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Superstar salary demands - 11/17/2007 9:23:56 PM

QuikSand

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I am into my first offseason, and was a little surprised to notice my league's reigning MVP sitting available as a free agent. Not absurd, it could happen. So, I took a look -- 31 year old outfielder coming off a .325 season with 48 HRs... wow, he would really help my team (of course). So, I braced myself for a massive ARodian contract demand -- presumably a guy of this caliber is going to expect, and command a salary that is easily 10 or 20 times that of a replacement-level player...

But apparently not. Stud guy in the prime of his career, in my default setup, is asking for about $700K per season, which looks to me to be maybe 2 or 3 times what a very average guy is asking for (like my old catcher, a guy who hit .255 with 9 HR - he's seeking about $280K per year).

Am I missing something here? Why on earth would I want to sign three bums, when I can sign one baseball deity for the same amount? If all my opposing AI teams sit by and let me sign this stud for something like $900K, then why on earth would I do anything but load up with a handful of superstar players, fill in with whatever marginal types I have to, and go with that? (I already see that the players who fill up my lower minors can make either peanuts of $50-150K per year... so I apparently can clear out enough salary space for a superstar by economizing there, which just seems absurd)

Again... am I missing something? (I sure hope so)

Post #: 1

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/17/2007 9:36:05 PM

KG Erwin

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Immaterial, perhaps, but I hold a negative view of the entire financial setup in PS. I don't use it. The reasons are personal, too, as I'm a tax auditor in the real world. I don't wanna turn into a CPA in the game.

(in reply to QuikSand)

Post #: 2

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/17/2007 9:40:17 PM

QuikSand

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Just a quick update... the superstar player just signed with me for about $930K per year... accepting my offer in the very first week (maybe I gave him too much money, even).

On my 20-point scale, I see him as a 20 in contact hitting, a 20 in power hitting, and 15 in eye... decent defensively in RF, and he's the reigning league MVP and OBP leader with an OPS of just over 1.000.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 3

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/18/2007 4:35:04 AM

StefanG

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Doesn't sound like the same issue, but I notice what I think is a bug (at least in fictional player leagues). Superstar salary demands drop from ~8-15 mil / year to about 300k - 900k / year if you wait until after the free agent signing period, but prior to start of season. There is a window of time after the free agent signing period, but prior to "finalize roster" that has a crazy drop in salary demands from free agents.

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Post #: 4

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/18/2007 4:51:39 AM

Nukester

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We just went through something like that in the XIBL. It seems that once Spring Training was simmed, the contract demands went back to normal. Before ST, there were some really good players asking for next to nothing. After ST they all raised their price to reasonable levels

< Message edited by Nukester -- 11/18/2007 4:52:54 AM >

(in reply to StefanG)

Post #: 5

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/18/2007 5:39:13 AM

KG Erwin

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Even with finances turned off, the trading period is available only AFTER Spring Training. I think this was done for the benefit of the AI routines. That's OK with me.

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Post #: 6

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/20/2007 4:39:21 PM

QuikSand

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So, is the general consensus that this game is just unworkable with finances turned on? That it just won't work for what I want to play -- a sim where I just run a team, have to make intelligent decisions about signing/trading players, and manage my roster each season?

That's fine, if all this game amounts to is a historical sim or a no-finances sim. I won't waste my time with it, since that isn't what I want to play, personally.

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Post #: 7

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/20/2007 8:20:30 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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Quik,

I play with finances on. Frankly, I haven't found a problem yet that relates to what you're specifying. I see players' asking prices start low, and after having a great season they get greedy. As they get older and production begins to dwindle, so does their asking price. Sometimes will you find bargains? Yes, of course. I'm currently paying my pitching ace less than my #2 guy. My #2 guy simply wanted more and wouldn't settle. Fortunately, my #1 was loyal and reasonable and didn't require such a high dollar.

I agree that seeing an MVP with that level of performance sitting in the Free Agent pool rather bizarre. However, perhaps there are other factors involved that you just don't see? Maybe the AI didn't see a need for him, perhaps they have someone suitable already filling that position? Perhaps a team was more focused on getting starting pitching than offensive help? Perhaps a team simply cannot afford him? You must remember that this is AI, "artificial". It's not perfect, flawless and thinking outside of the box as we may do. Where you might dump a GREAT first baseman for an AMAZING one just because he's available, the AI team might not contemplate that as an option.

Several seasons ago, I had my eye on another team's player. The guy was an offensive powerhouse and I saw a lot of potential in him (literally, not noting the actual value of the stat at the time). However, he was a catcher- and I didn't need a catcher. He was eligible for free agency at the end of the year and I swiped him. I was satisfied with my starting catcher and using this guy as a backup would have been a waste, so I instead put him at 2nd base; a position that I was very weak in. Sure, that's outlandish- putting a natural catcher at 2nd base. He had a horrible 1st year defensively but his output was worth it. After enough games he was qualified as a 2nd baseman, but he was never a Gold Glove contender and never made the ranks of defensive elites. However, I got what I wanted by applying an unorthodox approach. The game's AI would not have done that. If they needed a 2nd baseman, they would have looked for one and not chosen a catcher. I'm just trying to point out how what you see isn't always what the other teams see.

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Post #: 8

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/20/2007 9:54:32 PM

QuikSand

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Maybe I'm being unclear.

I agree, it's strange but not absurd that the MVP is a free agent.

What I am offended by is the fact that he is only looking for a salary of roughly twice what a replacement-level player is asking for. Why on earth would I sign a barely-good-enough guy for $300K when I could sign a superstar for $700K? That is patently absurd, and I honestly can't understand how playing this game as a finances-based sim can possibly work if this is representative of how the player valuation system works.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 9

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/20/2007 11:02:40 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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Quik!

Okay, now I understand. Your focus wasn't on WHY he was a free agent as much as how much he's asking for. If you don't mind, could you go into his player card and let me know how his ratings have changed since last year? I wonder if he's asking for less because of a drastic drop in stats during the off season? I've seen players go from OUTSTANDING one year to BLAH the next... and most likely their expected salaries followed suit.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

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(in reply to QuikSand)

Post #: 10

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 12:25:54 AM

StefanG

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No, there is a bug in finances currently (or at least I hope its a bug), that apparently hasn't been communicated very clearly. I'll try:

Player X is a superstar with awesome stats, has a great final year of his contract. I look into a contract extension, but my budget just can't afford his $16mil price tag, so I let him go into the free agent pool. Beginning of next year comes around, I conclude the amateur draft, and enter the free agent draft. Sure, enough there he is asking for his $16mil / year salary (everything is ok at this point). Free agent draft concludes, I'm ready to "Finalize Rosters" prior to spring training; however, I'm short a couple of players, so I go into "Sign Players" and there is my superstar (not picked up during free agency, which is understandable due to his price tag); however, now he is only asking for $300k / year as is everyone that didn't get picked up during free agency (not exactly $300k, but everyone is asking for a fraction of what they were asking). So, of course I picked him, as several other teams also take advantage of the "bargains". After I "Finalize Rosters", complete Spring Training, available player salaries are back up to the normal salaries - no more bargains.

I would expect salaries to drop for any player who doesn't have a contract for the season, but not to league minimum. I suppose its hard to simulate what would happen in real-life (as the demand keeps up with supply), unlike my fictional league of 20 teams with a pool of players to support ~32 teams. If this is intentional, then it gives the human owner an advantage over the computer owner, because I can plan for the bargains and leave a couple of empty slots, knowing I'll get a few gems.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 11

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 12:49:02 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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Okay, yeah. That makes much more sense. I confess that I haven't noticed that detail only because I don't leave an Amateur & Free Agent Draft short any number of players. I normally fill up, so I don't typically have a need to look for people.

So to be sure I understand this correctly, you notice this AFTER the Free Agent signing period is over but BEFORE Finalizing Rosters?

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 3:09:50 AM

modred

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The AI has problems in filling their rosters with mediocre players and leaving starting caliber players on the free agent list. It seems to make too many offers too early to mediocre guys who accept before the star makes up his mind.

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Post #: 13

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 3:00:29 PM

puresimmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuikSand

So, is the general consensus that this game is just unworkable with finances turned on? That it just won't work for what I want to play -- a sim where I just run a team, have to make intelligent decisions about signing/trading players, and manage my roster each season?

That's fine, if all this game amounts to is a historical sim or a no-finances sim. I won't waste my time with it, since that isn't what I want to play, personally.

Absolutely not, I spend a lot of time focusing on this aspect of the game. Of course it is the most complex aspect to balance. Maybe there is some issue causing his demand to be so low.

This is an area I am spending a lot of time on right now so you have perfect timing. What exact setup are you using? I'll try and re-create the exact issue.

Shaun

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 3:51:21 PM

Nukester

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Just to confirm what Quicksand and StefanG are saying, in the XIBL we concluded the amatuer draft and went into fa signings. After fa signings there were a bunch of high caliber players that didnt get picked up (I dont know why but Im guessing their price tags were too high). When looking at those players, their contract demands were very very very low at this point. Either after "Finalizing rosters" or during the first week of the season, those players demands went back up to normal

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Post #: 15

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 4:20:32 PM

Cavy

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Shaun, we have also noticed another bug in the financial system in the XIBL. We have a situation where players were signed during the free agent period for much greater than market value. Immediately following free agency, the player's contracted was extended, which influences his current contract value as well! The player was signed at $9.5mil/season for 2 years in free agency (asking price was ~$7.5mil). Afterwords, he was extended for 1 year at $7.5mil, but this adjusted the entire contract to a 3-year $22.5mil deal. It leads to GMs being able to steal top players in free agency by signing them WAY above market value because they know they can reduce the salary later by extending the contract, which re-adjusts the entire contract to market value.

As a side note, since we're on the subject of financials, I think a feature should be added that allows you to offer a player less than his asking price (or market value). As of now, you can only offer him 0% or 100% of his asking price. In reality, players will sign for lower than market value if that's the best offer they get... I think this would help eliminate quality players being left in the FA pool after the free agent period. I also think that it may help if a player goes unsigned in Free Agency if he lowers his asking price by 25-50% to allow him to be signed. Right now you run into issues where players are still available but asking $6+ mil a season (our cap is $100mil) and teams are already near the cap as it is. This may be a little more true to life where players reduce their asking price if no one signs them in the offseason.

(in reply to Nukester)

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 5:27:53 PM

QuikSand

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Just to clarify -- it sounds like other people are focusing on the period *after* the FA stages have been run, where good players inexplicably drop their demands.

My situation is totally different... in my league, a stuperstar player in the very first stage of free agency was only asking for about 2.5 X the contract that a replacement-level player was asking for. This is a *massive* problem in a financially-driven sim, though I'm hoping that maybe this is a relic of something unusual i did with my own team's setup. (See below)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer
Absolutely not, I spend a lot of time focusing on this aspect of the game. Of course it is the most complex aspect to balance. Maybe there is some issue causing his demand to be so low.

This is an area I am spending a lot of time on right now so you have perfect timing. What exact setup are you using? I'll try and re-create the exact issue.

Shaun

Shaun, if it would help, I'd be glad to email you my saved game file. Otherwise, I guess I need some guidance on what "setup" information you're looking for. I can tell you that I created my league using the QuickStart option, it has 10 teams in two divisions, use ratings scaled from 1-20, and I think I used a scale of 20% for my salary structure when I set it up (I don't see how to go and check these settings in the game, but this is my best recollection of what I used). Not sure what other information might be useful that I can extract from the game.

Hope this is helpful in your sleuthing.

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 5:51:40 PM

puresimmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuikSand

Shaun, if it would help, I'd be glad to email you my saved game file. Otherwise, I guess I need some guidance on what "setup" information you're looking for. I can tell you that I created my league using the QuickStart option, it has 10 teams in two divisions, use ratings scaled from 1-20, and I think I used a scale of 20% for my salary structure when I set it up (I don't see how to go and check these settings in the game, but this is my best recollection of what I used). Not sure what other information might be useful that I can extract from the game.

Hope this is helpful in your sleuthing.

Hey Quick, thanks. I am deep in this code right now in next year's version, but I think I'll also back-port my changes into PS 2007 and release it as a patch.

BTW, what is happening is the players are reducing their salary demands if teams are getting a little too close to their internal budgetary thresholds, and weeks pass in free agency with them remaining unsigned. It looks like in some cases it is way too much of a reduction (say after backing off their demands for 3 weeks in a row). If you are the tweaking type, I think you can play with this a bit on your end.

In the puresim.xml file there are entries tagged as REDUCE_SAL_DEMAND_FREE_AGENT_PERIOD there is one entry for each of the 16 weeks in the free agency phase. Basically, that is a base multiplier fed to an internal reduction algorithm. So, if a player determines he is willing to back off a little bit in a given week, the AI will lookup the week in that table and apply the appropriate multiple to their current ask algorithm. For example, if you changed them all to "1" then players would barely ever reduce their demands.

I think the curve is just a bit too steep, but there are a lot of other factors in play in this code (bidding wars, small vvs. large market teams skweing AI assumptions, avoiding teams running out of cash on the hard cap, avoiding having to sign scrubs, trying to avoid the case of superstars remaining unsigned etc..)

Anyway, you should be able to dial the effect back significantly by tweaking those values to be higher multiples.

Hope that helps, and I think I am getting close to an even better solution... I'll let you guys know if it ends up being practical to back-port it into PS 2007 as long as you promise to buy next year's version, that is (just kidding!)

Shaun

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Post #: 18

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 5:58:42 PM

Cavy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuikSand

in my league, a stuperstar player in the very first stage of free agency was only asking for about 2.5 X the contract that a replacement-level player was asking for. This is a *massive* problem in a financially-driven sim, though I'm hoping that maybe this is a relic of something unusual i did with my own team's setup.

In our league, it does seem like a player's market value is set only by the players ratings, and not performance. But in your case QuikSand, you have a player with great stats AND great ratings... he should be demanding a huge salary...

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 6:11:58 PM

puresimmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cavy

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuikSand

in my league, a stuperstar player in the very first stage of free agency was only asking for about 2.5 X the contract that a replacement-level player was asking for. This is a *massive* problem in a financially-driven sim, though I'm hoping that maybe this is a relic of something unusual i did with my own team's setup.

In our league, it does seem like a player's market value is set only by the players ratings, and not performance. But in your case QuikSand, you have a player with great stats AND great ratings... he should be demanding a huge salary...

Past performance is absolutely a contributor to the demands, but I'll have a look and see if the correlation to ratings is too strong..

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 6:14:54 PM

puresimmer

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BTW, for those willing to do the tweak I suggested to Quick,

I did a quick little Google spreadsheet with some values that seem a little more reasonable.
Have a look at the sheet here

They start getting nervous around week 4, chill out a bit and then around week 10 it drops a good bit more. In this scenario a $12mm guy will never get below half his original demand.

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 6:19:42 PM

Cavy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

Past performance is absolutely a contributor to the demands, but I'll have a look and see if the correlation to ratings is too strong..

Is there anything in the XML file that allows you to adjust what a player demands based on performance? I know each player does an internal rating out of 100, but can how they make this internal rating be adjusted?

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Post #: 22

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 6:41:25 PM

PadresFan104

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

BTW, for those willing to do the tweak I suggested to Quick,

I did a quick little Google spreadsheet with some values that seem a little more reasonable.
Have a look at the sheet here

They start getting nervous around week 4, chill out a bit and then around week 10 it drops a good bit more. In this scenario a $12mm guy will never get below half his original demand.

Shaun - that looks good, and I have a follow-up question.

Use the fictional player from your spreadsheet as an example. Can I assume that if I know that the CPU Controlled team can't afford the $12m price tag, I can simply wait it out and get the player in Week 16? Or will the CPU be smart enough to try and juggle it's finances (maybe through trades or dumping payroll), in order to get a player they may need?

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Post #: 23

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 6:42:34 PM

QuikSand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

BTW, for those willing to do the tweak I suggested to Quick,

I did a quick little Google spreadsheet with some values that seem a little more reasonable.
Have a look at the sheet here

They start getting nervous around week 4, chill out a bit and then around week 10 it drops a good bit more. In this scenario a $12mm guy will never get below half his original demand.

Thanks for the response, Shaun.

I hope that the efforts to "clarify" my issue on my behalf have not gotten the issue too confused. It does sound like the week-by-week reduction of player demands may be an issue, too, but it's a separable one from the one I am raising. (I don't really have a bone to pick with the data in your spreadsheet, that seems like a reasonable schedule for drop-off to me)

The essential question is, where should the bidding START for a very good player? If a replacement-level player who basically just becomes a "passable major leaguer" demands and received a contract for X dollars, what should a top-tier star with great ratings and great statistical history demand as a free agent? And what should teams be willing to pay for that sort of player? I'd suggest that the right range might be in the 10X - 20X range, but in my game I'm seeing that looking more like 2X-3X. That is the problem, as clearly as I can state it.

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Post #: 24

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 7:00:53 PM

puresimmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuikSand

quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

BTW, for those willing to do the tweak I suggested to Quick,

I did a quick little Google spreadsheet with some values that seem a little more reasonable.
Have a look at the sheet here

They start getting nervous around week 4, chill out a bit and then around week 10 it drops a good bit more. In this scenario a $12mm guy will never get below half his original demand.

Thanks for the response, Shaun.

I hope that the efforts to "clarify" my issue on my behalf have not gotten the issue too confused. It does sound like the week-by-week reduction of player demands may be an issue, too, but it's a separable one from the one I am raising. (I don't really have a bone to pick with the data in your spreadsheet, that seems like a reasonable schedule for drop-off to me)

The essential question is, where should the bidding START for a very good player? If a replacement-level player who basically just becomes a "passable major leaguer" demands and received a contract for X dollars, what should a top-tier star with great ratings and great statistical history demand as a free agent? And what should teams be willing to pay for that sort of player? I'd suggest that the right range might be in the 10X - 20X range, but in my game I'm seeing that looking more like 2X-3X. That is the problem, as clearly as I can state it.

If you create a brand new league, with all the defaults, there should be a pretty decent disparity (5x-8x a replacement player). I was just surmising that the FA period reductions led to the disparity being smaller.

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 7:19:20 PM

QuikSand

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Is it your guess that my selection of the 20% salary guage is the cause of the problem? (And if so, how does that make any sense? SHouldn't that just cause everything to be contracted by a factor of 0.2?)

Anyway, I'll give it a go, thanks. *shurg*

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Post #: 26

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 7:26:19 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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I've got a question from out in left field. Is a $12-million caliber player really willing to cut their salary demands in 1/2? I don't have fancy references and historical and financial statistics to back my point up, I'm just approaching this from what I think a player's perspective is. Granted, if you're dangling 12-mil bait and no one's biting, you're going to tone things down a bit. But, by about 47%? That's pretty extreme if you ask me. I know that greed factors into the XML so cockiness can't be far behind.

Again, this is just my opinion. It's not a complaint, just an observation.

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Post #: 27

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 7:26:44 PM

puresimmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuikSand

Is it your guess that my selection of the 20% salary guage is the cause of the problem?� (And if so, how does that make any sense?� SHouldn't that just cause everything to be contracted by a factor of 0.2?)

Anyway, I'll give it a go, thanks.� *shurg*

No that 20% should have nothing to do with it. It works exactly like you are assuming, all salaries are scaled down proportionately.

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Post #: 28

RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 8:21:18 PM

QuikSand

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Tried to use a PM, Shaun, but your inbox is full/disabled...

Apparently my view of "default" is unworkable in this game. Maybe I shoudl take the hint here, but I do want to help with this if I can.

Here's what i am choosing when I start a new league:

-Use a PureSim 2007 ready-made template (other options on that page get grayed out)
-I select Fictional MLB template

-I pick my team
-I select that I want to "generate a new pool and run draft"

-Get message that league needs to upgrade, I accept, it works quickly

And now, I'm at the "Home" page of a league with no players at all, having run no draft. I can't see any instructions telling me this is an illegal setup, but I guess it is.

Can you guide me on what you mean by "all the dafaults" above?

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RE: Superstar salary demands - 11/21/2007 8:32:12 PM

Nukester

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I think that I should add that in Cavy and myselfs case, with the online league, we are still using version 1.51. Im not sure if that would make a difference with what we are experiencing

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Post #: 30