RE: Today is the day

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Today is the day - Finally

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> RE: Today is the day - Finally

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 6:00:25 PM

tgb

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimMerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: tgb

That's unfortunate. At $49.99 this would have been a day-one download for me.

Eric, you may want to rethink that pricing before release. I suspect you feel that anticipation is so great people will pay almost any price, but for most gamers $49.99 is the "magic number", and very hard to get past.

Snipped...

Yes, I falter at spending over $50.00 for a computer game, but that is a price point set 20 years ago as well....

Jim Merson

The fact that the $50 price point is 20 years old is irrelevant. It's still the standard today for most (PC) releases, and many come out at $40.

I have never bitched about Matrix pricing policies (as many have) before, and buy almost all new releases on release day from them. I could even understand the pricing for WitP, based on the scope and size, but passed on it nonetheless. With EiA, the only reason I can see for the inflated price is to capitalize on 4 years of anticipation

(in reply to JimMerson)

Post #: 31

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 6:29:55 PM

WJPalmer1

Posts: 81
Joined: 9/20/2004
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline

The $60/$70 price seems reasonable to me -- assuming the game delivers the real EiA experience. It will be well worth it. The out-of-print physical game is currently fetching that much and more on Ebay without the incredible advantages of a computer version. The business reality is that this game required a huge development effort and investment which Matrix is entitled to recoup. Too many subscribers lose sight of the fact that game publishers must turn a profit or they won't be around for the long term.

I may be out of touch, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone who has really anticipated this release over the years would balk now over $10.

(in reply to tgb)

Post #: 32

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 7:05:06 PM

sabre100

Posts: 393
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

I agree, $59.99 is not bad if the game delivers on all its points. I dont mind paying $60.00 for a good game that will keep me busy for a while. What upsets me is paying that much for a game that is just plain horrible, now that is a rip off. However this game looks very good from what I have been reading from here.

(in reply to WJPalmer1)

Post #: 33

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 7:45:56 PM

Adraeth

Posts: 400
Joined: 9/24/2007
From: Italy - near Florence
Status: offline

For me is ok, considering i live in Europe and i have a reason to bless the Euro � :D

< Message edited by Adraeth Montecuccoli -- 11/22/2007 7:46:00 PM >

_____________________________

www.histwar.fr/
---
Periods i like: age of muskets, napoleonics, modern combat.

(in reply to sabre100)

Post #: 34

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 7:58:42 PM

New York Jets

Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

EIA will be priced at $59.99 Download and $69.99 Boxed. The Physical/Boxed versions should be live either on the day of launch or later in the same week and we expect to have physical stock to ship out by December 14th.

So will there be a digital download plus physical shipment option available on day one, then?

I always purchase the digital + physical option when I buy games from you guys.

What I'm trying to say is that I want the download on day one and still get the pre-printed manual with the actual CD.

_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 35

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 8:47:29 PM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

The price point indicates to me that Matrix must be rather confident in the quality of the product. With a $59.99/69.99 price tag, I expect to get vast gameplay nearly on par with WitP, I expect an AI that will be a fair replacement for actual players, I expect replayability (this seems almost obvious at a glance - with all the sides and all the strategies). So I am guessing the Matrix execs are fairly sure that the game will deliver all of these things.

Either that or they are trying to scare people away to avoid consternation...

Just kidding!

Happy Thanksgiving!

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to New York Jets)

Post #: 36

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/22/2007 9:28:23 PM

fw1206

Posts: 38
Joined: 9/5/2004
From: near Karlsruhe
Status: offline

Hi. I'm from germany and here we are about to pay at least 50 EURO for a game. This means at least 70$ or more. And do you know the shipping costs form america to germany???? These are additional costs to us. I'm realy happy about a downloadable version for just 59,99$. Thats 20-30% saved money for me and i will get one of the best games.
Sure, i will be more happy if i could get it for 49,99$ but 59,99$ is a very fair price for more than 5 years of developing and spending a lot of manpower to this game. I don't think Ursa or one of the other developers will say the real costs for this game but i'm sure it will be millions. And now, please calculate these million for cost in copys for just 60$ !!

I would buy it right now for this price!!

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 37

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 1:08:38 AM

yammahoper

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline

I'll be making a new computer in a bit, so I'll get the box. I just hate having to wait that week for it to arrive!

yamma

_____________________________

...nothing is more chaotic than a battle won...

(in reply to fw1206)

Post #: 38

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 5:34:57 PM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

I must admit, I had given up on this game ever being released and had decided that even if released, I would not buy it. I now feel that itch to grab the game and will almost certainly buy it. I own Napoleon's Campaigns and it is up to the usual quality of AGEOD's titles, but I don't think these two games compete against each other in the least. They will both be fine additions to a Napoleonic gaming collection.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to yammahoper)

Post #: 39

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 5:48:14 PM

tgb

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

Let me clarify somewhat: I will probably buy this as long as the initial impressions are favorable. Having never played the board game, my excitement level is not as great as others, but I do love me some Napoleonic grand strategy, and have itch CoG failed to scratch.

I'm just saying that at this price point it went from automatic "refresh every 5 minutes on the 28th until it becomes available" to "give it a couple of days and see what the feedback is".

If the feedback indicated it's worth the extra $10, I'm in.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 40

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 6:48:21 PM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

Agreed, I have also never played the boardgame, but any Napoleonic title will instantly get my attention. I will wait a bit to buy EIA since with such a long and large developement, I am sure that some patches will be needed. I do worry that the AI will have a devil of a time in playing the game well. This game obviously comes into it's own with a group of actual players and this brings up another concern. Finding enough players who will actually stick with such a long game and be able to return turns consistantly. I realize that the AI will take up the slack but this does concern me.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to tgb)

Post #: 41

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 8:02:15 PM

bssybeep

Posts: 237
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline

Never played the boardgame, so was mildly interested in this title. But not at that price point, imho pretty high. Personally I will not pay that much money for any game. At 49.95 it definitely was a potential buy. I have NiI and Campaigns of Napoleon to keep me busy

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 42

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 10:19:13 PM

TheHellPatrol

Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

The price point indicates to me that Matrix must be rather confident in the quality of the product. With a $59.99/69.99 price tag, I expect to get vast gameplay nearly on par with WitP

Now that's thinking positive, i agree, if it's even close to the scope of Witp and not riddled with bugs/ctd's on day 1 i don't think any price under $100 would be unjustified. If Matrix came out and said: "Hey guys, Empire in Arms is finally done after all these years and it's only gonna be $9.99 at release!" i think i'd pass

.

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 43

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/23/2007 10:27:31 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fw1206
And do you know the shipping costs form america to germany???? These are additional costs to us.

Just FYI, if you purchase from our European store, the titles are shipped from our warehouse in the UK so the costs are significantly lower in shipping and there are no import taxes as it's all within the EU.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to fw1206)

Post #: 44

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 3:00:08 AM

jjax

Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bssybeep

Never played the boardgame, so was mildly interested in this title.� But not at that price point, imho pretty high.� Personally I will not pay that much money for any game.� At 49.95 it definitely was a potential buy.� I have NiI and Campaigns of Napoleon to keep me busy

I have no prob with the price point as long as the game is not riddled with bugs.

Talking about bugs, im still al little concerned about the AI a bit; that might cause me to have a "wait and see" approach.

_____________________________

--JJAX

(in reply to bssybeep)

Post #: 45

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 3:22:29 AM

demonterico

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Seattle WA
Status: offline

When Matrix first announced that they were going to do EinA I was more than thrilled, and now I have been waiting for years for this day, Nov 28th, to come. For anyone who hasn't played EinA, it is in my mind one of the primary classics of wargaming. I also believe that Matrix is the kind of company that truly wants to offer their customers top of the line products, and this is a major reason why they chose to do EinA in the first place. As far as price goes I trust Matrix to do right the right thing and charge a price thats justifiable. They are, after all, a bussiness and should make a profit. As long as the quality is there I'll pay their price. I paid full price for WitP when it first released and never regretted it for a moment. I'm still playing with it to this day, what a game!!

By the way, the EinA boardgame map and the WitP map are up on my wall side by side and have been for years. Although Matrix, I was a little disapointed by the size of the WitP map, I was really hoping for something larger, say maybe 4' x 6' or even 5' x 8'. I like um big.

Also, when WitP was first released I requested that Matrix offer some accessories to go with the game, and would like to see that happen again with EinA. However when I said accessories I wasn't really thinking about T-shirts and hats, I was thinking more along the line of maps, preprinted full size manuals, counters, preprinted game rosters, ect. Although I must say my wife looks really cute in her WitP tank top, and at this moment as I write this I am drinking coffee from my WitP mug.

_____________________________

The world has never seen a more impressive demonstration of the influence of sea power upon history. Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and the dominion of the world. -- Alfred Thayer Mahan

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 46

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 7:31:22 AM

ZoomBoy27

Posts: 75
Joined: 8/13/2001
From: Vancouver BC Canada
Status: offline

hmm... just trying to figure out a way to play it at work(at lunch-time) without bringing IT down upon my head.

We'll see about the download/activation methods

Edit: the game size is 160MB - maybe I can transfer it to my iPod and then transfer it to my work PC

< Message edited by ZoomBoy27 -- 11/24/2007 7:37:27 AM >

(in reply to demonterico)

Post #: 47

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 9:55:14 AM

AminMaalouf

Posts: 176
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline

I haven't been aware that EiA is that close already. There are tow Matrix titles I wait for, this is one. The other is the standalone extension of CoG.

(in reply to ZoomBoy27)

Post #: 48

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 6:28:14 PM

New York Jets

Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Trog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

EIA will be priced at $59.99 Download and $69.99 Boxed. The Physical/Boxed versions should be live either on the day of launch or later in the same week and we expect to have physical stock to ship out by December 14th.

So will there be a digital download plus physical shipment option available on day one, then?

I always purchase the digital + physical option when I buy games from you guys.

What I'm trying to say is that I want the download on day one and still get the pre-printed manual with the actual CD.

BUMP!

_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to New York Jets)

Post #: 49

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 6:51:09 PM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline

The price doesn't bother me. I am just wondering if it'll be worth the price..

I stopped waiting on this one along time ago.

But the Matrix team do develope excellent wargames.

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to JimMerson)

Post #: 50

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/24/2007 9:32:45 PM

morvwilson

Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

For me, the board game was the best napoleonic campaign game I have ever run across. I will be buying this Nov. 28.
I will also post my opinions of the game once I have played a few times.
Looking forward to my first try!

_____________________________

http://www.outskirtspress.com/Feud_MichaelWilson

Courage is not measured by the presence of fear, but by what a person does when they are scared!

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 51

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/25/2007 12:59:34 PM

Spartan07

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: UK
Status: offline

Guys,

lets support this game and pay the extra $10. Surely we can find that amount for such a great game:)

_____________________________

Mike - Nego

(in reply to JimMerson)

Post #: 52

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/25/2007 1:57:44 PM

Naomi

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline

If prices are already final, could we have a look at the manual now while in wait? *(^o^)*

(in reply to Spartan07)

Post #: 53

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/25/2007 4:57:06 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

Three things......

*******

One thing to think about.... (at the risk of being flamed)

It is pretty likely that the consumer base for a game like this is much smaller than the consumer base for games like Civilization and any of the various Mario titles.� I am unsure how the development cost compares.� I suspect that the cost of tons and tons of spiffy 3D graphics outweighs the programming cost on many titles. Even so, due to the smaller group of likely consumers, we should expect to pay more.

If we want quality computerized versions of our favorite wargames, we need to encourage such development by being willing to pay the premium cost.��No matter how badly someone wants to produce a game, they have to earn a living.� Either we help provide that living by paying the right price or we do without the game.

Clearly it is a personal choice, but the success of games like this and several others will have bearing on what games are done over the next few years.

******

Something that was posted earlier gave the impression that those who purchased the Download+Physical option immediately upon release might not receive a printed manual. I certainly would not expect that to be the case. Could someone please confirm or deny?

******
Could we get a look at the manual now???� I seem to remember that there are elements�of EIH mixed in with this version of EIA. �I have been trying to decipher the rules to EIA and am constantly wondering what applies and what does not.�

Other than that, congratulations to all for reaching this milestone!

Dean

(edited to reaarange paragraphs ---- That will teach me not to preview)

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to Naomi)

Post #: 54

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/25/2007 5:45:34 PM

tgb

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

It is pretty likely that the consumer base for a game like this is much smaller than the consumer base for games like Civilization and any of the various Mario titles. I am unsure how the development cost compares. I suspect that the cost of tons and tons of spiffy 3D graphics outweighs the programming cost on many titles. Even so, due to the smaller group of likely consumers, we should expect to pay more.

If we want quality computerized versions of our favorite wargames, we need to encourage such development by being willing to pay the premium cost. No matter how badly someone wants to produce a game, they have to earn a living. Either we help provide that living by paying the right price or we do without the game.

Clearly it is a personal choice, but the success of games like this and several others will have bearing on what games are done over the next few years.

There are many fans of the boardgame who have been waiting for this for many years and no doubt will pay any price. That is all well and good.

OTOH, there are also hundreds (thousands?) of potential purchasers like myself who came to wargaming via the computer, and have never played the boardgame, and are not sure if this is right for them. Given that Matrix has an apparent policy of "no demos", the $60 price point turns what would have been an automatic purchase into a "wait and see".

It's not that I can't afford the extra $10 - it's that for many, $49.95 is the "sweet spot" for pricing a game, and one that's hard to get past.

As I posted before, if they even offered a $10 discount for orders placed before release, I would jump on it like dead on Elvis.

(Edited because grammar are fun.)

< Message edited by tgb -- 11/25/2007 6:10:00 PM >

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 55

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/25/2007 6:24:19 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

(Please take this in the spirit of open discussion - I'm not really refuting your point, just offering another set of considerations)

Point taken about those who may or may not buy it because of the price. I am not sure I agree (see below), but you may be right.

I remember a new copy of the tabletop game (when it was available in game stores) being $35. Surely the 'computerization' of the product is worth another $25.

Furthermore, When EIA (tabletop) was $35, you could buy Star Fleet Battles for $20.

Ultimately, the price has to be set according to several criteria.

1)

(Cost of Production + Expected Profit (production, wholesale, and retail) ) / Expected Sales

2)

More, if the public will pay.

Price setting for intellectual property is a very interesting problem.

Thinking about what the public will pay...

Lets consider Civilization 4 --- one game - two expansion packs. I don't remember what price it came out at for sure, but I think it was 39.99. The expansions were 29.99 each (IIRC). That adds up to almost $100. (Don't forget that was after Civ, CivNet, Civ2, Civ3, Civ3 Expansion)

Lets consider Starfleet Command - I think they had 4 products before it was over. The total was easily over $100.

What is the likelyhood of an expansion pack for a game like this? If you expand it, is it still Empires in Arms?

I guess you could add more map sections and have the same game mechanics for the New World, etc. Maybe it is a candidate for an expansion pack.

In my mind, the real question is Will people who have not played games like this buy it -- even if it is $20.00?

I have no idea what the sales figures were for EIA (tabletop). I would expect the computer version sales to be comparable... give or take 20%.

And yes, if the price were $10.00 less, I would happily pay it instead. If it were $10.00 more, I would pay it as well, but for different reasons than your typical purchaser. I want to encourage more of the same.

Specifically, I would like to see more turn based faithful reproductions of complex board games with PBEM / Direct Connect / and strong AIs. You see, I have plans for my retirement. I want to play all of the games I never had time to play during Real Life (TM).

I am sad for what has 'almost' been. Here is a prime example.

Starfleet Command was supposed to be a real-time reproduction of StarFleet Battles. I was hoping for turn-based but was intrigued by how they adjusted to real time. (I think they did many things correctly.) Then the designers decided that the battles progressed too slowly and decided to monkey with damage allocation to make the game more exciting. This changed all kinds of dynamics that had been carefully balanced over 3 releases since 1974. I was a playtester for the original (For those who will check, I am listed in the readme but not in the manual because Real Life (TM) got in the way). I knew it had missed the mark in my opinion. But I bought it anyway. Why? Because it was a step in the right direction.

One of my goals is to do what Marshall has done. Take an old favorite and put it on the computer. Maybe someday. Until then, I have to hope that the game producers will do it for me. The only influence I have with them is my wallet. (It is, after all, a capitalist world.)

So, I will gladly pay what some others may see as a little too much. I am investing in the future.

(Is Matrix Games publicly held?--- If so, what is the stock symbol.. I might buy a share or two

)

Again, I am not necessarily refuting your point. You may be exactly correct.

Dean

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to tgb)

Post #: 56

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/25/2007 6:47:41 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

To respond to an earlier question, we hope to have physical versions of EIA available for _order_ on release. They won't ship out until later in December, but they will be available to order in the store. All physical versions of EIA will come in a full color wide DVD box with a full color printed manual.

My only concern with all our physical releases at present is that due to printer delays, we are really going to be receiving stock much closer to Christmas than I am normally comfortable with. For this reason, I expect that there will be some folks who, due to the normal Christmas shipping delays, won't receive their physical copy until after the holidays. I would recommend ordering the digital+physical version because of that possibility, rather than the physical only.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 57

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/26/2007 1:06:47 AM

JimMerson

Posts: 60
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

To respond to an earlier question, we hope to have physical versions of EIA available for _order_ on release. They won't ship out until later in December, but they will be available to order in the store. All physical versions of EIA will come in a full color wide DVD box with a full color printed manual.

My only concern with all our physical releases at present is that due to printer delays, we are really going to be receiving stock much closer to Christmas than I am normally comfortable with. For this reason, I expect that there will be some folks who, due to the normal Christmas shipping delays, won't receive their physical copy until after the holidays. I would recommend ordering the digital+physical version because of that possibility, rather than the physical only.

Regards,

- Erik

Well, open up the store!!!!! (picture me as a young child doing the "I gotta go" dance) And I will do just that, order the download with a physical when available. I think the manual will be worth the extra $10.00!!

Jim

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 58

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/26/2007 6:57:29 AM

New York Jets

Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

To respond to an earlier question, we hope to have physical versions of EIA available for _order_ on release. They won't ship out until later in December, but they will be available to order in the store. All physical versions of EIA will come in a full color wide DVD box with a full color printed manual.

My only concern with all our physical releases at present is that due to printer delays, we are really going to be receiving stock much closer to Christmas than I am normally comfortable with. For this reason, I expect that there will be some folks who, due to the normal Christmas shipping delays, won't receive their physical copy until after the holidays. I would recommend ordering the digital+physical version because of that possibility, rather than the physical only.

Regards,

- Erik

All I know is that if I can buy the digital+pnysical and be guaranteed the manual I don't mind if I have to wait for awhile to get the CD/manual.

I'd rather have a pre-printed manual than incur all of that wear and tear on my printer. Not to mention the cost of ink.

I can play the downloaded version and read the manual in the game file secure in the knowledge that a pre-printed manual is coming my way.

_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 59

RE: Today is the day - Finally - 11/27/2007 2:44:13 AM

Marshall Ellis