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Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 6:31:52 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		How come through the game my hundreds of saved game files are all visible in the Advanced Tactics\bin\savedgames directory, but when I look at that directory through Windows Vista Explorer it shows it as empty (Even when allowing for hidden and system files)?

How does one go about maintaining the directory and, more importantly, emailing someone else a PBEM game save file??

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:06:05 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		Windows Vista Ultimate through Windows Explorer:





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Veldor -- 11/23/2007 7:07:42 AM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:10:56 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		Here you can see them all listed in game:





Attachment (1)

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:13:29 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Obviously Vista is finding the files somewhere when you load and save the game. Have you checked the default installation path? It looks like you might have changed from the default when you installed. It should be C:\Matrix Games\Advanced Tactics\bin\savedgames. Maybe that directory still exists and is where your games are? Alternately, when you load a saved game, look at the path that should be displayed by the explorer dialogue.

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:15:52 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Oops, cross-posted there. Did you try to use the Up one level button, to see where this saved games folder really resides?

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:27:45 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		How do I change the default savedgames path under Vista for AT?

< Message edited by Veldor -- 11/23/2007 7:29:41 AM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:32:24 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		Compare the screenshot below to the one above they are the same paths (machine names removed for security)




Attachment (1)

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:36:15 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		Furthermore, if I try to cut the file from the AT load window and paste in elsewhere in windows explorer, it gives this error:
All the savedgames play just fine through AT though.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Veldor -- 11/23/2007 7:37:16 AM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:54:51 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

How do I change the default savedgames path under Vista for AT?

I don't know if you can. What I was referring to was the path that you installed the game into. You changed it from the default C:\Matrix Games\Advanced Tactics\...directory to one that resides in C:\Program Files\Games\...

I don't use Vista, myself, but I've heard that Vista doesn't make it easy for users to change files in the Program Files directory. Try looking in your My Documents folder and see if there is a folder in there called "My Games". Your saved games may be in a sub-folder within there.

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 8:03:47 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

How do I change the default savedgames path under Vista for AT?

I don't know if you can. What I was referring to was the path that you installed the game into. You changed it from the default C:\Matrix Games\Advanced Tactics\...directory to one that resides in C:\Program Files\Games\...

I don't use Vista, myself, but I've heard that Vista doesn't make it easy for users to change files in the Program Files directory. Try looking in your My Documents folder and see if there is a folder in there called "My Games". Your saved games may be in a sub-folder within there.


Again please look at the screenshots. They tell the whole story. In all cases I am using and looking at the same directory.

There is no issue with Program Files on Vista. In fact it is a Microsoft Requirement for the better part of a decade for all software developers to install into that path not their own made up one. You can't even be a developer partner with MS without adhering to that. And NO other software makers, game designers etc that I know of break this rule except Matrix. All other files and directories are fine, just not the savedgame folder. I have not experienced this problem with any other product including Matrix ones.

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 8:14:20 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry...just grasping at a few straws here. This is the first time that I've seen this problem listed, and the things that are different from my setup are that you changed your default installation path, and are using Vista. Thus, my suggestions were investigating along those lines, and where Windows might drop things. Good luck.

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 8:57:52 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Sorry...just grasping at a few straws here. This is the first time that I've seen this problem listed, and the things that are different from my setup are that you changed your default installation path, and are using Vista. Thus, my suggestions were investigating along those lines, and where Windows might drop things. Good luck.


I appreciate the help JAMiAM. I was hoping to see if Matrix would admit to already knowing about this (Hard for me to believe they still don't test their games thoroughly and to MS industry standards). But I don't want to take up anyone elses time as I was intending to play along for the Matrix response only. It might be useful to point out I have extensive knowledge on these sort of topics and am a highly paid technology consultant with almost two dozen different IT certifications for my day job. I do typically play more the end-user here because no one likes a know-it-all. However, I am sufficiently frustrated now that I cannot help but point out these things and try to call Matrix out.

The fact is here they are claiming a game runs on Vista when it really doesn't fully. A game should install to a path that is Vista Friendly, which would be something like C:\Program Files\Matrix Games\Advanced Tactics. And in fact it actually shouldn't even do that. It should make the proper program calls to determine where that directory actually is and what its called and then install under that. Then there are other calls for enduser data. A user could then change these paths if desired.

The fact is ANYONE out there should know how to do these BASIC BASIC things for Windows Vista Programming.

Yet I'm going to guess they haven't a clue, my saved game files are in Vista's Virtual Store where I cannot get access to them.

Had matrix adhered to even XP industry standards of installing to the Program Files directory, this would not be an issue for me as the programming problem would have been discovered even during the poorest of playtesting exercises. Therefore I have to pardon all Matrix Developers here and blame Matrix themselves as they are the ones who enforce the errant install directory policy (Though I'm amazed if not one of their developers has attended a Vista Programming course / read a Vista Programming Book etc. but hey I guess its only been out a whole year now!)

Get with the times Matrix! Adhere to industry standards or remove your statement about supporting Windows Vista on your games!


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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 9:11:31 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Other game makers DO in fact make their own directories. Not just Matrix, further there is no reason they shouldn't except for MS being lazy bastards and not wanting to support it.

In windows XP I have no trouble finding and starting games without them being in the Programs tree. They still show just fine under the command for programs in the start up window. Though if the game does not auto make a desktop short cut for me I make my own.

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 9:37:50 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Other game makers DO in fact make their own directories. Not just Matrix, further there is no reason they shouldn't except for MS being lazy bastards and not wanting to support it.

In windows XP I have no trouble finding and starting games without them being in the Programs tree. They still show just fine under the command for programs in the start up window. Though if the game does not auto make a desktop short cut for me I make my own.


Hating Microsoft or calling them lazy bastards doesn't change industry standards. Creating standards is a responsible thing for a company like Microsoft to do as it leads to less problems with their Operating System and the software that installs on it. Please list a game maker of any notoriety that still makes their own directory by default under the root of the C-Drive. As I stated before it is against their rules and any contractual agreement with them/partnership/use of their logos etc. all require that you follow a few basic protocols and standards they set forth. Outside of that its still the standard.

No the irony here isn't that the game can't be found or started when not under the Programs tree, its that if you should elect to put it in the proper place yourself that it in fact does not fully work.

That should be laughable to anyone in the biz IMHO. Damned for following rules and knowing too much...

Also damned for assuming Vista support meant FULL vista support.

In the interim (while Matrix hopefully explores the truth of all that I've said above) I would like to ask the developer(s) to please allow the default savegame location to be changed. I can obviously manually switch directories each time I save, but aside from being of some annoyance and effort, should I forget even one time, I will lose access to the savegame file to email, have to reply the entire turn, and likely be flagged a cheater not just in game but in these forums.



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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 10:29:11 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Sory to hear about your troubles Veldor.

Anybody else with Vista reading this thread?

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 11:07:30 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Sory to hear about your troubles Veldor.

Anybody else with Vista reading this thread?


I guarantee you can replicate the exact issue easily with any Vista Machine by installing to any custom path under Program Files. Not that you have any reason to listen to me, but I would seriously recommend developing any future software using Vista (And therefore upgrade your current development machine to Vista as well ASAP).

Really, as I've said in other threads, you'll never learn the Vista issues if you don't live and breath Vista day and night. And we will all be running Vista either way eventually.

It would be nice to be able to edit the default save location (even if it has to be done outside the GUI) until such a time, if ever, the actual problem itself is fixed..





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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 11:44:25 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		@Veldor,

I hear you. And if this is the worst Vista issue it aint that horrible, though admittidly very annoying. And i will buy a Vista machine next to my XP machine for my next release.

Reading you correctly it seems though that the location of the installation is the issue.

Could it be an option to reinstall the game? but then install it in the Program Files directory?

Kind regards,
Vic

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Post #: 17
RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 1:34:35 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Veldor,

We'll check into this - as far as the installation path, yes Microsoft has recommended /Program Files for years, but using a different one has never been an issue (apparently until Vista). Frankly, we've found Vista to be annoying in more than a few respects, not the least of which are incompatibilities or bugs cause because Microsoft either left out something harmless that was in XP or just arbitrarily changed how they dealt with something. We're working to make sure we have full compatibility in the future.

We have one Vista test system which we check all our new releases on, we'll double check this issue there and resolve it together with Vic if we can.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 2:47:18 PM   
MrMox

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Isn't this just a case of File Virtualization? http://www.hanselman.com/blog/VistasShowCompatibilityFilesAndTheScrumptiousWonderThatIsFileVirtualization.aspx

@Veldor: Have you tried to click on "Compatibility Files" in Windows Explorer?

@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it...

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 3:18:37 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox

...
@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it...



I'm not moving to Vista until the bitter end and nothing "They" can do will speed that process up. Get used to it Vista sucks for gaming...

Keep up the good work Matrix!

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 5:39:25 PM   
LarryP


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From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox

@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it...


If Vista is so grand, then Dell would not be offering Vista or XP as choices. When XP came out, you could NOT order a PC built with W98. I think a lot of gamers that bought Vista will go back to XP. I put Vista down there with the Millenium edition.

< Message edited by LarryP -- 11/23/2007 5:43:16 PM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 6:00:32 PM   
MrMox

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You're missing the point. I'm not arguing which is better. I'm just making the observation that Vista's market share is going to increase and XP's market share similarly is going to decrease. Sure, XP may hold a significant share at the moment, and a lot of people may stay with XP for a long time to come, but bottom line is that you shouldn't hedge your business on XP and ignore Vista, unless you want to see your customer base dwindle over time.


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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 6:43:20 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox

Isn't this just a case of File Virtualization? http://www.hanselman.com/blog/VistasShowCompatibilityFilesAndTheScrumptiousWonderThatIsFileVirtualization.aspx

Thanks. I had a feeling that was what the issue was, but I couldn't remember exactly what it was. Again, not being an early adopter of Vista, I saw the problem listed on some tech site, and simply made a brief mental note of it, rather than committing it to memory.

I guess at this point, if I were to gloat and be petty, this would call for a well-deserved "I told you so..."...

Good thing I would never do that...

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 6:45:36 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox
@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it...


Ford salesmen said the same thing about the Edsel. Fortunately though, Ford never had anything close to the same level of monopoly that Microsoft has over the PC OS market, and the consumers proved them wrong.


< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 11/23/2007 6:46:13 PM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 7:22:50 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
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From: Carson City, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing which is better. I'm just making the observation that Vista's market share is going to increase and XP's market share similarly is going to decrease. Sure, XP may hold a significant share at the moment, and a lot of people may stay with XP for a long time to come, but bottom line is that you shouldn't hedge your business on XP and ignore Vista, unless you want to see your customer base dwindle over time.


I never missed your point, I inderstood you entirely. I was just bringing another issue to light, which is I believe Vista will fall back like ME did and XP will continue to be the choice like W98 also did.

You are very much correct in saying that a company like Matrix better make room for Vista. I would never disagree with that. I wasn't trying to argue in the first place, never would.

Case in point:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1623301

< Message edited by LarryP -- 11/23/2007 7:28:26 PM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 8:30:49 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		@ Everyone, I understood there are workarounds and/or bandaids to this issue. Not to mention the simplest of which is to reinstall the game into a non Program Files path (Though I haven't tried it I'm positive it would work). That's not the point.

The point is those are all things I should have to do for a Windows XP game not stated to be Vista Compatible. I wouldn't complain then and I have dealt with all of the above items for other games and applications as I've been running Vista for over a year now on all 4 of my machines.

But again, really here I just want to harp on the Matrix default installation path. Had it been correct, this issue however major or minor would have been caught, and users would be free to install the game anywhere default or otherwise without error.



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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 8:44:00 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hey Veldor,

We'll check into this - as far as the installation path, yes Microsoft has recommended /Program Files for years, but using a different one has never been an issue (apparently until Vista).

Yes, it has been the recommendation since Windows 95 which was over a decade ago.
But to be clear, using a different installation path other than /Program Files, isn't actually a problem with Vista. It's only a problem because then your not forced to test compatibility with where Applications and Games are supposed to go. Installing into that directory (/Program Files) is actually then the problem for some of your games. My new machines have one gigantic C-Drive and I install everything to /Program Files since thats where 99% of it installs to begin with. It also keeps the root tidy instead of having hundreds of vendor directories there.
quote:


Frankly, we've found Vista to be annoying in more than a few respects, not the least of which are incompatibilities or bugs cause because Microsoft either left out something harmless that was in XP or just arbitrarily changed how they dealt with something. We're working to make sure we have full compatibility in the future.

The best way to achieve that, IMHO, is to develop the games on Vista. Backwards compatibility between Vista and XP is far far easier than forwards compatibility from XP to Vista. This is furthermore the case because many of your developers (I know of at least one) are already using tools that are technically obsolete from an XP standpoint so the likelihood of error is even greater then. By running development software and packaging tools made for Vista you maximize compatibility.
quote:


We have one Vista test system which we check all our new releases on, we'll double check this issue there and resolve it together with Vic if we can.

In a perfect world the developers would each have their own Vista test system.


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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 9:00:54 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart
I'm not moving to Vista until the bitter end and nothing "They" can do will speed that process up. Get used to it Vista sucks for gaming...

Keep up the good work Matrix!


You do realize I'm mostly nit-picking here. I've never thought Vista sucks for gaming. That is an attitude mostly held by those that don't run it and unless you've actually tried it your just further propagating a baseless statement. There was an initial learning curve but now there are at least a dozen things I love about Vista that make it impossible for me to ever go back to XP. I run hundreds of games and applications on Vista just fine.

The issues here don't really affect my ability to RUN the game and certainly aren't stability related. They are simply annoyances that extend even to other areas like inability to easily browse to the files, search for the files, backup the files through certain methods, etc. I do think a program stated to be compatible should allow me to install to the PF dir and still have those 3 functions work as normal.

@ Anyone: If you take any of this as further proof to stay away from Vista, or even to not purchase Advanced Tactics if you run Vista, then you are seriously misreading the thread IMHO and missing out on what has rapidly become my most favorite game.

It'd be interesting to know what percentage of Matrix Customers run Vista currently. I somehow have the feeling not that many, though I do think its much more prevelant out in the rest of the world than some wish to admit.

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 9:27:31 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Veldor,

You are probably more right than I am and probably even more qualified than I am to comment properly on these things. What I wrote is true in that I'll not change to Vista for some time as I can't see any advantage to it for what I do with my home PC. It's also probably a little of my "Old Man hates change" coming out as I finally have everything working perfectly on my PC and don't have the patients of my youth anymore to redo it all again....

I completely agree that having Vista should not keep anyone form getting this great game!

< Message edited by Barthheart -- 11/23/2007 9:28:07 PM >

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RE: Invisible Saved Game Files?? - 11/23/2007 9:28:32 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox

Isn't this just a case of File Virtualization? http://www.hanselman.com/blog/VistasShowCompatibilityFilesAndTheScrumptiousWonderThatIsFileVirtualization.aspx

@Veldor: Have you tried to click on "Compatibility Files" in Windows Explorer?

@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it...



Yes if you read back in the thread you'll see I already mentioned that. As for the click option, it doesn't show up in Outlook which is the real issue here. Sending and Recieving my PBEM turn files. I am running the latest Outlook version which doesn't allow for access to the Virtual Store in any way (Probably for security reasons).

So again just an annoyance I either have to go to lengths to load/save my games elsewhere and/or skip through hoops with the default save location in order to get them into an email.

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