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Finland gambit-FITE

 
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Finland gambit-FITE - 10/15/2007 11:04:39 PM   
philturco

 

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Anybody seen this one.Dastardly amphip attack supported by Baltic fleet on 1st. Russian turn to take Helsinki and knock Finland out of the war. Gamey? Yes, but a legal move. House rule to prevent might be a good idea>
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RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 6:52:23 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Maybe a stronger Helsinki garrison. Maybe somebody has access to the Finns order of battle to know what the defenses of Helsinki were. Or maybe it's just unreasonable that the fall of Helsinki alone would trigger the Finns to give up? It isn't historical at all, as the Russians never came close to Helsinki.

(in reply to philturco)
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RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 9:53:52 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		Finland had pretty substantial coastal defences at various points including Helsinki. These were mainly inherited from the Russians but had been modern then and had since been further modernized.

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

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RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 12:01:46 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bibbo


Anybody seen this one.Dastardly amphip attack supported by Baltic fleet on 1st. Russian turn to take Helsinki and knock Finland out of the war. Gamey? Yes, but a legal move. House rule to prevent might be a good idea>


Amateurs! Put Manerheim HQ in Helsinki on turn 1. And also try to destroy as much as possible of his Baltic fleet on turn 1.
(that's my recipe, JU 87)
I don't think that they can capture Helsinki so easily, they can use only one division. If you do it right he will have only few remaining ships in two tired flottilas.
And yes it is maybe legal but very, very gamey and in fact why playing a game against such opponent?
You cannot win as Axis if Finns are knocked so early in the war - it's bye bye to all plans for capturing of Murmansk and you can go back to Norway.
Don't know what Karri would say on that

Of course it is gamey to attack shipping on turn 1 lol but there are also airports that can be bombed on turn 1 - not good position for turn 1.

(in reply to philturco)
Post #: 4
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 5:14:02 PM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		Well it's gamey, and very unlikely(has anyone succeeded or even tried to?). There were plenty of Russian built coastal defences(for example several 305mm coastal guns) in the area, and the finns were in a pretty good position to just mine the whole area had the Soviets tried such a trick...

Actually before WW2 Finland and Estonia had a secret plan of blockading the whole gulf of Finland with their guns. All sides; finns, estonians and of course Soviets who knew about it, played their wargames and reached the same conclusion: that the soviets could only get through it with massive casualties.

< Message edited by Karri -- 10/16/2007 5:19:33 PM >

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 5
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 5:41:12 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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Status: offline 		ups double post

< Message edited by Monkeys Brain -- 10/16/2007 5:51:16 PM >

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RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 5:47:28 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Well it's gamey, and very unlikely(has anyone succeeded or even tried to?). There were plenty of Russian built coastal defences(for example several 305mm coastal guns) in the area, and the finns were in a pretty good position to just mine the whole area had the Soviets tried such a trick...

Actually before WW2 Finland and Estonia had a secret plan of blockading the whole gulf of Finland with their guns. All sides; finns, estonians and of course Soviets who knew about it, played their wargames and reached the same conclusion: that the soviets could only get through it with massive casualties.


Politically and strategically - the Soviets didn't have any plans and military assets to CAPTURE Helsinki in a few days after Barbarossa started. And strategically Finland was not part of Soviet strategic offensive plan - even more while they were LOSING town after town in Baltic, Belosrussia, Ukraine.
Even in 1944. Soviets got to Vippuri and then stopped, smart thing because Western allies would not look too positive into all out Soviet offensive into Finland. They took some bases in Finland for naval use and let Finns throw out Germans on their own (Lapland war). It was miracle that Germans actually pulled out of Finland in the middle of the winter running away from Finn dagger lol

That is just SILLY TOAW dynamics that let's you use IGNORE losses and sometimes be ABLE to capture some hex and because there is supply calculation after that then Finns are throwed out of war.

In real life I just don't think that ONE division could capture so big city just like that. It is just silly TOAW logic that put's Helsinki at one hex - so basically miracle could happen and Soviets could in fact CAPTURE 1/10 of the Helsinki city hex and then what - getting bogged in a city fight with maybe cut supply lines. Result in real life - Soviet POW's in Finns cages.

So basically, silly


Mario

PS. Just reading a book about German invasion on Caucaus and there were Finish volunteers that liked to use Finish knives when capturing Sovier trenches. Finns have got their revenge on commie mother Russia, all low paying jobs in Nokia is done by cheap Russian labour as some said. lol
And I only use Nokia cell phones lol they are best.


(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 7
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/16/2007 6:01:26 PM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline 		Just noticed, Manerheim HQ is already there on turn one, my mistake
Maybe someone can make a test if this is possible.
But my solution remains, anyway I always try to destroy as much as possible Soviet naval forces on turn 1. I sold this trick to Larry as well.

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 8
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/19/2007 6:40:15 PM   
Iron Dragon

 

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

And yes it is maybe legal but very, very gamey


I take offence to that remark. If I wanted to know what took place in real life, I would read some history, rather than play a game to find out 'what if'.

This game is about operational warfare. And...

quote:

Preemption involves using speed and surprise to thrust where your
opponent least expects it, preferably disarming them before there is a real
fight. It is the most dangerous and difficult to achieve, and often is regarded
as foolhardy or distasteful by others.


quote:

in fact why playing a game against such opponent?


Perhaps, then, one should go back to playing a poorly written PO if one wants their opponent to follow 'The Rules'.

Oh, can anyone let me know what 'The Rules' are for war, aside from those written in the Geneva Conventions?

Wait a second, there aren't any, the objective is to WIN at all costs, a total war concept.


(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 9
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/19/2007 7:27:53 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:


I take offence to that remark. If I wanted to know what took place in real life, I would read some history, rather than play a game to find out 'what if'.

This game is about operational warfare. And...


LOL
OK, if you can knock with one division Finns out the war be my guest.
The rules says that you can invade with one division.
Also JU 87 can sink many of your fleet, you can use some air that is left after 1st turn airfield attacks. But, at 140% shock is hard to achieve, screenshots please lol


quote:



Perhaps, then, one should go back to playing a poorly written PO if one wants their opponent to follow 'The Rules'.

Oh, can anyone let me know what 'The Rules' are for war, aside from those written in the Geneva Conventions?

Wait a second, there aren't any, the objective is to WIN at all costs, a total war concept.


OK, OK it is in fact NOT your blame but scenario needs much more honour rules, like not allowing Soviets to pull from Finns and send then against AGN etc...


Mario

(in reply to Iron Dragon)
Post #: 10
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/19/2007 9:21:59 PM   
Iron Dragon

 

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quote:

OK, OK it is in fact NOT your blame but scenario needs much more honour rules, like not allowing Soviets to pull from Finns and send then against AGN etc...


I agree with you in regards to the scenario requiring more 'boundaries', but the existing boundaries are there for all to read. Meanwhile, it behooves the operational commander to maximize the benefit and minimize the risk. Perhaps it wasn't 'honurable', but then, maybe I should have just stayed behind the start line and dug in and not advanced.

It's all about saving as many of my bits and destroying as many of yours as I can, in what ever manner I can, no?

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 11
RE: Finland gambit-FITE - 10/20/2007 8:57:46 AM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iron Dragon

quote:

OK, OK it is in fact NOT your blame but scenario needs much more honour rules, like not allowing Soviets to pull from Finns and send then against AGN etc...


I agree with you in regards to the scenario requiring more 'boundaries', but the existing boundaries are there for all to read. Meanwhile, it behooves the operational commander to maximize the benefit and minimize the risk. Perhaps it wasn't 'honurable', but then, maybe I should have just stayed behind the start line and dug in and not advanced.

It's all about saving as many of my bits and destroying as many of yours as I can, in what ever manner I can, no?




Yes, you are right...

But my experience with FiTE is that if Soviet player KNOWS what he is doing than AXIS cannot win. I can maybe 100% guarantee you that. Of course I would not say what I will do as Soviets LOL but I already see what Soviets need to do.

And then those moves are really not nececary.


Mario

(in reply to Iron Dragon)
Post #: 12
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