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Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? Poll

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Hornet Leader PC >> Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? Poll Page: [1]
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Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? Poll


Of course you should be able to exit before Turn 4! Yes!
  54% (18)
No! I committed to the mission and I should finish it!
  33% (11)
No opinion/Doesn't matter either way.
  12% (4)


Total Votes : 33
(last vote on : 3/7/2008 8:32:44 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? Poll - 10/13/2007 8:40:43 PM   
StormcloudCreations

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		Well, several have express a desire to have this added to the game, so...i'll set up a poll and we'll see what happens. Should exiting a mission before Turn 4 be allowed, even though you have two chances to abort before the mission starts? It wouldn't be hard to add, code-wise, so...vote and we'll see. It may even get added to the upcoming bug patch.

_____________________________

Derek
Lead Programmer of Hornet Leader PC
Mindtoy Games - Unique Strategy/Board/Card games for the PC - mindtoygames.com
Post #: 1
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/13/2007 8:54:32 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		Assuming it would only work in the case where you actually completed all victory conditions then I might be for it. But I'd still have two concerns:

1. Being able to use it to abort a mission where things were going badly without taking the extra losses you would if played out.
2. Even if only when mission completed... being able to use the option for some sort of "Rush tactics" that allowed you to get right at the target from long range without even arming for AA etc. knowing you'd then be able to bug out before having to deal with bandits all that much.

Basically wondering if either of the above two would affect game balance negatively...

So I actually don't know how to vote :(

_____________________________


(in reply to StormcloudCreations)
Post #: 2
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/13/2007 9:18:07 PM   
StormcloudCreations

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		Your two points were my concerns too. I mean, since you have several opportunities to abort beforehand, you shouldn't be able to just swoop in, bomb the target in a "rush" and then just be able to leave right away. I think it could be easily abused.

_____________________________

Derek
Lead Programmer of Hornet Leader PC
Mindtoy Games - Unique Strategy/Board/Card games for the PC - mindtoygames.com

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 3
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/13/2007 10:44:12 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline 		Ultimately I went with no just because it would make the game easier.  I like the current challenge.


_____________________________


(in reply to StormcloudCreations)
Post #: 4
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/14/2007 3:04:21 AM   
Shadow of the Condor

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		One possibility would be to deny the victory points/experience if the abort was selected. ANother would be to add stress to each pilot to prevent them from flying the next mission. Loss of experience, etc. - lots of ways to penalize. I can understand aborting when someone has planes that can't finish the mission (only AA missiles left to destroy the target, etc.) but the consequences should be severe.

Overall I'd say yes for the abort - but heavy penalties should be added to dissuade scenarios described above...

< Message edited by Shadow of the Condor -- 10/14/2007 3:11:59 AM >

_____________________________

"Shouldn't we be leading the shark back to shore, instead of him leading us out to sea?"

(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 5
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/14/2007 4:58:10 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I think it should be possible, but only for pilots that are in one of the outermost zones.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



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(in reply to Shadow of the Condor)
Post #: 6
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/14/2007 10:59:09 PM   
jureidinim


Posts: 91
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

Ultimately I went with no just because it would make the game easier.  I like the current challenge.



I'll have to agree with Koel here. Unless some other penalties are done, it could make the game much easier for some campaigns with the "easy" availability of longer ranged weapons.

Having said that - instead of thinking of it as an abort - which would be an automatic failure anyway - could there be a "Skip to End" option for the case where:
1) All planes are in pre approach
2) All Migs and Sams on board have range 0 - so there's no way they will get to attack me unless i force the issue.
Only when both of those conditions are true - the "Skip to End" button comes active, and if selected:
1) If primary target destroyed - get your VP's as per usual. This then saves clicking through the extra turns when you know nothing else can reach you.
2) If primary not destroyed , then this basically functions as an Abort - mission failure. Again - it just saves the excess clicking through turns you know nothing is going to happen in.

Of course, if any change to the game happens in the future to allow, say, Migs with zero range to enter pre approach... well.. no turn is safe anymore


(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 7
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/14/2007 11:00:29 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		I don't see why exiting from the outermost zones should'nt be allowed...

(in reply to jureidinim)
Post #: 8
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/15/2007 1:58:08 AM   
StormcloudCreations

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		Since the vote seems so split so far, if it continues that way I may just leave it as is. Making big changes with such a clear split isn't always a good idea.

_____________________________

Derek
Lead Programmer of Hornet Leader PC
Mindtoy Games - Unique Strategy/Board/Card games for the PC - mindtoygames.com

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 9
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/15/2007 4:24:45 AM   
jureidinim


Posts: 91
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		Could it be made optional? And a note that it was activated shown on the final score screen?

(in reply to StormcloudCreations)
Post #: 10
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/15/2007 4:28:30 PM   
Southpaw Samurai


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/9/2007
From: St. Paul, MN
Status: offline 		I voted 'no'.

Realistically, our Hornets SHOULD be able to leave the area early. They should also be able to loiter a bit longer to either finish the job or cause extra damage. And, should the flight leader see a wall of AA that will mostly likely take down most his buddies, he should be able to abort. The Navy most likely would prefer to rip the guy a new one for not even making an attempt (aka, point loss) and make another try than lose six Hornets with little to show for it. Now, when we get around to 'Kamikaze Leader', that'll be a different story...

However, Hornet Leader is not a pure simulation. It's abstracted. You have four turns over a target - no more, no less. As I mentioned in an early thread about exiting, the times where you finish early and hate having to spend a turn or two in harm's way is easily offset by the number of times you're allowed to magically disengage from whatever you're in after turn four. If you allow people to leave early, the next request is to allow people to stay around because they need more time or want to accumulate some more experience. I think allowing people to choose how long to stay in an area (through manual movement past the approach/exit zones) is something one might consider for a sequel that perhaps takes some steps away from the board game and more towards a tactical simulation. But given the current mechanics, I think allowing for the ability to leave early is asking for trouble.

Just to play devil's advocate, though, I do have to disagree with people seeing an option to leave early 'abused' by using long range weapons. I'm not saying it wouldn't be abused. I'd just point out that it wouldn't be too far from the truth for American fighters to dash into standoff range, launch some nice long range weapons and bug out without having to wade through all the shorter range AA. And over using the longer range stuff means you'll probably find yourself short handed down the road in a long campaign, so there is some balance. Granted

(in reply to jureidinim)
Post #: 11
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/15/2007 5:29:58 PM   
Umbriel

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline 		I vote yes, but they can leave only if they are in the outer zones.

He see 2 cases :
- Imagine an AtA hornet. After turn 2, no more bandit, no ATG weapon. If he is an Ace, I prefer that he come back to base and let his wingmen fight the SAM and destroyed the target (Ok, as they said in "Top gun" : "never let your wingman alone". But I'm the squadron leader this time ^^).
- the target is detroyed : ALL the hornet must be in the outer zone and leave.

But :
the SAM sites can't engage them if they leave but the Mig can pursue them.

So an option to put out all the sites counters to simulate the flee of the Hornet (but keep the bandit ones)? And the remaining turn are used to solve the pursuit ?



(in reply to Southpaw Samurai)
Post #: 12
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/15/2007 6:47:03 PM   
Shadow of the Condor

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Having read some of the subsequent posts, somethnig occurred to me about the mehcanics of the game. If I understand them correctly, destroying airbases means less fighters, destroying infrastructure means (structurally) weaker targets, etc. Which leads to me question:

In HL, do enemy bandits/sites accumulate experience as the player does? If so, would aborting a mission cause problems with the enemy not being able to gain/lose experience (pending the mission result) if the trigger for the experience gain/loss is the end of turn 4?

Finally, although I understand that the option might be abused, I would have no objections to seeing an abort option. If someone uses it to cheat, then they're losing out on the game's potential.

_____________________________

"Shouldn't we be leading the shark back to shore, instead of him leading us out to sea?"

(in reply to Umbriel)
Post #: 13
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 12:18:27 AM   
StormcloudCreations

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		For me, it's something that can be abused too easily to avoid a poor setup of bandits or to exit right away after a quick dive and bomb mission, which will affect game balance. The poll seems surprisingly split in opinion, so...we'll see.

_____________________________

Derek
Lead Programmer of Hornet Leader PC
Mindtoy Games - Unique Strategy/Board/Card games for the PC - mindtoygames.com

(in reply to Shadow of the Condor)
Post #: 14
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 12:28:48 AM   
buffewo

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 11/14/2006
Status: offline 		I think there are legitimate situations where at least some aircraft should be able to bug out early. I have had cases where by turn two or three, a pilot was either too damaged to continue or was out of weapons. In reality they would RTB and not be forced to hang around subject to enemy fire they could do nothing about.

(in reply to StormcloudCreations)
Post #: 15
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 12:34:56 AM   
StormcloudCreations

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline 		True...but they would have to turn around and still possibly fly through enemy fire to get back to base. It's a delicate balance, and I have mixed feelings about it.

_____________________________

Derek
Lead Programmer of Hornet Leader PC
Mindtoy Games - Unique Strategy/Board/Card games for the PC - mindtoygames.com

(in reply to buffewo)
Post #: 16
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 2:03:06 AM   
buffewo

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 11/14/2006
Status: offline 		A possible solution to that would be to allow them to exit but do an Event die roll to cover difficulties on the way out.

(in reply to StormcloudCreations)
Post #: 17
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 5:30:28 AM   
jureidinim


Posts: 91
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		As mentioned by southpaw - HL abstracts the whole tactical part of the game, so the 4 turns works for game balance. Those "extra" turns would be you egressing from target, but the enemy still gets a chance to lock you up and shoot.

I only have a problem where there is no threat to my pilots after turn 2 or 3 and i'm forced to click through all the steps until end of turn 4 just to end the mission.

I would say if the pilots end up in a spot (more than likely pre approach) where :
1)No Mig on the board has a range greater than 0 and so cannot reach the hornets no matter where they moved
2)No SAM can reach them (no range 1 SAM on board)
.. then activate a Return to Base button.
If the player moves his planes into range of the zero-range migs or where a SAM can attack - then the button deactivates.


(in reply to buffewo)
Post #: 18
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 8:20:22 AM   
Dan Verssen


Posts: 389
Joined: 7/28/2005
Status: offline 		Derek and talked about this tonight.

We're looking at the idea that at the start of any of the 4 turns, (during Fast Hornet Attack), you can choose to leave the target if all your Hornets are in Pre-Approach Areas.

Your pilots get the normal Home-Bound Event.

Your pilots get the standard target Stress, plus the stress for being shot at and/or evading as normal.

This lets you abort the mission if things are going bad, but you still generate stress, get a HB-event and it costs you a Day of the campaign. It also lets you leave early if the target is blasted.

_____________________________

-Dan Verssen
Dan Verssen Games (DVG)
www.dvg.com

(in reply to jureidinim)
Post #: 19
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/16/2007 10:12:26 AM   
Umbriel

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline 		it sounds good :)

(in reply to Dan Verssen)
Post #: 20
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/24/2007 8:52:31 PM   
Wlkbout

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/24/2007
Status: offline 		I had an extreme example of this last night playing the Libya 1986 campaign.  Had a pretty good game going.  Drew the "secret lab" mission card and decided to have a go.  Given the large number of planes allowed (8), the small number of hits required (2) and the fact that all bandits and sites are unknown until after the fact, I smelled an ambush and decided to come loaded for bear.  Burned a bunch of my special op. points on specialty ordnance.  Then on the way in I drew the "support" random event -- two hits to the target.  Which meant it was completely destroyed before I even got there.  (Tomahawk strike I guess.)  So now what?  I decided to abort only to find out that I got no victory points for the mission.  Which I guess makes some sense; although if I'd stuck around I'd still have gotten credit for it.  Bummer. 

(in reply to Umbriel)
Post #: 21
RE: Should exiting before Turn 4 be added to the game? ... - 10/24/2007 10:30:24 PM   
CptWaspLuca


Posts: 199
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		I think it should be possible from the outer zones. So everyone can play as he prefer.

(in reply to Wlkbout)
Post #: 22
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