Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks

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Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/15/2007 5:55:04 AM

dumasclub

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Russian T-34 tanks are iimpervious to anti-tank and tank weaponry of the Germans in the game. While on paper the tank was one of the best tanks made during world war two, they were extremely prone to breakdowns, poor leadership and even worse training. While they had a powerful This should be taken into account. The scenarios are balanced and this does not seem to effect them as much as the campaign games, which are basically unplayable due to indestructable T-34s streaming across the field. Wjhile it had a 76 mm gun, the crews were not very good at long distances due to poor suspension of the tank and training. I'm playing a campaign game in 1942 and am dealing with a corp of T-34s which were not common until the following year. Could this be corrected.

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/15/2007 6:02:59 AM

Jason Petho

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dumasclub

Russian T-34 tanks are iimpervious to anti-tank and tank weaponry of the Germans in the game. While on paper the tank was one of the best tanks made during world war two, they were extremely prone to breakdowns, poor leadership and even worse training. While they had a powerful This should be taken into account. The scenarios are balanced and this does not seem to effect them as much as the campaign games, which are basically unplayable due to indestructable T-34s streaming across the field. Wjhile it had a 76 mm gun, the crews were not very good at long distances due to poor suspension of the tank and training. I'm playing a campaign game in 1942 and am dealing with a corp of T-34s which were not common until the following year. Could this be corrected.

I am in the middle of revising the entire Soviet order of battle structure, from the platoon level to the Army level covering the time period from 1930 to 1953. With this in mind, the campaign structures will also change. Keep in mind there are limitations in the Campaign structure, but I will do what I can to ensure you are fighting relatively historic TO&E's based on the time period.

Jason Petho

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 1:04:02 AM

Major Anton

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The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, and in September 1940 T-34 was put into series production mounting a 76mm gun. The Model 1940, the first T-34 production variant, t was armed with the L-11 76.2 mm gun, which was considerably shorter than the subsequent F-34 76.2 mm main gun of the 1941 and later models. The mantlet was also round in contrast to the more square mantlets of later models. The tank's main advantage was its simple design which made it easy to mass produce and repair. The T-34 was also small and comparibaly light, while the tank's water-cooled diesel engine minimized the danger of fire and increased the tank's the radius of action. The design overcame the technological superiority of German forces during the Great Patriotic War. Built in Ukraine in the Kharkov Steam-Engine Factory (KhPZ), the German general von Runstedt called the T-34 the "best tank in the world" and von Kleist said it was the "finest in the world." The T-34 had a more powerful cannon than German tanks, a higher top speed (32 MPH versus 25 MPH), and superior sloped armor and superior welded construction. However, the German Tiger and Panther tanks outranged the T34's original 76mm gun, and subsequently a 85mm gun was mounted on a T-34 tank. The T-34/85 was a modification of the T-34 equipped with a more powerful armor and cannon. T-34/85 had a flatter turret which gave this already inovative tank design the look that all tanks adopted after the wars end. Although not equal to the German Panther and Tiger tanks, the huge numbers of T-34s more than compensated for their technological shortcomings. I've also read that they just drove the T-34s into Panthers and Tigers to disable them and to get a shot at the rear armor. So not impervious, It was a tough tank and was fielded by 1940.

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 1:08:41 AM

Jason Petho

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Correct indeed, Major Anton. Although I believe he was referring to the sheer number of them. While they were fielded in 1940, they were relatively few and far between (with exception) until the tank brigades of late 41.

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 3:18:32 AM

Warhorse

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About 967 of the first T-34 were available in june of 1941 to the Western Military District.

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 4:06:42 AM

Jason Petho

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As noted, with exception. Although, my notes suggest 383 KV's and T-34s in the Western District. (First echelon)

Compared to the total of approximately 17,000 armoured vehicles in the Soviet forces, running into a Corps of T-34's is not the "norm".

Jason Petho

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 11/16/2007 4:09:15 AM >

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 9:17:31 AM

Gunner98

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The exact number of T-34 available early in the war is difficult to pin down and has been argued for decades. The real question is - how do you count - production numbers are reasonably reliable but do not reflect front line strength; casualty figures are unreliable and somewhat awkward to use but are sometimes all there is; German estimates are usually good for the 22nd 41 of June but not beyond. Here are some fairly good sources

According to "Russian Tanks of World War II" authors Tim Bean and Will Fowler, (MBI 2002)

Soviet Tank Production
� 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Totals
T-34 3014 12553 15529 2995 � 34091
T-34/85 � � 283 11778 7230 23661
KV-1 1121 1753 � � � 2874
KV-2 232 � � � � 232
KV-1S � 780 452 � � 1232
KV-85 � � 130 � � 130

Although the Total for T-34/85 should read 19,291 I believe. A total wartime production of T34 would be 57,752 which may be a bit high.

Kampfpanzer von 1916 bis 1966 by von Senger und Etterlin, as quoted in 'Armour in Profile Number 9, T34/76' J.M Brereton (Profile 1967) places the numbers lower but is probably only counting the T-34 not the T-34/85.

Soviet Tank Production
� 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Totals
All T-34 115 2810 ~5000 ~10000 11758 ~10000 39683

Bryan Fugate has a very good summary in the Annexes to 'Operation Barbarossa - Strategy and Tactics on the Eastern Front, 1941' (Presidio 1984) and places the number of T-34 in the Western Military District at ~2,910. However if you add von Senger's production for 1940 and 41 you get a suspiciously close match. A more telling number is an analysis of the probable tank strength facing Army Group Centre, here he places it at 282 T-34 (mostly in 6 Mech Corps).

Perhaps the best source is David M Glantz & Jonathan House ' When Titans Clashed - How the Red Army Stopped Hitler' (U of Kansas, 1995). Glantz states that there were 1,861 T-34 and KV-1 available on 22 June 41 and that they were primarily in five mechanized corps, over half of them were divided between the 4th Mech Corps in Kiev MD and the 6th Mech Corps in the Western Special MD. The 3rd, 8th and 15th had around 100 each. So one could surmise that there were about 1,200 were in the West at the start of Operation Barbarossa.

I think that a very important factor in the discussion of the early T-34 is that only 1 in 10 (on a good day) had a radio. Added to lack of proper training or maintenance, the lack of radios had a very serious affect on how they could be used.

Enjoy the debate.

Bart

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 4:22:34 PM

Jason Petho

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My numbers also come from Glantz, although from "The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front".

Exciting times!

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/16/2007 11:45:12 PM

Warhorse

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Wolfgang Fleischer-
russian Tanks and Armored vehicles 1917-1945 places similiar results to Kampfpanzer

t-34
1940-117
1941-3014
1942-12,533
1943-15,712
1944-3723
1945-0
Total 35,099
Cool book, lists production for all tanks and SPG's

Indeed early production Soviet tanks didn't have many if any radio's, and had to use semophores and hand signals, requiring platoons to stay close and commanders exposed!

Mike

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/21/2007 10:15:31 PM

dumasclub

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I think my point was twofold regarding the T-34. Yes it was a good tank but it was extremly prone to malfunctions and poorly crewed. Anyone who reads "Hitler's War in the East" details first hand German accounts of T-34s being hard to kill. However, their crews showed poor tactical abilities and skills if at all until later in the war when a sufficent enough of tankers survived to create elite divisions and corp units. Both of these issue, malfunctions and poor crews, should be included the tank's abilities and I do not believe it is. I would give T-34s less movement rating and a much smaller attack ability, possibly even a half or three quarters early on.

As for the numbers of them, it's a problem with the campaign games. Many of T-34s were salted through the tank organizations, so there weren't large numbers of them in anyone battle. Soviet commanders would often not commit their T-34s until after a battle was lost to prevent a rout and kept them in reserve, as well, making their appearance some what of a rarity early on.

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/21/2007 10:44:23 PM

1925frank

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If designing a scenario, one way to reflect some of the things dumasclub is describing is to lower the morale of the tank platoons and not provide any leaders who can boost morale. A platoon with low morale is more likely to disrupt and once disrupted is less likely to come out of disruption. If the morale is low enough, the unit might disappear from the map entirely even if it is at full strength. A disrupted platoon will display a lot of drawbacks -- reduced range of movement, inabilty to move toward the enemy, inability to assault, and greatly reduced attack value. The inherent strengths of the tank remain the same, but your ability to take advantage of them is greatly reduced or even squandered because the low morale.

For me, in the context of Campaign Series, morale means combat training and experience. For me, the use of the term "morale" within the game is a bit of a misnomer. When I think of morale, I think of the willingness to fight. Even if willing to fight, troops without training or with limited experience will generally not perform well.

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RE: Impervious T-34 Russian Tanks - 11/22/2007 7:21:19 AM

XLVIIIPzKorp

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A while ago I experimented with a mod to the Russian OOB wherein I created 9 SP T-34 companies for the early war period. These would've replaced all platoon units in 1941 scenarios on a 1 for 3 basis. By doing so I was hoping to reflect the lack of Soviet radios and tactical expertise early in the war, forcing deployment and manuver in company strength units only. The net result obviously removed much "manuver" ability from the tank companies and I thought it did go a long way to simulate lack of radios and the inability to deploy for combat early on in any way similar to the Germans. It was a real mother though when a 9 SP T-34 company fired on you. Ultimately I thought of creating a 1941 Russian OOB where the smallest Soviet armored units would've been a companies rather than platoons. Just my thoughts.....

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