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Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 2:18:05 PM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		It has been said that after the war, when Japanese command grade veterans gathered, the two battles they discussed as "turning points", were Midway, and Guadalcanal.


http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-CN-Guadalcanal/USN-CN-Guadalcanal-1.html

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 3:04:38 PM   
Knavey

 

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Status: offline 		I think one of the big difference between Midway and Guadacanal is that neither side really planned on Guadacanal becoming anything more than just another island to take.

Midway was meticulously planned by the Japanese (every available ship in their fleet), and the Allies certianly knew that they had a chance of pulling off an upset due to their intercepts.

Guadacanal started small with both sides eventually committing their forces piecemeal in an attempt to force the other side off the island. Neither side realized at the time the ramifications of that small piece of land but in hindsight, you can understand the point of view of those officers you mentioned.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 5:54:14 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey
Guadacanal started small with both sides eventually committing their forces piecemeal in an attempt to force the other side off the island. Neither side realized at the time the ramifications of that small piece of land but in hindsight, you can understand the point of view of those officers you mentioned.



Both sides went into the Guadacanal Operations "on a shoestring". What the Campaign showed was that the US was going to get better and better and bigger and bigger..., while Japan's efforts were going to continue to be of the "shoestring" variety. Midway meant the Japanese couldn't "win".., and Guadalcanal showed just how painfull and inexorable "losing" was going to be.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 7:52:03 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

... Midway was meticulously planned by the Japanese (every available ship in their fleet), and the Allies certianly knew that they had a chance of pulling off an upset due to their intercepts ...


That was some plan; every ship in the fleet sent into positons that couldn't support one another, not to mention the Aleutians attack, which was an add-on objective from higher HQ that was never intended as a feint.

Many consider the battle at Midway as pivitol, but the loss of the KB made the American stand at Guadalcanal posible; this battle really turned the turn against IJ.


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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 9:13:52 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey
Guadacanal started small with both sides eventually committing their forces piecemeal in an attempt to force the other side off the island. Neither side realized at the time the ramifications of that small piece of land but in hindsight, you can understand the point of view of those officers you mentioned.



Both sides went into the Guadacanal Operations "on a shoestring". What the Campaign showed was that the US was going to get better and better and bigger and bigger..., while Japan's efforts were going to continue to be of the "shoestring" variety. Midway meant the Japanese couldn't "win".., and Guadalcanal showed just how painfull and inexorable "losing" was going to be.


Mike, I like the way you put that. I can't ever really get passed the notion of Midway being somewhat a "lucky" engagement for the allies. There's about a hundred ways that things could have gone much worse for the USN than it did. Still, there's something to be said for those with daring and courage making their own luck.

To me though Guadalcanal will always signify the turning point of the war. There was no question of luck involved. It was a long hard fought battle in which every service distinguished itself. I think the Japanese notion that the US would capitulate evaporated on that island.

Still, I was surprised to read recently that even in 1943, as Japan was fighting to hold on to Wewak, it was still planning on how to capture Port Morseby.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 9:23:09 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		The IJN's plan for Midway may have been big, but it certainly wasn't meticulous...

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 11:31:43 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The IJN's plan for Midway may have been big, but it certainly wasn't meticulous...


"Byzantine" would have been a better description for this plan.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 11:37:24 PM   
Terminus


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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/26/2007 11:39:22 PM   
Mac67

 

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Status: offline 		Nice documentary about Guadalcanel from the History Channel on YouTube, Lost Evidence:Guadalcanel. Contains actual footage and interviews with veterans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JhM5tpEVz0

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/27/2007 12:08:09 AM   
Joe D.


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Status: offline 		Byzantine, in the sense that the IJN's battle plan for Midway was not only intricately complicated, but so deftly deceptive that it fooled its own planners into thinking this would ever work.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/27/2007 12:39:05 AM   
trollelite

 

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/27/2007 12:43:45 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Still, I was surprised to read recently that even in 1943, as Japan was fighting to hold on to Wewak, it was still planning on how to capture Port Morseby.



You need to remember that "planning" of this nature is generally done by "Staff Wallah's" far behind the front, and primarily interested in justifying remaining safely behind that "armor-plated desk".

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/27/2007 1:19:47 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Still, I was surprised to read recently that even in 1943, as Japan was fighting to hold on to Wewak, it was still planning on how to capture Port Morseby.



You need to remember that "planning" of this nature is generally done by "Staff Wallah's" far behind the front, and primarily interested in justifying remaining safely behind that "armor-plated desk".


Probably true, but it was still the IJA's official stance at that point of the war, which was what, about Nov 43 that any day now they would be counter-attacking to take PM.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 10/27/2007 1:20:55 AM >

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/27/2007 3:13:42 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Probably true, but it was still the IJA's official stance at that point of the war, which was what, about Nov 43 that any day now they would be counter-attacking to take PM.



Of course..., because "officially" they were "winning" the war. It was in all their press releases..., just like the Navy's big victory off Midway... A major problem with the Japanese Military was their total inability to deal with the concepts of defeat or retreat..., better to kill yourself than face the truth.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/27/2007 5:23:51 AM   
Joe D.


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Status: offline 		Death before dishonor was more than a slogan under bushido.

Rank and file Midway survivors were kept in seclusion when they returned home. However, the admirals who led them received no such treatment.

Casualty reports were released slowly over time; it was a difficult deception explaining away the loss of the kido butai after its "victory" at Midway!

trollelite: What was the 9 phase strike plan?

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/29/2007 6:26:00 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Status: offline 		It kept getting more difficult as the "victories" moved ever closer to home.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/29/2007 7:35:14 PM   
AW1Steve


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Status: offline 		 Actually I always thought the IJN's planning for Midway was brilliant. With two little flaws. 1) the Americans were required to do exactly what the IJN wanted. 2) they neglected to tell the USN their role. Otherwise , Brilliant!

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/29/2007 7:49:04 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		Well, I always wondered why they had a diversionary strike at the Aleutians if the plan was to entice the USN out to Midway for the decisive battle. If the idea was to lure the USN away long enough to effect the Midway landing and then have the land base for their own long range search aircraft then the Aleutian cmapaign needed to start at least a week before the Midway operation. To me, this was one of the biggest weaknesses of the plan.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/29/2007 8:30:13 PM   
Feinder


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Status: offline 		The more recent thoughts behind the Aleution attacks are that they were not "diversionary", but rather a "concurrent" operation.

The Japanese were concerned from the start of the war from attacks in the north, based from Aleutions.  When Doolittle hit in April, they believed that the bombers had actually come from the Aleutions and the raid "proved" their concerns. Even if the raid -hadn't- come form Aluetions (which they would have found out by interrogating downed pilots), it still showed that they were threatened from the north.

The goal of Midway-Aleutions operation, taken as whole were to extend the perimeter away from the Home Islands against Allied air threat.  But the current thinking is that the Aleutions were in fact, -not- a diversion, but a concurrent part of a huge game plan.  I did subscribe to the common belief that Aleutions were a diversion, but evidence for "concurrent operation" is very compelling.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 10/29/2007 8:32:08 PM >

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/29/2007 9:01:00 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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Status: offline 		Naval personel regarded Midway as the turning point.  The Marines regarded Guadalcanal as the turning point.

Being neither, I always thought of Midway as the turning point.  Guadalcanal was a campaign rather than a battle.  Without the loss of four carriers at Midway, Guadalcanal would have looked much different.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/29/2007 9:01:56 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Well, I always wondered why they had a diversionary strike at the Aleutians if the plan was to entice the USN out to Midway for the decisive battle ...


The AL plan was imposed upon Yamamoto from higher HQ. Re Shattered Sword, the object of Op AL was to destroy strategic points in order to check enemy "air and ship maneuvers in this area," but the wx was so rough off the Aleutians that these "maneuvers" were difficult at best. Just ask any crab fishermen.

By getting a foothold in the Aleutians, IJ also hoped to interupt commo links between the US and USSR in order to adversely affect supply convoys between them thru the Berents Sea, and to help protect Midway's northern flank after MI was successful and the island secured.

Re Sword, Attu and Kiska proved to be nothing more than consolation prizes for the failure at MI.


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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 2:19:16 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Naval personel regarded Midway as the turning point.  The Marines regarded Guadalcanal as the turning point.

Being neither, I always thought of Midway as the turning point.  Guadalcanal was a campaign rather than a battle.  Without the loss of four carriers at Midway, Guadalcanal would have looked much different.



Historically, I've always considered Pearl Harbor as the "Turning Point". In the entire history of the United States we have never been so united and "pissed off" as December 8th, 1941. Didn't matter what the Japanese did after that..., or how long it took..., Japan was going to burn before it was over.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 3:05:14 AM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		I've always thought Doolittle's Raid was the turning point.  It caused the Japanese to freak out, change plans, and go off half-cocked with several missions, and it showed just how gutsy and innovative Americans can be.  It was a small operation that should have meant nothing, but the ramifications were tremendous.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 4:20:26 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've always thought Doolittle's Raid was the turning point.  It caused the Japanese to freak out, change plans, and go off half-cocked with several missions ...


I'm not sure it changed plans, but the Raid was the catalyst that helped put MI into motion; the victory at MI led to the succesful action at Guadalcanal, and so on ...


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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 5:24:07 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		EVERYONE must read Shattered Sword!  Those that have have made good comments about how the Aleutians and Midway plans evolved and are now placed in proper context.  If you haven't PLEASE buy and read that book--several times.  It is magnificent.

I, actually, think the real mistake was The Port Moresby Invasion that led to the Battle of the Coral Sea.  Without that battle, the Japanese would have had the full KB for Midway and the Americans would have had 4 CVs.  While we lost Lexington, the effect of losing BOTH Shokaku and Zuikaku made it possible for the Americans to win at Midway.  THINK about had the events unfolded as they did what would have happened to the Americans if it was Hiryu, Shokaku, AND Zuikaku left to launch the counterstrike.  While the Japanese would have lost Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu, they would have taken ALL three American CVs.

This would have left the Japanese with the 3 CV of the KB, Junyo/Hiyo, and several CVLs versus...Wasp...for the foreseeable future.  THAT would have been pretty...interesting...

My .02!



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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 5:51:23 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I, actually, think the real mistake was The Port Moresby Invasion that led to the Battle of the Coral Sea.  Without that battle, the Japanese would have had the full KB for Midway and the Americans would have had 4 CVs.  While we lost Lexington, the effect of losing BOTH Shokaku and Zuikaku made it possible for the Americans to win at Midway.  THINK about had the events unfolded as they did what would have happened to the Americans if it was Hiryu, Shokaku, AND Zuikaku left to launch the counterstrike.  While the Japanese would have lost Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu, they would have taken ALL three American CVs.This would have left the Japanese with the 3 CV of the KB, Junyo/Hiyo, and several CVLs versus...Wasp...for the foreseeable future.  THAT would have been pretty...interesting...



You are making an invalid assumption. If the US had had 4 CV's at Midway, what makes you think the Lexington's Air Group wouldn't have been involved in the disasterous dive bomber attack as well? Only took 3 SBD's to put the Kaga down..., how can you say an additional 15-30 Dive Bombers wouldn't have trashed the other 3 CV's as well? Speculation is all well and good..., but you need to make it clear you are talking about "wishful thinking" and not fact. You could as easily say if ALL the US strikes had arrived simultaneously then all six Jap CV's would have been "toast". IF may be the biggest word in the English Language...

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 6:21:57 AM   
Feinder


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Status: offline 		I actually consider "the turning point" to be where CPO Shun decked...

Oh wait.

Nevermind. 

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 6:58:14 AM   
SouthernAP


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Status: offline 		In the August 2007 edition of Naval History there was a critical review of the Guadacanal operations when compared to Midway done by Norman Polmar and a few others in the naval history field. He laid the case that it wasn't Midway that broke the might of the IJN but rather the bloody battle to control Guadacanal that broke the back of the IJN. He explains that if Guadacanal didn't happen, then more then likely the Japanese would of made up for the losses of the 5 carriers lost in 1942 with on going building and possible conversion projects. However, the authors state that attrittion warfare that occured in the skies, at sea, and on land was the type of fight that the Japanese just wasn't ready for. They make the case that similar to the Battle for the Atlantic. Crews of Allied Destroyers, Cruisers, and Carriers were being picked up and walking on thier replacements almost with in the week. The same could be said for the US Naval Aviation, USMC Avation, and the USAAF against the IJNAF and IJAAF. Whole squadrons were thrown into the fight for Guadacanal. Then when they were wittled down, the replacement aircraft were turned into the rotable pool at Henderson and the men pulled out to restock and train in the newest or latest version. Once it was close to 85-90% good it was thrown back into the mix. The Japanese just couldn't compete. They could have if the meat grinder didn't last as long as it did. If it was a 2 month battle then the Japanese would of been able to hold the US Navy off and possible pushed for the peace that they wanted. Rather the Allies were constantly pushing against the Japanese and basically wearing them out.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 7:45:20 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
You are making an invalid assumption. If the US had had 4 CV's at Midway, what makes you think the Lexington's Air Group wouldn't have been involved in the disasterous dive bomber attack as well? Only took 3 SBD's to put the Kaga down..., how can you say an additional 15-30 Dive Bombers wouldn't have trashed the other 3 CV's as well? Speculation is all well and good..., but you need to make it clear you are talking about "wishful thinking" and not fact. You could as easily say if ALL the US strikes had arrived simultaneously then all six Jap CV's would have been "toast". IF may be the biggest word in the English Language...


This is a good point, and it makes me wonder what would have happened if the the additional fighter cover from the other two IJN carriers had been available? Alas, only speculation is available.

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RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 8:08:24 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Mike,

I agree with your summary and that is what I get for rushing the posting instead of detailing it.

IF---you make a great comment with it and the English language---is the operational word. 

I had written a long set of detailed IFs regarding events of that morning and then started to get a headache and gave up.  It still seems fascinating to ask what would have happened if the two forces wiped each other out?  THe Japanese would still have had about a half dozen CV/CVLs where the Americans would have only had Wasp.  There would have been Naval parody through early-1943.  No Guadalcanal to bleed the Japanese Naval Air Corps dry.  Would have made for an interesting American counter-offensive!





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