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RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/4/2007 2:09:34 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This should be the last update before freezing:

1) I want to make Japanese aircraft production use the same (new) initial numbers already implemented for the Allies. That is, new types will generally start at 1. The system in place didn't work as intended anyway.

2) I want to fold in a small amount of LCU and leader assignment eratta which has been identified.

3) I want to fold in any eratta found while completing EEO - my present focus.

4) I re-established Ki-34 and Ki-36 production in CVO and BBO families - vice Axis Hawk and RTAF observation aircraft - at two Japanese sites. When the slots moved - the production slots did not follow.

5) I will fold in any other matter identified during the update period.

ETA Monday.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/10/2007 1:30:45 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/4/2007 3:07:30 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Why do German subs need naval points to get produced? They are sent from germany, so why that?

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There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 3:31:42 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Well - yes they do.

It is a matter of hard code, game concept, and the fact we are "cheating" - adding something NOT intended by the game designers.

ALL reinforcements cost HI points. In CVO and BBO you don't have all the oilers in the TF 2 that refuels KB - because the tankers start mid ocean fully fueled I removed some to represent the used fuel capacity. These ships appear on Dec 21 - in Japan - after they returned. But you have to "build" them even though they were already built! It is a compromise - and I think better than too much fuel mid ocean. But there it is.

Since we cannot change the game code - we have two options: NOT give you German subs - or let you pay for em! Consider it a sop for those who think "the Japanese game economy is too small" - we make it "pay back" some of that "too much" in various ways. If we knew exactly what it should be - we could even increase the economy to compensate. But we cannot exempt the German subs - because there is no mechanism to do so.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/5/2007 3:33:11 AM >

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 3
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 6:58:13 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		How about working in those CVL and CVE modifications covered in several of our Threads?

CVEs
I cited that source for CVE plane complements (18 Fighter and 6 Bombers) and it makes a lot of sense to me. 

CVLs
Allow for conversion whenever the Japanese player wants to do it and add Nisshin and Mizuho to those capable of being converted.





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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 4
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 9:50:40 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

How about working in those CVL and CVE modifications covered in several of our Threads?

CVEs
I cited that source for CVE plane complements (18 Fighter and 6 Bombers) and it makes a lot of sense to me. 


REPLY: What source is that? There is some controversy about if CVEs have compliments at all? [Hosho is an exception - classified by me as a CVE - she isn't exactly that at all. Further - she sailed with a pure bomber air group - which seems odd because it is easier to operate small fighters - at Midway. Initially she seems to have had a very balanced air group - about equal numbers of fighers and bombers. The early CVEs may not have had air groups at all in the usual sense - but instead operated elements of shore air groups - which won't work for us for technical reasons. Later CVEs mostly didn't get to operate - so we don't know just what they would have had? And the Army CVE groups - if you can call them that - operated a combination of aircraft we don't have - including the Ka-1 autogyro as well as Ki-76 "bombers" - if you can call either a bomber. Plans for Ki-44 fighters on carriers seem not to have been implemented, but the "carrier" compliments were so small it could not have been very many.]

CVLs
Allow for conversion whenever the Japanese player wants to do it and add Nisshin and Mizuho to those capable of being converted.




In CVO and BBO this is not right. They did not operate that way - and a "strictly historical" scenario must assume it would not be until after something like Coral Sea and/or Midway that an intense search for ships to convert would occur. We can show the intent to convert one in 1943 - so such a date is more reasonable.

In general, players who want these ships as CVLs already have the option: play EOS family scenarios. There the planning processes for the war are modified - and the ships are built initially in that form. That satisfies the "get them any time you want" problem AND the air group problem. Converting them IN CVO or BBO won't help much - we cannot do a hard code change of air group (like Chitose and Chiyoda do) - so you end up with CVLs with seaplane air groups!

The main reason RHS is "fragmented" is so we can have our cake and eat it too: there are such severe problems with converting ships DURING a game that it is not very feasible. When we do it, players end up with problems like CVs without air groups. By picking the scenario, you can get any ship in any form you prefer. That is how RHS works - in the context of Matrix design limitations.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/5/2007 9:59:23 AM >

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 5
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 10:03:54 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I reworked Soviet tank brigades in a device technical sense. Both pick up a company of 9 AAMG - one had 4 of a device type that may not work properly - the other none at all. The too numerous infantry in one were reduced to a battalion - and both types got them turned into rifle squads. 82 mm mortars increased from 6 to 8. Stuff like that.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/5/2007 10:05:52 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 10:46:41 AM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline 		John 3rd, you can edit the scenario class upgrade, if it suit your preferences.

You only have to set Nisshin and Mihuzo to upgrade to Chitose Class, slot hardcoded to conversion to CVL....

< Message edited by Bliztk -- 11/5/2007 10:47:39 AM >

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Post #: 7
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 3:13:31 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		It isn't as simple as that. There is an intricate network of things here - class slot - ship slots - air unit slots. In this case, it appears that the SHIP slots are hard coded - and other Chitose class vessels (which some versions of RHS have) don't behave the same way as Chitose and Chiyoda.

Then there is the problem of power plant. Nisshin is not really a sister - and she has different speed, fuel and range data. So I created a CVL from her hull - modeled on Chitose in other respects - and (to my amazement) figured out how to convert CVL type airgroups from CVS ones. This is possible about the same time as the Chitose conversions - in 1943 - but has the downside risk of someone flying carrier aircraft from the CVS version of the ship - if they don't pay attention to what they are doing. While in EOS family scenarios I build some ships as sisters of Chitose - in CVO and BBO we should not do that for Nisshin - which is too far along - and because the game "conversion" routine won't take long enough (as it does for Chitose - which gets new engines for her CVL role).

I have worked up a CVE version of Mizuho - and can convert her air groups - but I have not figured out what to do with it?
I think perhaps it might be suitable for CVO but not BBO - which has a focus on seaplanes, flying boats and seaplane carriers on both sides. Nisshin was operating only a half group of aircraft - being in her midget sub carrier form - so her loss as a CS is not as great as Mizuho. Further - the gain for a CVE is less - being it is pretty slow. Her 24 seaplanes are probably just about as deadly to submarines as a half group of carrier bombers would be. And unlike the Allies, Japan has some semi-serious seaplane fighters. EDIT: After sleeping on it, I accepted this reasoning: Mizuho converts to CVE in CVO family, but not in BBO family.


< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/5/2007 11:08:17 PM >

(in reply to Bliztk)
Post #: 8
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 6:06:25 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		It was EEO, where the Chitose has three airgroups.
Together with its two Chitose AGs, there is also a Nisshin AG.
The Akagi D3A AG has 24 planes but is made only for 20.


< Message edited by Historiker -- 11/5/2007 6:10:14 PM >

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 9
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 10:57:17 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Reworking Mikura type escorts - regretfully not just for EEO - to make them more correct. It appears the DC pattern was 15 - permitting 8 shots - the most powerful ever mounted by Japan. These vessels are fitted with radar - and eventually a form of ESM. Reworking the ships is time consuming - as ships with sunk dates cannot be properly copied into other scenarios. The last two Shimushu/Etorufu also were also completed with more AAA and radar.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 10
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 10:59:39 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

It was EEO, where the Chitose has three airgroups.
Together with its two Chitose AGs, there is also a Nisshin AG.
The Akagi D3A AG has 24 planes but is made only for 20.



You are correct: Nisshin air group is on the wrong ship. Thanks. EEO is in pre release format. I probably was creating a CVL air group for Nisshin by copying - and failed to change the ship assignment. But it is just one value off - and the editor loves value 1 shifts - it might just be one of those things that happens when editing. Fixed.

Akaga Bomber (D3) Daitai should be set to max 24 aircraft in EOS family scenarios - and 27 in CVO/BBO (the difference because in EOS family there is a recon detachment on board). This was set right in CVO/BBO but wrong in EOS family. Fixed.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/5/2007 11:07:25 PM >

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 11
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 11:09:21 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		As far as I've understood, the building costs of a ship depend on it's equipment and can't be edited.
Isn't it possible, to give the german subs equipment with load costs of 1 or even 0, to make them cheaper? If it isn't possible to make them for free, building costs of 1 will be more to reality, no?


_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 12
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan - 11/5/2007 11:22:01 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		The short answer is no.

First of all, I do not regard this as a serious problem. You can rationalize that part of the economy is in Germany if you wish - HI points are not at any particular location.

Second of all, it is structural, and cannot be addressed by us.

Third, there are a very small list of devices - and we have zero free - so we are not able to create special devices for these vessels. There are way too many device compromises already - and reducing the number for general use is not a realistic option.

Fourth, I am not certain we can make a zero cost submarine, and I don't wish to do that. This would impact victory points for example - the sub would be worth nothing if lost. It may impact supply requirements. Can of worms. Keep it simple is my philosophy (really it is).

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 13
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan (update) - 11/7/2007 12:05:41 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		We have some bad technical news -

there is sufficient uncertainty (officially) about how records will be read that we must review a lot of records for ships -
and that is substantially underway. It is possible that a "gap" in device listings will be a problem for some (unidentified) routines. So we are policing those up.

Otherwise there is a lot of work to do re land unit device reorder in EEO (deliberately imposed) and reassigning of ships built after certain dates (also for EEO). Both process force review of data that sometimes yields eratta.

We have made enough changes - particularly bringing Japanese aircraft production in line with the new Allied system - and improved enough to justify a release - but it is still a few days before we will be completed and frozen.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 14
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan (update) - 11/7/2007 7:53:53 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I found problems with Japanese sub chasers. As often is the case with minor vessels, not much attention to detail was given. Also, while Japan's capacity to build these vessels was grossly inadequate to the requirements of a PTO war, nevertheless, they failed to organize to build what they could do - which is about one MSW per month. So it is possible to make some difference in EOS family scenarios - gaining about a year on the availablity of built during the war vessels - and picking up two units (i.e. 4 vessels because these are two ship units) in EEO.

Interestingly, almost all the big MSW of IJN were converted to PC in 1944 - so much so we make this be the normal case for all three classes of them in CVO and BBO. But for EEO I changed that - and revised only the AAA and added radar - leaving them as distinctly ASW is secondary mission ships - because of the need for minesweepers. There are so many good escort vessels in EEO that this seems a reasonable option.

The tiny Auxiliary MS are different: they remained minesweepers - although they do pick up a thrower (apparently). The way it works is this: Minesweepers have NO DC racks - the sweep is mounted where a rack would go. But the original types had 2 K guns = throwers with one arm. Thus they have a pattern of 2 - 6 shots of 2 for a big MSW and 3 shots of 2 for a Aux MS (which values are doubled for two ship units: that is the pattern remains the same but you get twice as many shots - each making its ASW attack separately). The Auxiliary MS apparently pick up another thrower - for a pattern of 3 - 5 shots of 3 = 15 DC late in the war. But the big MSW converted to PC DO get a rack - and it drops twice per pattern (while the K guns each throw wide to make points on the diamond) = pattern of 4 - 9 shots of 4 = 36 DC for the ex MSW as PC.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 15
RE: RHS 7.8653 Plan (update) - 11/7/2007 7:54:29 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		ETA today - plus six hours.

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Post #: 16
RE: RHS 7.8653 uploaded - 11/8/2007 6:45:46 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		7.8653 comprehensive files uploaded to primary distribution list. EEO is still in Beta format. EXCEPT for EEO all eratta which are known - and for which solutions exist - are incorporated. Reworking in particular IJN ASW escorts and minesweepers.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 17
RE: RHS 7.8653 uploaded - 11/8/2007 7:27:45 AM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 834
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

7.8653 comprehensive files uploaded to primary distribution list. EEO is still in Beta format. EXCEPT for EEO all eratta which are known - and for which solutions exist - are incorporated. Reworking in particular IJN ASW escorts and minesweepers.


IS there also a version 5 and 6?

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Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

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Post #: 18
RE: RHS 7.8653 uploaded - 11/8/2007 3:14:34 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

7.8653 comprehensive files uploaded to primary distribution list. EEO is still in Beta format. EXCEPT for EEO all eratta which are known - and for which solutions exist - are incorporated. Reworking in particular IJN ASW escorts and minesweepers.


IS there also a version 5 and 6?


Kind of sort of - and it probably is the very last edition for them. But the data entry is massive - and escorts are not yet quite completed. ETA tomorrow. Done mainly so the eratta will be fixed in the final edition.

(in reply to Jo van der Pluym)
Post #: 19
RE: RHS 7.8654 microupdate uploaded - 11/9/2007 6:49:03 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This keeps Level 7 current with 5.7654 (and 6.8654) developments: we found problems with two obscure classes of transport amhibs not present in other forms of WITP anyway. Fixed. This is NOT frozen - and there will be at least one more release for 7. We must complete EEO - and that will likely have impacts on other scenarios.


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Post #: 20
RE: RHS 7.8654 microupdate uploaded - 11/9/2007 8:17:21 PM   
Fabius_slith


Posts: 6
Joined: 7/7/2006
From: Rome, Italy
Status: offline 		Hello from an italian newbie !!!!

May I ask you to insert me in your distibution list.

I'm interested on RHS ( especially 7) for the deeper aspects of logistics and management of transports (for my work i suppose).

Excuse for my english!!!!! and thank you for all........

I'm studyng the game mechanics (read: play vs AI) and graphics (another passion like ex-modellist) but I want to make the great jump (PBEM)

For email (if you want) : fbsalv@hotmail.it

_____________________________

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Post #: 21
RE: RHS 7.8655 microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 12:51:27 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This is identical in form to 7.8654 microupdate. It brings Level 7 in line with 6.8655. That is almost the same as 5.8654 - except for corrections to T.1 class APDs - based on some original line drawings by Fukui - an IJN commander, naval architect, and author of the official report to USN of the state of Japanese ships at the end of the war.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 22
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 1:36:41 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Some people didn't have the 7.7863 comprehensive update. As a courtesy, instead of needing to download that and then 7.7865 microupdate, I have posted a 7.7865 comprehensive file set. This is IDENTICAL to the microupdate - but includes all the files.

Focus will now shift to Level 7 development only. My priorities are:

1) To deal with the problem of Recife Brazil (it "moves" to 0,0 after some variable long period of time, and becomes useless). It may have to become a meeting point for ship tracks - but I will try to keep it as a refueling location and point of appearence.

2) To add the missing "Japanese LSTs" of T.101 and T.103 classes. I think we will classify them as LSMs or LCTs because of their small capacity. This process will require some other LSMs and APDs convert to two ship units - to get the slots. There will then be 12 units of SS type, 30 units of T 101 type and 12 units of T 103 type. Not sure how many Type 1 units - but possibly 11. Some of these units may be 9999ed out in CVO/BBO families.

3) To add revisions to ships in EEO for both sides.

4) To make all LCU in EEO be consistent with formations - and to convert some LCU to have formations (so the code executes more efficiently and faster)

5) To work in any reported/detected eratta

6) To complete the review of RAN Bangor/Bathurst minesweeper classification

7) To complete the "Ju-87 review" process - and decide if we are changing any aircraft - if so which - and fold those into the EOS family (because we will NOT create yet another art set - there will only be standard and EOS plane art).

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/10/2007 1:50:47 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 4:21:00 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Where might 7.7865 comprehensive file set be located??

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Post #: 24
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 5:32:50 PM   
DonH58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 10/13/2006
From: Whidbey Island, Wa.
Status: offline 		El Cid
Good question where can I find your latest update(7.7865 comprehensive)
can you e-mail it to me? dehhill@verizon.net 
Thanks and by the way keep up the good work

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 25
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 5:41:30 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline 		Sid, I also would like to be put on your update list (7.7865 and ongoing as appropriate). I am only interested in level 7 and only the AIO and CVO if you care to save upload time. My email is ebeach3277@aol.com.

Thank you
Buck

< Message edited by Buck Beach -- 11/10/2007 5:42:51 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 26
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 7:16:44 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Bye and bye Cobra will post a link on Sendspace.

Eventually Mifune will post it to the RHS site.

We also have a German member who may post it to a site.

Meanwhile, anyone on the direct distribution list can send it to you.

As a last resort, I send out copies on request. [These requests in process]

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/10/2007 7:26:35 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 27
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 8:30:22 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline 		I wanted to publicly thank you for including me in your distribution.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 28
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 8:33:30 PM   
DonH58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 10/13/2006
From: Whidbey Island, Wa.
Status: offline 		Thanks so very very much

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 29
RE: RHS 7.7865 comprehensive AND microupdate uploaded - 11/10/2007 9:08:10 PM   
Mifune


Posts: 787
Joined: 4/28/2005
From: Florida
Status: offline 		After work I will compress the latest x.7865 file sets and upload them.

_____________________________

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Post #: 30
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