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The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 9:56:51 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		This is a RANT!

In my game against Canoerebel (Dan), I invaded Pago-Pago a few days about. KNOWING there was a CD unit there, I did not fool around. The landing consisted of an entire Japanese Inf Div, Regiment of Engineers, Artillery Regiment and two small Base Forces. My opposition is a CD unit, FA Regiment, and small Base Force.

In the four days since landing, my two base forces as well as Artillery Regiment have been wiped out due to attrition and my other two units are at less then 50% strength.
Not to mention the probable loss of 10-15 AK/AP from THE SAME GUNS!

This means that a total of 5,000 troops have nearly wiped out 35,000 soldiers. Talk about CRAP...

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 10:00:23 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

This is a RANT!

In my game against Canoerebel (Dan), I invaded Pago-Pago a few days about. KNOWING there was a CD unit there, I did not fool around. The landing consisted of an entire Japanese Inf Div, Regiment of Engineers, Artillery Regiment and two small Base Forces. My opposition is a CD unit, FA Regiment, and small Base Force.

In the four days since landing, my two base forces as well as Artillery Regiment have been wiped out due to attrition and my other two units are at less then 50% strength.
Not to mention the probable loss of 10-15 AK/AP from THE SAME GUNS!

This means that a total of 5,000 troops have nearly wiped out 35,000 soldiers. Talk about CRAP...

John, any idea what unit it is? The marine CD battalions don't normally contain that much firepower. What level are the forts?

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 10:08:50 PM   
Mynok


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What do you mean by "attrition"? Has he been assaulting you or bombarding you?

I don't know what type of FA regiment or CD it is. That would tell a lot of the story.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 10:26:11 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


What do you mean by "attrition"? Has he been assaulting you or bombarding you?

I don't know what type of FA regiment or CD it is. That would tell a lot of the story.



Most likely his opponent has a rgt or two of those nice long 155mm army guns there that also function as coastal artillery.

IIRC there are 36 of them in one unit? Put in a marine CD Bn and you have a nice amount of firepower to dish out at unloading AK's.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 10:47:52 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		H ehas been bombarding me.  The units are a FA Regiment, the 7th Marine CD and a Base Force.  I just had 'attrited' out my Engineer Regiment and the Japanese Inf Div is down to 28% strength.  I have done NOTHING!  All he is doing is bombarding my troops...

We're now up to 3 AP and 2 SK with at least a dozen more about to go down.


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 10:50:40 PM   
Canoerebel


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The defense is the routine BF and CD that begin on the island, supplemented by the field artillery unit usually heading to Suva.

In abstract terms, this represents something totally unexpected happening - something the Japs couldn't foresee or prepare for - like perhaps a ship pilot steering the invasion convoy right into their own mine field (in real life, this happened to a US convoy nearing Iceland in 1942 - something like fifteen ships went down in 15 minutes); or a lucky shell hitting a magazine causing a massive explosion that decimated a convoy because the other ships were too close.  No, there were no Jap mines at Pago Pago and the combat replay didn't suggest anything of the sort happened, but rather it's the game's way of abstracting in the sort of wildly improbable and calamitous event that happens in war despite "the best laid plans..."

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 10:54:08 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


What do you mean by "attrition"? Has he been assaulting you or bombarding you?

I don't know what type of FA regiment or CD it is. That would tell a lot of the story.


There aren't really any large mobile allied cd units. If it's coastal art there's lots of guns to shoot at ships, but they should be easily over run with infantry. If its a defense bn they won't do much damage to ships.

Sounds like something else is going on. I wonder what the supply situation is.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 11:26:03 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I have some supply.  Don't know about Dan.

Cannot attack with the Division.  From the moment it landed, it has been so disrupted nothing can occur.


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/1/2007 11:29:30 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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Status: offline 		I guess just bad dice and roll...sometimes it happens to land and to get mauled by CD units...sometimes you overrun them easily

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 12:49:56 AM   
Cathartes

 

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Status: offline 		What was your AV?  What was the total AV of your opponent, AND what was his fort level?  Did you naval bombard first?

You were assaulting an atoll which is doubly difficult to begin with. If the defensive fort level was high, and he had some AV behind it, one division with an engineer and arty is not full commitment. Did you have a lot of surface naval support?  You need to pound that atoll with big naval guns--repeatedly, and then land, and then continue to bombard.  Without some BB/CA support you are just throwing your APs/AKs to the slaughter and adding critical disruption to your assaulting force.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 1:02:58 AM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

H ehas been bombarding me. The units are a FA Regiment, the 7th Marine CD and a Base Force. I just had 'attrited' out my Engineer Regiment and the Japanese Inf Div is down to 28% strength. I have done NOTHING! All he is doing is bombarding my troops...

We're now up to 3 AP and 2 SK with at least a dozen more about to go down.



Great googly moogly!!! It's four days later and you're STILL unloading?!?!?

That's your problem right there. If he does have those 155mm guns, it's no wonder you're getting sunk like paper ducks in a hurricane. You should have been totally unloaded the FIRST day, after no more than two phases.


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 1:19:51 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		No--I unloaded over the first two days and was so disrupted by the CD Fire, I couldn't organize an attack.  It was on the 3rd day that I lost the first group of units due to attrition and the 5th day that I lost the engineering regiment.  The 56th ID is hanging on by its finger nails.  I have a China Brigade nearby that I could land but am--frankly--scared to death to try landing them...


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 1:22:35 AM   
Mynok


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Two days is still too long to be unloading. You also needed to bring a BB TF to bombard those puppies while you were unloading.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 1:43:24 AM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		LOL.  Two days is too long to unload an invasion force that includes a division?  Say what? 

I can't account for John's bad luck and I'm the lucky defender that's benefitting.  I have 2 forts, I am supplied, and my AV isn't much.  I think what got my lucky roll started was that for some reason my shore guns ate his invasion ships alive.  Maybe just lucky rolls.

Hey, John, what's a China brigade?

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 2:22:23 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		Atoll combat won't last more than a few days.  If the invading force doesn't take ground quickly, they will die of attrition very quickly.  It's a win or die situation.  What it sounds like is that your invading division got mauled coming ashore and became very disrupted.  Once ashore, they didn't have the ability to take ground.  Now they are being whittled away on a tiny beachhead.

Atoll combat can turn on you.  I lost the 3rd Marine Raider batalion to a small defending force that had been isolated and out of supply for months.  They couldn't get the upper hand quickly enough and they were wiped out.  The 1st and 2nd were also in the invasion and they beat the defenders the next day.  In that case, there wasn't even much in the way of coastal defense.  I think there were only a couple of shots upon landing.

Bill


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 2:32:12 AM   
Cathartes

 

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quote:

I can't account for John's bad luck and I'm the lucky defender that's benefitting.  I have 2 forts, I am supplied, and my AV isn't much.  I think what got my lucky roll started was that for some reason my shore guns ate his invasion ships alive.  Maybe just lucky rolls.

I think it had less to do with luck and more to due with the fact that your opponent did not bring naval bombard and did not have enough carrying capacity to unload completely in one turn.  You can rely on him not to make the same mistake twice. 



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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 3:17:37 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


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Status: offline 		Always bring with your invasion TF some DDs and possibly some CL/CAs if you do not have any Bombardment TF close hands. Unload your AK/APs under the 155mm fire is asking for a massacre

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 3:31:47 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Yaaa...I remember how those 155MM did so well during the REAL war! 

Dan--You KNOW perfectly well what a China Brigade is!  These guys got tired of being in smelly. cold China and changed their uniforms for Tropical attire!


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 3:53:35 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

If its a defense bn they won't do much damage to ships.


quote:

Yaaa...I remember how those 155MM did so well during the REAL war!



Rear Admiral Kajioka would likely take exception to the first statement and be ecstatic that he didn't face the later instead.


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 5:08:44 AM   
Mynok


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Um...we *STILL* use the 155mm gun. One of the finest on the planet.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 5:20:31 AM   
BrucePowers


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Status: offline 		US artillery units in WWII were the best in the world in my opinion.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 5:37:01 AM   
Halsey

 

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Status: offline 		I'm sure ALL your units were prepped 100% for the assault before doing this, right?



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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 5:43:16 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Um...we *STILL* use the 155mm gun. One of the finest on the planet.


Yes, but when I looked the TOE of a couple Defense Bn only listed 3 155mm...shouldn't be too much for a well put together invasion force.


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 6:03:56 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		You were talking about 155MM Guns.  CD units generally have the 5" Gun--which seems to me to be 125MM--and THAT is what taught the Wake Island Invasion Force its' lesson.  The Marines there did NOT HAVE ANY 155MM at Wake.  

The only 155MM that are present are with the FA Regiment and they DON'T work that effectively against an Invasion Fleet.



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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 6:11:01 AM   
Mynok


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Perhaps not, but they work great against guys unloading way too slowly onto the beach.

Next time bring a BB bombardment fleet and put some CAs in your invasion fleet...which will be large enough to unload all your guys and supplies in two phases..ie ONE day.


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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 12:00:49 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

This is a RANT!

In my game against Canoerebel (Dan), I invaded Pago-Pago a few days about. KNOWING there was a CD unit there, I did not fool around. The landing consisted of an entire Japanese Inf Div, Regiment of Engineers, Artillery Regiment and two small Base Forces. My opposition is a CD unit, FA Regiment, and small Base Force.

In the four days since landing, my two base forces as well as Artillery Regiment have been wiped out due to attrition and my other two units are at less then 50% strength.
Not to mention the probable loss of 10-15 AK/AP from THE SAME GUNS!

This means that a total of 5,000 troops have nearly wiped out 35,000 soldiers. Talk about CRAP...



John,

did you have a CA (or better 2 or 3) in your invasion TF? Most often those soak up the fire or surpress the counterfire and in hundreds of invasions against CD units I have yet to see the invasion TF get mauled when CAs are in the TF. Without 8 inch+ guns in the invasion TF I see the TF get heavily hit perhaps one out of 10 times... but then something like in your case is happening and the CD units alone fend off the invasion.

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 12:03:38 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

US artillery units in WWII were the best in the world in my opinion.



thought the Wehrmacht had better guns

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 9:28:39 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


thought the Wehrmacht had better guns


I'm not the data guru that others here are, but I can tell ya Germany had some of the best direct fire weapons of the war.

However the U.S. had the edge in indirect fire, stemming all the way back to the end of the Civil War and leading all the way through today

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 10:15:10 PM   
ChezDaJez


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Status: offline 		Well, the Russians had some pretty good indirect fire stuff too, some of it was lend-lease but a large portion was of their own making.

Chez

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RE: The B.S. Power of CD - 11/2/2007 10:55:13 PM   
Lecivius


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Status: offline 		Yeah, the Russians had a fascination with indirect fire.  Treated it as one of the 3 parts of a succesfull battle.  And they came up with rocket artillery a full year before the allies

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