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COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/19/2007 10:48:41 PM   
Gil R.


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News Bulletin from Western Civilization Software's Corporate Headquarters:

At about 10:00 a.m. E.S.T., Eric began programming the "Crown of Glory" expansion, starting with the code for naval combat, which will be one of the most significant new features. From there, all sorts of other goodies will also be added.

We'll keep you posted as progress is made. But we're definitely under way now.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/20/2007 12:37:20 AM   
LarryP


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Excellent! I have been playing this gem quite a bit lately. I assume that a lot of what you did to FoF will be incorporated into CoG?

Legend for the clueless:
FoF = Forge Of Freedom
CoG = Crown Of Glory
ROTFLWMCO = Rolling on the floor laughing with my clothes off
Scratch the last one...

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/20/2007 1:33:32 AM   
1925frank

 

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Is this a downloadable patch or the type of expansion we purchase?

I've enjoyed CofG.  I don't have FoF.  I'm looking forward to any additions.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/20/2007 3:00:25 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Is this a downloadable patch or the type of expansion we purchase?

I've enjoyed CofG. I don't have FoF. I'm looking forward to any additions.



This would be a new product augmenting the existing game, not a free patch.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/20/2007 6:42:30 AM   
Reiryc

 

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I can't wait!  I've started playing FoF a lot again lately and has raised the bug to play cog again...  

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/20/2007 3:52:07 PM   
vanmi


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Great news ! I very like CoG. One of the best game about napoleon period.
I'm awaiting for more news ...

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/24/2007 2:42:17 AM   
semper fi

 

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This is good news! However, this expansion should be free since the original game was busted and failed to deliver what was expected. I hope they fix all the glaring errors and problems that have been duly noted in the game...

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/24/2007 4:45:40 AM   
Gil R.


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"Crown of Glory" won a CSR Award for "Best Pre-20th Century Game" and took a bronze in the voting for Wargamer's 2005 "Wargame of the Year." I'm not sure either would have happened if the game had numerous "glaring" problems.

The expansion will not be free, though I believe there will be a discount for those who already own COG.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 10/24/2007 5:17:51 AM   
Joram

 

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You're entitled to your opinion Marine, but quite a few people enjoyed the game quite a bit!

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/3/2007 3:38:38 PM   
Sytass


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quote:

The expansion will not be free, though I believe there will be a discount for those who already own COG.


Such a discount would obviously only make sense if the expansion can be bought as a standalone or would be offered with the original game as a bundle. Does this mean the people who don't own CoG yet should rather hold out till said expansion is released?

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/3/2007 5:10:27 PM   
LarryP


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No matter how you decide to charge for it, expansion or stand alone, whatever... I'm buying it!

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/3/2007 7:01:09 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sytass
Such a discount would obviously only make sense if the expansion can be bought as a standalone or would be offered with the original game as a bundle. Does this mean the people who don't own CoG yet should rather hold out till said expansion is released?


Tentatively, the expansion will be a stand-alone product. We're tentatively calling it "Crown of Glory: The Emperor's Edition". Tentatively, we're planning a features list that'll put it somewhere between a typical expansion pack and a full-blown sequel.

People who have a registered copy of COG will be able to buy the expansion at a discounted price.

COG is a great game right now, I wouldn't recommend that anyone delay even a single day in buying it!!!


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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/15/2007 7:26:30 PM   
Sytass


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Thanks for the info. I was part of CoG before release, and I thought the game had great potential. :)

I just got AGEOD's Napoleon's Campaign, so I will wait for the Emperor's Edition of CoG now. :)

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/15/2007 11:30:06 PM   
Gil R.


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Syntass, great to hear. I think you’ll like what you see.

All,
I’m pleased to report that I’m hearing very good things from Eric about the progress of the naval hex-war combat feature that we’re adding. Shouldn’t be too long before we’re ready to test that. We’re also redoing certain regions on the map, which should make for some very welcome improvements.

In general, we’re trying not to say too much about what will be in “Emperor’s Edition,” but one thing that I know will be welcome news to a lot of people is that we’re now making the more complex economic rules and features part of the “Advanced Rules,” and providing players with the option of playing a much more basic game that focuses on war and diplomacy. While we at WCS think the economic component makes for a far more challenging game, and many of our customers agree, we recognize that a lot of people don’t want to have to spend so much time running their economies. So, just the way “Forge of Freedom” can be a very simple game when one plays with just the “Basic Rules” or a very complex game if using the “Advanced Rules,” those who play “Emperor’s Edition” will be able to choose between simplicity and complexity.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/16/2007 2:42:30 AM   
Ironclad

 

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Probably a wise decision which should keep both camps happy. I have just read several posts on the Empire in Arms forum saying that they liked the idea of COG but found it too complicated.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/16/2007 5:16:56 PM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

Probably a wise decision which should keep both camps happy. I have just read several posts on the Empire in Arms forum saying that they liked the idea of COG but found it too complicated.


I was one of those people that found CoG too complicated. Then I got Ralegh's Guide and misc notes, read the manual a bit, and tinkered with the game off and on and it became one of my favorite games! Same as WitP, it just took some tinkering and reading and things became clear. I love the economy part of CoG now and will choose the Advanced when the expansion is done.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 7:26:47 AM   
Reiryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Syntass, great to hear. I think you’ll like what you see.

All,
I’m pleased to report that I’m hearing very good things from Eric about the progress of the naval hex-war combat feature that we’re adding. Shouldn’t be too long before we’re ready to test that. We’re also redoing certain regions on the map, which should make for some very welcome improvements.

In general, we’re trying not to say too much about what will be in “Emperor’s Edition,” but one thing that I know will be welcome news to a lot of people is that we’re now making the more complex economic rules and features part of the “Advanced Rules,” and providing players with the option of playing a much more basic game that focuses on war and diplomacy. While we at WCS think the economic component makes for a far more challenging game, and many of our customers agree, we recognize that a lot of people don’t want to have to spend so much time running their economies. So, just the way “Forge of Freedom” can be a very simple game when one plays with just the “Basic Rules” or a very complex game if using the “Advanced Rules,” those who play “Emperor’s Edition” will be able to choose between simplicity and complexity.



Excellent!

I hate when games 'dumb down' without the option of leaving the complexity for those that enjoy the more difficult aspects of a game.

Looking forward to the naval battles as well. Can't wait!

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 8:13:23 AM   
Gil R.


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Great to hear.

Yeah, there's no way we're going to dumb down the economic complexities. We have no doubt in our minds that a lot of people like that, and we think it makes for a far more challenging game. But at the same time, too many people are turned off by having to deal with their economies, and would prefer a game that's mainly military and diplomatic, so it makes a lot of sense to accommodate them, too.

Plus, if we removed the economic side of the game, so much of Ralegh's work would have been in vain...

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 7:50:11 PM   
ericbabe


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The economy in COG either seems to be the thing that makes people really like COG or else really not like COG.

A lot of people don't like the fact that you make more economic decisions than, say, the Emperor of Austria would have made, and they call this aspect of the game "unhistorical", yet the same people are perfectly happy to have the player make more military decisions than the Emperor of Austria would have made. I just think it comes down to what people are used to doing in a game: to many people it's normal to have god-like control over the Austrian military yet bizarre ("gamey", "unrealistic", "childish") to have god-like control over the Austrian economy. De gustibus non disputandam!

When we designed the game we decided that we wouldn't strictly model only those things that the Emperor would be able to do but rather that the player would be playing the spirit-of-Austria; many games seem to work this way. You play Austria, not the Emperor.

Also I don't think that the economic aspect of COG is really any more complicated than the military aspect, objectively measured, it's just that people are used to many of the concepts in the military side, whereas the economic part of the game is a lot of new things. Wargamers can read "zone of control" in the topic sentence of a paragraph, then nod, skip that paragraph, and they won't really have missed anything. This isn't true for the economic part of the game.

Plus a lot of people don't want to manage their nation's flow of spices and cotton, they just want to blow things up.

Hopefully if we make the economic detail optional we can please all of the people all of the time!



< Message edited by ericbabe -- 11/18/2007 8:06:18 PM >


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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 8:12:33 PM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe


Hopefully if we make the economic detail optional we can please all of the people all of the time!




I'd much rather fool all of the people all of the time. Much more fun.


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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 8:57:09 PM   
Uncle_Joe


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quote:

A lot of people don't like the fact that you make more economic decisions than, say, the Emperor of Austria would have made, and they call this aspect of the game "unhistorical", yet the same people are perfectly happy to have the player make more military decisions than the Emperor of Austria would have made. I just think it comes down to what people are used to doing in a game: to many people it's normal to have god-like control over the Austrian military yet bizarre ("gamey", "unrealistic", "childish") to have god-like control over the Austrian economy. De gustibus non disputandam!


I dont necessarily think that that is the case at all. It not a question of having too much control IMO, but more that the CoG econ was too 'fuzzy'. And by 'fuzzy' I mean that it was too convoluted and it was very difficult to determine what the cause and effect of various actions taken was. This leads to players making guesses rather than decisions and eventually to just the desire to not want to mess with it at all (and hence the reason why people dont want that level of control).

If the econ was more tranparent with easier cause and effect feedback I dont think you'd see the same 'resistance' to the economic aspect. And note that that doesnt mean that the econ has to be SIMPLE...just accessible.

I enjoyed CoG very much but I definately gave up on ever learning the actual mechanics of the econ and just winged it (which is far less satisfying for me than actually feeling like my decisions in the econ were important). Too many things just did not make consistant sense to the end user and thus were eventually just ignored (for example, Merchant income varied widely and wildly from turn to turn with no feedback as to why...eventually, I just stopped using them).

So, IMO, a complex econ with an accessible UI (not scattered over dozens of screen) and with clear feedback for the player's actions is far better than a complex econ with tons of calculations that are hidden from the player and dont allow for MOST players to make educated decisions. That latter just leads to players wanting to ignore that aspect of play (or automate it etc).

Just my $.02. :)

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 9:19:43 PM   
Gil R.


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Hmm. According to the Mensa website (http://www.mensa.org), this is how one qualifies:

Membership in Mensa is open to persons who have attained a score within the upper two percent of the general population on an approved intelligence test that has been properly administered and supervised. There is no other qualification or disqualification for membership eligibility.

The term "IQ score" is widely used but poorly defined. There are a large number of tests with different scales. The result on one test of 132 can be the same as a score 148 on another test. Some intelligence tests don't use IQ scores at all. Mensa has set a percentile as cutoff to avoid this confusion. Candidates for membership in Mensa must achieve a score at or above the 98th percentile on a standard test of intelligence (a score that is greater than or equal to that achieved by 98 percent of the general population taking the test).

Generally, there are two ways to prove that you qualify for Mensa: either take the Mensa test, or submit a qualifying test score from another test. There are a large number of intelligence tests that are "approved". More information on whether a test you have taken is approved, as well as information on the procedure for taking the Mensa test, can be obtained from the nearest Mensa office. There are no on-line tests that can be used for admission to Mensa. Feel free to contact Mensa for specific details about eligibility.

Mensa has no other eligibility requirements other than IQ testing. However, many tests are not valid for people under the age of 16. You should contact the nearest Mensa office for more information.


Perhaps I should write them recommending that the ability to demonstrate total mastery over the COG economy should automatically qualify one...

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/18/2007 10:21:29 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
I dont necessarily think that that is the case at all. It not a question of having too much control IMO, but more that the CoG econ was too 'fuzzy'. And by 'fuzzy' I mean that it was too convoluted and it was very difficult to determine what the cause and effect of various actions taken was. This leads to players making guesses rather than decisions and eventually to just the desire to not want to mess with it at all (and hence the reason why


I'm just going by a lot of the comments I've seen on other forums as to why people didn't like the COG economy.

I do think you're right that people prefer things that are more transparent. In the COG economy, everything affects everything else over a few turns. I was trying to design something I'd never seen in a strategy game before, an economy that was complex enough that making economic decisions might feel something like making economic decisions in the real world. In the real world, Paul Volcker increases interest rates, he doesn't know exactly what's going to happen... he may have enough experience to have a good idea, but the system is so "fuzzy and convoluted" that he's not just able to predict the exact effects of his decisions. Frankly I still like having this kind of thing in the game -- knowledge of the economy becomes a matter of intuition and experience -- but I agree with you 100% that the majority of players hate having to deal with something that's too complex to be able to handle more directly. There are a few European reviewers who really loved the economy in COG and one who actually "got" exactly what I was trying to do with it, another who thought we ruined FOF by taking out the COG economy, but I think these guys are exceptions and, (sniffle, sniffle), I don't think we'll being trying to implement this kind of economy again.




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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 2:26:42 AM   
sol_invictus


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Well I think you had the right idea; instead of 2+2=4 always, sometimes it will equal 3 or 5. Nothing wrong with some uncertainty. However, I sometimes felt that it was all a random crapshoot since I didn't have a good sense of why 2+2 didn't equal 4 at times. maybe simply a better feedback mechanism so that the player can easily determine what went wrong, even if there is nothing to do about it. My main complaint with the game as a whole was the interface felt like a chore at times. I hope that in COG2, the interface is streamlined without the gameplay being dumbed down. I also felt that I was more of an Economist than a General, but I dared not turn it all over to the AI. I am a control freak with these kind of games.

Do you know yet how you are going to modify the econ part of the game and if so, could you explain a wee bit? I also hope for an option to play with a more historical sized forcepool. I really didn't like seeing multiple huge armies running all over Europe. I think that once a Nation has conscripted over a certain percentage of the population, bad things should start to happen, both economicly and with civil unrest. Looking forward to COG2.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 8:46:56 AM   
Sytass


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I did like the idea behind the economy, too, but I think it might be better suited to covering a longer timeframe. Back at the time, restructuring/massively expanding the economy just didn't happen so much. Even the Russians, who massively improved their army between the 1805 defeat and 1812 still had only two main musket production centers and had a hodgepdoge of various calibers and models, in muskets and artillery (though in arty most nations weren't any better). I felt similarly about the tech research, btw - it reminded me a bit of WW2 games where you receive groundbreaking new techs every other turn (though there it fits). Again, I thought a longer timeframe would be better suited to this (e.g. 1700 - 1825 or so).


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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 11:02:11 AM   
jkBluesman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
De gustibus non disputandam!


Are you reading Ovid or Caesar at the moment or is your use of Latine due to the next project, the ancient game that was supposed to not be developed by WSC in the near future?

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 6:55:25 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

Well I think you had the right idea; instead of 2+2=4 always, sometimes it will equal 3 or 5. Nothing wrong with some uncertainty. However, I sometimes felt that it was all a random crapshoot since I didn't have a good sense of why 2+2 didn't equal 4 at times. maybe simply a better feedback mechanism so that the player can easily determine what went wrong, even if there is nothing to do about it. My main complaint with the game as a whole was the interface felt like a chore at times. I hope that in COG2, the interface is streamlined without the gameplay being dumbed down. I also felt that I was more of an Economist than a General, but I dared not turn it all over to the AI. I am a control freak with these kind of games.

Do you know yet how you are going to modify the econ part of the game and if so, could you explain a wee bit? I also hope for an option to play with a more historical sized forcepool. I really didn't like seeing multiple huge armies running all over Europe. I think that once a Nation has conscripted over a certain percentage of the population, bad things should start to happen, both economicly and with civil unrest. Looking forward to COG2.


We want to make the current rules the "Advanced Economy Option". The default rules, tentatively, will have only two resources, money and labor. Each province will produce a fixed amount of these. There will be no trading of resources, no slider bars, no waste rules (we'll find another mechanism to make making huge empires more difficult). Not sure what to do with things like merchants and the Feudalism rate.

Provincial developments will be limited in some way since many of them don't apply. I recall that many people didn't like the fact that you were in control of the whole economy (they imagined that one had a "Stalin-like command over the economy", which is not what we intended the player to imagine at all... c.f., spirit-of-Austria), so we may just eliminate provincial developments as well, though we'd keep some of the numbers such as Barracks and Docks since these are useful game concepts, I hope not too confusing for people, and serve a direct militaristic purpose.

As for the historical sized force-pool, the original game had severe "waste" rules for limiting the force-pool. The original design of the game also didn't have any super-long scenarios. Based on customer demand, we mitigated the waste rules and added the super-long scenario, at which point the gigantic army sizes crept in. We also had more customers complaining that they couldn't build up their economy enough to support the 2M-man army that they'd built, and that therefore the game was broken... many people just didn't "get" that the economy/waste rules were supposed to be there to prevent you from building giant armies in the first place. Anyway, we want to add a new mechanism for limiting army sizes, something more direct that players will be able to understand more readily (like a "Maximum Army Size Rating").


(Apropos of talking about the economy, one confusion that persists out there is that "Courts" refer to courthouses -- as if one were building county-jails or something. "Courts" refer to palaces, called "courts" at the time. Napoleon built many new ones in territory newly acquired by France in order better to govern that territory by way of establishing his new aristocracy there; the book The Eagle in Splendor is a great source of information on these.)



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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 7:45:31 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sytass
I did like the idea behind the economy, too, but I think it might be better suited to covering a longer timeframe. Back at the time, restructuring/massively expanding the economy just didn't happen so much. Even the Russians, who massively improved their army between the 1805 defeat and 1812 still had only two main musket production centers and had a hodgepdoge of various calibers and models, in muskets and artillery (though in arty most nations weren't any better). I felt similarly about the tech research, btw - it reminded me a bit of WW2 games where you receive groundbreaking new techs every other turn (though there it fits). Again, I thought a longer timeframe would be better suited to this (e.g. 1700 - 1825 or so).


I agree there was too much economic development possible in COG. Originally (at least in our in-house testing in the beta stage of development) we tried to ensure that economic development would be held to reasonable levels of GDP growth by balancing the costs of things with their economic benefits. The longer-scenario and the mitigated waste rules really allow things to grow much too large.

I don't think it's inappropriate to have appropriately large economic growth in this period though. Napoleon and the Directory introduced sweeping economic reforms, and to a large extent Napoleon engaged in an attempt at "micromanaging" some sectors of the French economy.

By way of examples: in 1800 London built the West India docks, expanding them steadily over the next six years, and in the same year the Berlin's Royal Porcelain factory begins to use steam power for the first time, greatly increasing its production of luxury goods over the next few years. The first advertising agency is opened in London. A major horse-drawn railway opens in the Ruhr Valley to increase mining operations there. Berlin introduces a new postal system. Denmark begins to regulate guilds in Copenhagen.

In 1801, the Bank of France is founded. Horse-drawn railways are introduced in Surrey. Gerhard von Scharnhorst starts a war college in Berlin. Chivas Royal Scotch whisky is first blended (an increase in luxuries if ever there was one). The London Stock Exchange is formed.

I do agree that as it is now, the growth can easily be too large. I also think that the more feudal nations should have a harder time of changing their economy -- note that the examples in 1800/1801 are all French, British, and Prussian (not that other places weren't making economic developments as well.)

For my own opinion, I disagree that the upgrades are too fantastic for the period. Most of the things on the list were things actually developed during the period covered by the game (or else were attempted to be developed, such as Rocket Horses), and their effects aren't anything like the sweeping technological changes introduced into WWII. They also for the most part don't represent technological improvements but rather developments in military doctrine or training. I would argue that the Coalition showed marked improvements in military doctrine during the Napoleonic Wars. I'd appreciate more opinions on this as I haven't heard too many people complain that the upgrade system is too generous.


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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 7:51:11 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jkBluesman
Are you reading Ovid or Caesar at the moment or is your use of Latine due to the next project, the ancient game that was supposed to not be developed by WSC in the near future?


Ah, for a while I was trying to read a few lines of Ovid each day to keep my Latin from sliding away, but alas! I haven't kept up with it.

We'd love to do an ancient game at some point, but no firm plans for anything yet.

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RE: COG Expansion Is Officially Under Way - 11/19/2007 8:12:37 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
I dont necessarily think that that is the case at all. It not a question of having too much control IMO, but more that the CoG econ was too 'fuzzy'. And by 'fuzzy' I mean that it was too convoluted and it was very difficult to determine what the cause and effect of various actions taken was. This leads to players making guesses rather than decisions and eventually to just the desire to not want to mess with it at all (and hence the reason why people dont want that level of control).
If the econ was more tranparent with easier cause and effect feedback I dont think you'd see the same 'resistance' to the economic aspect. And note that that doesnt mean that the econ has to be SIMPLE...just accessible.


FWIW, this is my distillation of the anti-COG econ argument as well. I think folks complained about complexity but really when you scratched the surface they meant transparency.


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(in reply to Uncle_Joe)
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