Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: mlc82

(please don't think I'm being 100% serious here, but this IS a genuine question)

Do you think then, that if the Japanese given their WWII history should not be portrayed as anything less than savage and barbaric (and not just in an obvious scenario such as a movie about Nanking, but rather ALL of them), then did you also find it atrocious that the recent 300 movie showed Spartans as being anything less than what we today would consider hard core totalitarian fascists completely devoid of any sympathy for anyone other than fellow Spartans (similar to Nazi sentiment toward Jews, Eastern peoples, etc)? That they were portrayed as freedom loving heroes of mankind should be especially galling...

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ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.

Back to the original point of the thread: not all of the Japanese soldiers portrayed in "Letters" ran around screaming "Maline, you die!". Patriotism and blind obedience to an evil or incompetent government aren't necessarily related. Some of you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference.

Rational thinking seems to be in short supply in these days. This thread is on the downward slope to the inevitable locking up.

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ORIGINAL: mjk428

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ORIGINAL: mlc82

(please don't think I'm being 100% serious here, but this IS a genuine question)

Do you think then, that if the Japanese given their WWII history should not be portrayed as anything less than savage and barbaric (and not just in an obvious scenario such as a movie about Nanking, but rather ALL of them), then did you also find it atrocious that the recent 300 movie showed Spartans as being anything less than what we today would consider hard core totalitarian fascists completely devoid of any sympathy for anyone other than fellow Spartans (similar to Nazi sentiment toward Jews, Eastern peoples, etc)? That they were portrayed as freedom loving heroes of mankind should be especially galling...

No. I sorta kinda liked "Letters" and had no problem with the Japanese officer being shown positively. I did have a problem with the Marines being shown negatively without the proper context. I doubt the average audience member is aware of the previous history the Marines had in places like Guadalcanal. After all, most recent US High School graduates think we fought alongside the Germans against the Soviets in WW2.

I loved "300" but I'd say it belongs in the company of "LOTR" rather than "Tora, Tora, Tora.

One is ancient history and the other is recent history, at least for me. You're a generation removed. None of my Dad's grandkids take WW2 as personal as his kids do.

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ORIGINAL: mjk428

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ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.

Back to the original point of the thread: not all of the Japanese soldiers portrayed in "Letters" ran around screaming "Maline, you die!". Patriotism and blind obedience to an evil or incompetent government aren't necessarily related. Some of you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference.

Rational thinking seems to be in short supply in these days. This thread is on the downward slope to the inevitable locking up.

What I'm seeing above is evidence of ignorance. And the inevitable call by "Gunny" for a lock up.

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ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons? Please explain how I am wrong, and how far-right you are.

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ORIGINAL: mjk428

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ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons? Please explain how I am wrong, and how far-right you are.

Ignorance of racism for one.

The Japanese are NOT all "bloodthirsty baby killers". BUT Japanese doctrine was abominable during WW2. Atrocities were the norm.

The difference between Nanking & My Lai is that the latter was a national disgrace condemned on the front page of all our newspapers; with the perpetrators punished. OTOH, the "beheading" competition in Nanking was a sporting event. We punish rapists, the Japs had "comfort" women. Imperial Japan and the US are not moral equivalents.

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ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.

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What I'm seeing above is evidence of ignorance. And the inevitable call by "Gunny" for a lock up.

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I honestly don't remember "Letters" showing the Marines in a negative light

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Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons?

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ORIGINAL: Doggie
Thank you. And I never even went to law school.

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Nothing of subtance other than a documented history of savagry and sadism that would put Attilla the Hun to shame. "Substance" would be taking a the rare examples of criminal activity on the part of a few individual American soldiers and comparing it to the institutional barbarism that was standard operating procedure with the Japanese armed forces.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.

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ORIGINAL: Sarge
So you cant make the distinction between the German and Japans concentration camps of WWII and the “Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave“.

Truly a scary point of view, speaks volumes on your mindset

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is that you dont really seem to know how to respond to that little fact...that the US put people in concentration camps...so instead you try to go for another strawman combined with fake outrage.

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ORIGINAL: Doggie
This from the author of "You're a racist!!! You're all racists!! And look what you did to the poor Indians!!!" when it's obvious you know nothing of the subject on which you wish to enlignten us about.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Now, try to understand this. Guilt is always individual, never collective. That means that the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier in the minefield is not as guilty as the one who raped fifty women in Nanking and then stabbed them to death with his bayonet...just because they are both Japanese.

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ORIGINAL: mjk428
You keep repeating this and it's false. Morally there is definitely collective guilt. Germans that turned a blind eye to the death camps are guilty without ever having slaughtered anyone. Even legally, people are found guilty of crimes they didn't personally commit. If someone runs from the police and in the course of the chase the police kill an innocent bystander, the fugitive is charged with manslaugher/murder. Even if there was no crime committed to start the chain of events. Just a couple of examples. You may believe there is only individual guilt, but many others believe differently. And they've got precedent to back up their belief.

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Overwhelmingly the Japs during WW2 behaved horribly. Those that didn't commit atrocities by and large undoubtedly witnessed them - only the freshest conscripts could have remained innocent. You being such a proud lawyer, it's understandable why you're hung up on technicalities. But there is a point, and the Japs of WW2 went well past it, that a group earns a blanket label. For instance, you often hear negative comments about lawyers. Yet there obviously must be a couple of decent ones somewhere.

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Also, you seem to be able to assign collective guilt to the US without much difficulty. Comparing US internment camps to Axis camps - then weakly saying "not the death camps". Nice bait & switch. You even bring up the plight of the Indians. Although you seem to not realize/understand that it was Europeans that did 90% of the job on them. So that collective guilt assignment falls partially back on you.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Lets look at this one step at a time. First you say that there is collective guilt, that it is false to say that guilt is always individual. After that you go on to prove your point... but here something odd happens. To prove your point that guilt is not always individual, you list of examples where we are examining the individuals, their actions or inactions, and then based on that examination...of the individuals...we determine guilt or not.

For your theory to work, for guilt to be collective, you would have to show an example where the court has sentenced someone to something, without having tried that person individually. You will not succeed in that endeavor. You would need to dig up an example of where someone is guilty because, and only because, that someone is part of a group, and we have decided that all members of this group is guilty of something.

You will never find such reasoning or arguments like that in any legal proceedings. You claim that morally we can assign guilt based on collective, but the same applies there. Even if you want to claim that someone is guilty of something because of action or inaction, you are making an individual analysis of that individual.

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Same here. By saying that those who didnt commit/witness atrocities are guilty, you have made that individual trial of guilt. For your reasoning to work, you would need to skip that step.

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And if you think my "difference between concentration camps and extermination camps"-argument is weak, then by God take a look at your "it was not americans who did that...it was europeans (emigrated to america)".

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But you are a racist doggie.

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ORIGINAL: mjk428
The only point being that your statement "there is only individual guilt" is a belief of yours, not a fact. Legally, you're mostly correct. But even there, it's not so black & white. Morally, which is all that this discussion has ever been about, collective guilt is a time honored tradition.

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You may believe it's wrong, and I might agree that frequently it's applied undeservedly - that still doesn't make your statement true. It's a belief you have that not everyone shares. Just ask the citizens of Sodom & Gomorrah - oh wait, you can't.

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But that wasn't my point. The point was that when a group's behavior is so abysmal and becomes so prevalent all members of that group will "suffer" the consequences of a negative label. By and large Catholic priests harm no one, yet the horrible behavior of a distinct minority has tarnished the image of all of them. If someone on this forum were to make a negative statemnet about priests would you rise to defend priests and call the that person a bigot? I somehow doubt it. Yet you feel compelled to defend the mythical "good" Japanese soldier even when they were clearly a distinct minority.

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ORIGINAL: Doggie
We do have some stereotypes at work here. First is the smug, self rightous, sanctimonous Swede who asserts his moral superiority based on the fact his country has accomplished nothing for the past 600 years. "Harumphh. We intellectuals in Sweden did not debase ourselves by taking part in the unpleasantness of the 1940's. We simply provided the locomotives and rolling stock for the Wehrmacht and tranported them through "neutral" **snicker** Sweden so they could invade Norway. And we made a pile of Kroner selling war material to the nazis. But we didn't bomb anyone." Genuflect to us, oh ye inferior subhumans"

Sounds to me there's some individual guilt that should be assigned to 'neutrals" who bankrolled Nazi genocide without getting their hands dirty.

Then we got the typical liberal European college boy Pavolovian response of labeling anyone who does not recogize his obvious genetic and intellectual superiority as a "racist". That's not to mention the blatent hypocrisy of whining about "adhoms" from the stupid, racist, untermensch who are too ingorant to know how inferior they are.

Then we get the usual "irrelevant strawman" characterization from an "intellectual" who can not defend his original thesis and resorts to firing blunderbuss blasts about American internment camps, the American Indian wars, and how much Americans just suck in general, which is always what it's about, isn't it?

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Not content to rest on your complete ignorance of the disgracefull conduct of the Imperial Japanese armed forces, you then compound you embarrassment by displaying even further ignorance of the history of North American Indian Wars, and the fact that all nations in world war II operated internment camps, including morally superior Sweden. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a know it all to research some of the some subjects of his expertise and discover that only the Japanese who lived near west coast defense plants were interned, along with thousands of Germans and Italians, and none of them wound up shoveled in mass graves like the guests of the Emporer.

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It's also enlightening to learn that the Japanese qualify as a "race". I suppose the millions of Phillipinos, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese and other Asians who were allied with the Anglo American warmongers were also ignorant racists who did not appreciate how well they were treated by the benevolent Japanese.

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And you are an sanctomious, self rightous, elitist bigot. You jump on the "racist" bandwagon to legimatize your proclamations of moral superority and your contempt towards anyone who will not bow to your bigoted, revisionist version of world history. Here's a news flash, "Panzerjaeger", you aint a member of the master race. You are superior to no one.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Not really, at least not in the western civilization. As long as we have had a moral based on Christian values, we have had the fundamental idea that each man is responsible for his own actions. This is something at the very heart of Christianity. Jesus says "choose", which means that the individual has a choise, and will be judged based on his actions and his choises.

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That is the best example you can come up with regarding collective guilt? Why not the flood?

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There is one example of collective guilt from the 20th century, so you need not look so far back in time. However that example of collective guilt has been horribly critizised by pretty much everyone on both legal and moral grounds. If you think/read/google for a while, then maybe you can come up with the example I have in mind. Who knows.

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Of cource I would critizise anyone trying to tarnish a group of people with the collective guilt-brush. I would object to that regardless of whether the accused were japanese soldiers, catholic priests, moslem fundamentalists, rwandan militia, or whatever.

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ORIGINAL: mjk428
This isn't a legal proceeding nor is anyone's soul being judged. People make judgements all the time. I can make blanket statements against anyone I want. If I want to hate baseball players, I have that right. The judgements made in this thread were against a very specific group that in no way represents a race. The statements didn't even condemn an entire country - if you read the surrounding statements - and certainly not modern Japan. The judgement was on a group that earned their judgement by their actions. They even wore uniforms to identify themselves. That group also no longer exists. Yet you're outraged to the point of making personal attacks to defend the individuals of that historical group of thugs.

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Wow. Then I guess there is collective guilt afterall. Just because you think it wrong doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thanks for conceding the point. That was big of you!

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And yet you've had no trouble slinging mud at the US throughout this thread.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Heh, I say guilt is individual and never collective. I base that on legal tradition in all the major legal traditions, as well as morals, the idea is at the core of the western civilization. It is the basis of our laws, morals, philosophy. All our great thinkers througout the history of our civilization have arrived at the same point of view.

Against that we have you...a random internet poster. You claim that I am wrong, that guilt is not individual but collective. Your basis for this statement is "because I say so".

When I object to racial predjudice (All japanese were savages who smelled) you interpret that to be a defence of wrongdoings. Now, here is where you fail. You seem to fail to understand that it is possible to object to a behavior (racism by doggie) without expressing sympathy for, condoning or defending the warcrimes committed by members of the ethnical group he attacks.

And, of cource, you yourself have now jumped on the same bandwaggon. They (being "the japanese armed forces" presumably) earned his racism. Here you make the same logical fallacy, taking the actions of some, and using them to judge everyone, regardless of individual actions or inactions.

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Two things can be deducted from this reply of yours
a) you did not understand what I was saying,
b) you have no idea what example I was talking about

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I have given examples of wrongdoings committed by the US. At no point in time have I ever tried to use these examples to make broad generalizations about all americans. Again it would seem that you dont really know what this discussion is about.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Of cource I can make a distinction between German, US and Japanese concentration camps. Do you know the difference between a concentration camp and an extermination camp btw? Judging from your hysteria it seems unlikely.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess?

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Wow...lots of text about nothing. Does it feel better now? Feel free to keep dancing around the real issues and questions and keep posting pointless drivel.

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All without being a racist.

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At some point, especially if the group is small enough, it's easy to get most people to agree with a negative stereotype. For instance, all SS members. It's pretty safe to condemn that group in today's world. KKK members? Even better, not many will rise up to defend them.

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Thrice weekly Nazi troops avoid the dangers of coastal sea transport by traveling overland through Sweden from Storlien farther north to Riksgränsen. But most galling of all are the two "Reichswehr special" trains, sealed and guarded by Swedish soldiers, packed each day with 1,000 German troops being relieved at Oslo and replaced by fresh troops from Germany. The sight of well-fed Germans hanging out of train windows, yoohooing at Swedish girls, and carrying packages of food, butter and herrings out of starving Oslo is almost too much to stomach. So much public pressure has built up that a secret session of the Riksdag last week was reported to have considered means of ending the traffic. That problem was the key to the diplomacy by which Sweden has survived so far: by judging when to make concessions—willingly to the Allies,* under pressure to the Germans.

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ORIGINAL: Sarge
Nice try suit

But when you put the US in the category as Germany and Japan concentration camps you bait a reply.

Again you express you total lack of a grasp on real history

1) US had Interment camps

2) Germans had a camp for every everyone

3) Japan had camps of extermination of sub human slaves that no longer could work.

You have done nothing but make accusations of racism while expressing a delusional perception at best of what is common historical knowledge for war gamers.

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ORIGINAL: Doggie
Hmmm, I believe it was you who couldn't defend his position about what swell guys the Japanese were and started dancing around slinging mud in all directions.

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But I can see where you might think people who actually accomplished something, like liberating the Phillipines from mass murdering rapists in Japanese uniforms, are morally inferior to people who make their living chasing ambulances.

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Well of course, proud specimen of Aryan superiority that you are. And a graduate of law school as well. Perfectly qualified to sit in judgement of a mongrel race such as Americans. It's all that pure white bread blue eyed blonde blood flowing through your veins that makes you superior to us untermensch, aint it?

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But you will. Never met a socialist yet that didn't adore mass murdering thugs. Bet ya got a paki scarf and a poster of Yassar Arafat up in your den to show your solidarity with the poor and oppressed.

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Thrice weekly Nazi troops blah blah.

Hey, with a proud history of sniveling and groveling such as that, it's no wonder you see yourself as a member of the master race, morally and intellectually superior to those stupid racist marines on Iwo Jima.

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

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Quote Doggie
...Bet ya got a paki scarf...

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ORIGINAL: Sarge

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ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

Ok then, link up this untold story of Japanese troops showing compassion for POW’s ,or any story for that matter showing Japanese troops in WWII expressing companion towards the sub-human Allies.