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The Best SMG in the Game

 
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The Best SMG in the Game - 11/18/2007 5:05:34 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		As it turns out, it's the Finnish Suomi. (Accuracy 8, HE Kill 5). The Thompson is a close second (Accuracy 8, HE Kill 4).

Post #: 1
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/18/2007 9:40:15 AM   
SuomiKp


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline 		I think the Thompson should have higher HE than Suomi but Finnish smg should have higher accuracy , just my humble opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LmdP6nep9c short video of Suomi smg , note the sound

< Message edited by SuomiKp -- 11/18/2007 9:54:58 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 2
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/18/2007 5:02:32 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		some sources state the suomi has a higher rate of fire than does the Thompson, this is most liekly why HE kill is higher.
BTW before anyone jumps on the Enhanced team, we didnt really mess with SMG numbers.
They have been around forever.



< Message edited by Alby -- 11/18/2007 5:04:26 PM >

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RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/18/2007 11:43:05 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

some sources state the suomi has a higher rate of fire than does the Thompson, this is most liekly why HE kill is higher.
BTW before anyone jumps on the Enhanced team, we didnt really mess with SMG numbers.
They have been around forever.




I'm not disputing the numbers, Alby. I was just making an observation.

Now, if I could give those Finnish SMGs some AP rounds...(just kidding ).


(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 4
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/20/2007 3:51:36 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		Don't forget to consider range in your comparison as well.

In SPWAW the US, Finn and Soviet SMGs enjoy a 4-hex range, while the German, UK and ANZAC offerings only reach out 3 hexes.

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 5
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/20/2007 5:11:10 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tracer

Don't forget to consider range in your comparison as well.

In SPWAW the US, Finn and Soviet SMGs enjoy a 4-hex range, while the German, UK and ANZAC offerings only reach out 3 hexes.


Right, Tracer. Comparing the Suomi, the Thompson, and the PPSh, the Suomi comes out the clear winner in range, accuracy and killing power (in game terms).

These ratings have existed for years. I'm not about to contest them, as I haven't tested any of them on a firing range.

Here's a quote, from JaegerPlatoon.net:

" Suomi M/31 submachinegun proved to be excellent submachinegun: It had superb firepower, excellent accuracy, good muzzle-velocity and outstanding reliability. Only minus for its users was its weight. Before Winter War it had been intended to role of squad support weapon, which Rifle Squad would have used as kind of a replacement of light machinegun. This proved poor idea, but when the correct role for submachinegun was understood Suomi m/31 proved huge success. While poor as support weapon wannabe it proved remarkably effective once used as individual weapons issued to most capable soldiers. It gave these individual capable soldiers excellent short-range firepower in relatively compact form - light machineguns were still large and heavy compared to it. Suomi submachinegun was unusually accurate weapon as a submachinegun and had longer range then most other submachineguns of its time. This was thanks to quite good ergonomics, rather long barrel (when compared to other submachineguns of that time), small recoil, powerfully loaded ammunition and quite a good sights. Rear sight is fully adjustable and has rather optimistically settings up to 500 metres, while front sight is drift adjustable. In Finnish forests its range typically proved quite long enough and thanks to 70-round drums and fast rate-of-fire Suomi M/31 was able to spray more lead into air faster than most light machineguns of that time. Suomi M/31 become favoured weapon among Finnish troops and soon they got distributed to best soldiers who knew to how to get maximum performance out of them..."

(in reply to tracer)
Post #: 6
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/20/2007 9:01:51 AM   
Whitmire

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 3/12/2006
Status: offline 		The poor English on that site is somewhat distracting, but there is lots of good information about weapons there.

I got to fondle one of those weapons in the making of Tali-Ihantala 1944, and I have to say that it really was heavy with the wooden stock and the drum clip. But then, as far as I know, the "Trench Broom" wasn't very light either!

I found the clip release mechanism very sensitive, and I managed to drop the drum clip twice in accident before I learned how to hold the weapon correctly (I do have arms training, so it wasn't just me!). The expert on site told us that there were two typical ways to hold the weapon: hold it on the hip, with the left hand grasping the barrel (yeah - until it gets too hot to handle!), and fire it with "instinct" (i.e. without actually using the sights to aim). This position was for close combat and recon, where you might walk into a sudden ambush.

The other position was similar, but this time you'd actually get to aim. The left hand either grasps the barrel, or holds the weapon's wooden stock just in front of the trigger, and the weapon is brought up to enable aiming through the sights.

However, instead of using the wooden stock to deliver the recoil to your shoulder, you hold your thumb in the rear end of the barrel and take the kickback in your thumb! This holds true for both positions, and it should actually reduce the effects of recoil.

I found a picture that might make my description a bit easier to grasp. Here's the picture of some guy holding the weapon (note the thumb):
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/suomi42.jpg

The clip release mechanism can't be seen properly thanks to the dark sleeve, but it's right behind the drum clip, and it's some 2,5 cm (an inch) long.

< Message edited by Whitmire -- 11/20/2007 9:04:42 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 7
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/21/2007 1:18:40 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whitmire

I found a picture that might make my description a bit easier to grasp. Here's the picture of some guy holding the weapon (note the thumb):
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/suomi42.jpg

Seems to be straight clip on that one instead drum (those were used as well). But how about placing left hand to the clip instead?

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Whitmire)
Post #: 8
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/21/2007 2:29:55 PM   
Whitmire

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 3/12/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know why, but this is what I was told. I've seen pictures of the PPSh being used that way, and that's a copy of Suomi/31.

I know I'd prefer holding on to something more stable than a round clip.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 9
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/21/2007 7:03:02 PM   
Steve Petersen


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		The PPSH is based on this weapon? Wow. I love the PPsh. That sucker throws a lot of lead.

Was the drum used frequently on either of these weapons or was it too heavy/cumbersome?

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(in reply to Whitmire)
Post #: 10
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/21/2007 8:33:43 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		Heres a cool video of PPSh being fired with Drum magazine....listen to the Rate of Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQpJj1TF7M&feature=related

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Post #: 11
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/22/2007 5:46:06 AM   
Korpraali V


Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Petersen

Was the drum used frequently on either of these weapons or was it too heavy/cumbersome?


At least in Suomi SMG drum magazine was preferred among the soldiers. It had more ammo, was easy to reload and - most importantly - was reliable. Box magazine got stuck at times.

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Post #: 12
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/22/2007 6:34:36 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Let's get back to the game database for a moment. The Russians copied the Suomi, yes, but apparently they didn't do a very good job at it. The PPSh apparently did have a high rate of fire, but wasn't very accurate. This has a range of implications that has no place in this discussion.

In the game, the PPSh has an acuracy of 5. The Suomi's, as earlier mentioned, is 8. In game terms, the Finnish weapon is more likely to cause casualties/suppression than any other SMG in the database. In the hands of a highly-experienced unit, this would indeed be a fearsome close-quarters weapon.


(in reply to Korpraali V)
Post #: 13
RE: The Best SMG in the Game - 11/22/2007 12:17:31 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Let's get back to the game database for a moment. The Russians copied the Suomi, yes, but apparently they didn't do a very good job at it.

It's by purpose: PPSh is simplified version that can be produced in low quality product shops. That made it very numerous very fast. Same as with Sten.

[edit]
What is interesting though, is that Combat Mission 2 has about same numbers for both weapons.

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 14
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