I have played.

(in reply to serg3d)
Post #: 8
RE: Air support - 10/17/2007 3:51:38 PM   
cpdeyoung


Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		I have to agree with michammer.  I pretty much ignore air power.  If it happens it happens, but I much prefer artillery.  I think the air power simulation is too abstract.  It may be correct for this level, but it is no fun.  It seems a random factor.  I think it could be remodeled to be more fun.

Chuck

(in reply to michammer)
Post #: 9
RE: Air support - 10/17/2007 5:20:55 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I can't say whether the game is accurate historically.  The planes add another element of chance.  I like having that option. 

I don't believe there is a graphic for when AA fire drives off an air attack or shoots down a plane, which would be nice.  It'd also be nice to get points for shooting down enemy aircraft. 

In any event, regarding the damage planes can inflict, here are my two cents worth: 

There are a lot of variables.  It depends on the planes, the tanks, and the terrain.

I've had German planes wipe out an entire French tank platoon caught out in the open in a May 1940 scenario.  I think the Stukas packed a fairly big punch (I'm guessing, but perhaps 18), and the defensive value of the French tanks was probably around 6.  If German engineers engaged those same French tanks, they'd do similar damage. 

I've had Italian planes swoop across the desert skies and do absolutely no damage to British tanks in, I believe, November 1940 scenarios.  When I checked the combat results display, it was clear I was wasting my time using those particular Italian planes on British tanks.  I think the Italian planes' attack value was only 3, and the British had Matildas or something else with a defense of 10. 

I couldn't give you any feedback regarding the Russian Front, which was the primary focus of the discussion.  I think I've read that there were some German pilots who became extaordinarily good at knocking out tanks.  I don't know if they were the exception.  I believe German tanks were extraordinarily reluctant to move during dayling in France in 1944 because of allied planes. 

(in reply to cpdeyoung)
Post #: 10
RE: Air support - 10/17/2007 8:14:25 PM   
vadersson


Posts: 139
Joined: 7/12/2006
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		If you check the west front directory I believe there is a file that shows the values of all the air craft in the game.  That might help in this discussion.

THanks,
Duncan



_____________________________

Carrier Rifle Section should be modeled with their Bren guns!

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 11
RE: Air support - 10/17/2007 8:25:48 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I'm at work and don't have access to the game.

Off subject, but Vandersson, weren't you in on the discussion about British universal carrier units needing better attack values?  I can't find that thread, and I was thinking that American Jeeps appear to have better attack values (a 6 or 8).  That seems odd.  Did the Jeeps have .50 calibers?  Is that the explanation? 

(in reply to vadersson)
Post #: 12
RE: Air support - 10/17/2007 8:57:59 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Did the Jeeps have .50 calibers?  Is that the explanation? 


Would seem to be a safe bet, by whomever was the designer that added them.

Jason Petho


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(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 13
RE: Air support - 10/18/2007 2:45:18 PM   
vadersson


Posts: 139
Joined: 7/12/2006
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I'm at work and don't have access to the game.

Off subject, but Vadersson, weren't you in on the discussion about British universal carrier units needing better attack values? I can't find that thread, and I was thinking that American Jeeps appear to have better attack values (a 6 or 8). That seems odd. Did the Jeeps have .50 calibers? Is that the explanation?


Yep, I am the Universal Carrier Crusader. ;) I still contend that the basic Carrier Section should be modeled with three Bren Machine guns. Then when loaded onto a Universal Carrier, they should be able to fire while mounted. The Carrier itself would effectively have no armerment in this case.

Unfortunately, due to concerns of "gameness" the Carrier Rifle Section remains strongly under gunned.

Thanks,
Duncan


_____________________________

Carrier Rifle Section should be modeled with their Bren guns!

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 14
RE: Air support - 10/20/2007 7:55:35 PM   
105mm Howitzer


Posts: 447
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		AS early as 1942, Stukas were modified to carry twin 37mm AT pods, which racked up incredible tank kills. ( one pilot, forgot who, ended with over 200 AFV kills and he survived the war, flying Stukas) Not to forget the Sturmovik series which were universally feared by Panzer crewmen, due to their toughness and ability to scythe through a tank column. And in the West, ( albeit at a later date) you had the Typhoon which was the aircraft of choice for tank busting. In the desert, older Hurricanes were too outfitted with 30mm cannon which proved very effective.
So no, I dont believe the airpower is over-rated in CS.

_____________________________

"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" - Publius Renatus, 390 A.D.

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 15
RE: Air support - 10/20/2007 9:23:10 PM   
Arkady


Posts: 1262
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: 27th Penal Battalion
Status: offline 		Rudel

Hans-Ulrich Rudel (July 2, 1916 – December 18, 1982) was a Stuka dive-bomber pilot during World War II. Rudel is famous for being the most highly decorated German serviceman of the war. Hans-Ulrich Rudel was the only person to be awarded the Knight’s Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. Rudel flew 3,530 combat missions and successfully attacked many tanks, trains, ships, and other ground targets, claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed - including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery guns, a destroyer, two cruisers, a battleship and 9 aircraft which he shot down


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Post #: 16
RE: Air support - 10/20/2007 11:54:02 PM   
serg3d

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/23/2003
Status: offline 		I don't want to start a flame war, but I'm from the camp who believe Rudel full of sh**t.
Ju 87G could shot 12 volley from it's pair of 37mm cannons (dual 6 shell cartrige per gun). And Rudel claim mean that he should have killed tank per each one or two Ju 87G mission. While in the video he spent all the ammo sinking small gunboat. And gunboat is a lot more easy to kill than tank. And he didn't sunk russian battleship "Marat" , merely damaged it. Marat was used as an immobile gun platform anyway and Rudel  bomb (though some russian historians doubt it was Rudel)  immobilized it (ship sat on the ground) and destroyed forward turret. Marat continued it's fire on the germans after that air attack. 


(in reply to Arkady)
Post #: 17
RE: Air support - 10/21/2007 7:59:17 AM   
105mm Howitzer


Posts: 447
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Nevertheless serg, surviving the war flying Stukas is a mean feat by itself, no?
Arkady, thks for info. By the way, did you ever read the books by Sven Hassel? Just out of curiosity.

_____________________________

"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" - Publius Renatus, 390 A.D.

(in reply to serg3d)
Post #: 18
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