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Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 5:48:30 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Do the historical scernarios in this game stack up decently enough, and are they historically accurate enough, to make the game a worthwhile purchase for an ultragrognard?

I have no interest whatsoever in the randomized scenario engine.

Screenshots look intriguing, but all the references to cities producing units smacks of an RTS.
I'm not interested in a "Blitzkrieg" style engine where new units pop up every thirty seconds (saddest excuse for a wargame I ever encountered).

Can anyone with experience with this engine give me a take on it?
Post #: 1
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 6:02:15 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		First off it's not RTS. It's igo-ugo turn based.

The production is based in cities to represent factories, recruiting centers,training centers, etc. You have to plan out your army's needs and set the build orders. On your next turn you get what you asked for. You only have so many productions points at each city. Cities of different size have different production points. Also each city can only produce up to 4 different kinds of material at a time. This includes supplies and Political Points, kind of a currency used mostly for research.

The scenarios that come with the game are not bad at representing the battles they are about. But they are not "Ultra Grognard" level. They were created with a "standard" set of units to show different battles without changing the rules too much for first time users.

There are a number of scenarios underway by users that will, I'm sure, get closer to actual OOB's and such. The editor is very powerful and once we all fully understand it, there will be much rule/unit changing going on to bring it closer to games like AH's Third Reich or The Longest day or GDW's Europa series games.... but I don't know if you can do it exactly.... yet...

Hope that helps.

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Post #: 2
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 6:30:46 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		That helps a lot.

Thanks

Interesting that the three board games you mention are some of my all time favorites!

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 3
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 6:41:26 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Yeah.... I've been waiting a long time for some way to make these into computer games....

Now I just need time from real life to play..... can't wait for retirement....

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 4
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 6:54:27 PM   
jjdenver

 

Posts: 2247
Joined: 11/2/2007
Status: offline 		Hey Hans,

It's not an "ultra-grognard" game. But I think it does model the overall strategic situation well. For example take a look at some of the Russian Front AAR's - pretty darned realistic in my opinion at the strategic level and fairly realistic even at the tactical, grand tactical, and operational levels. It's also got a flexible editor and a bunch of historical scenarios - I've never even played a random scenario myself - I'm only interested in pre-built historical scenarios.

JJ

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 5
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 8:58:34 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hans,

You may be pleasantly surprised once you give it a try. I know a lot of "ultra-grognards" that ended up having a lot of fun with not only the historical but also the random and fictional scenarios.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 6
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 11:32:13 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		I second Erik !
I'm amongst the usual "grogs", at first I laughed at the game un-historicity. Most of the "historical" scenarios are quite far off in the details, they have no decent OOB, usually unhistorical production rates, research, maps have no set scale, naval and air movement rates are totally off, and so on ! But but but,... the game is still very interesting and fun ! And more than that, even with their gross simplifications, the scenarios manage to capture the real challenges of the depicted situation, be it Ardennes'44 or the whole Russian Front ! That's the real beauty of this game

Additionnally, nothing prevents players from doing real historical scenarios, with a modded unit database. The only real difficulty imho being to set a proper scale (time/space) and units sizes - in the game everything comes up "undescript".

Lastly, I was also rather reluctant about the interest of random games, but when you try it you love it  !



(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 7
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/27/2007 11:43:10 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Most of the "historical" scenarios are quite far off in the details, they have no decent OOB, usually unhistorical production rates, research, maps have no set scale, naval and air movement rates are totally off, and so on !





Well Guys,

As much as I appreciate your efforts to convince me that I'm going to enjoy it, the quote above is enough for me to decide to pass.

To me, it's the details that matter most. I can't have "flavor" without the details as they are what create "flavor" for me more than anything else.

I absolutely hate generic countermixes. When I'm taking Kharkov in 1942 with Papa Hausser leading his SS corps I MUST have the three proper SS divisions under command with the GD on my flank and not some generic "armored" units.

It just doesn't sound like the game for me.




(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 8
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 12:50:26 AM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Most of the "historical" scenarios are quite far off in the details, they have no decent OOB, usually unhistorical production rates, research, maps have no set scale, naval and air movement rates are totally off, and so on !





Well Guys,

As much as I appreciate your efforts to convince me that I'm going to enjoy it, the quote above is enough for me to decide to pass.

To me, it's the details that matter most. I can't have "flavor" without the details as they are what create "flavor" for me more than anything else.

I absolutely hate generic countermixes. When I'm taking Kharkov in 1942 with Papa Hausser leading his SS corps I MUST have the three proper SS divisions under command with the GD on my flank and not some generic "armored" units.

It just doesn't sound like the game for me.




I'm not going to try and convince you to take a plunge - I know everyone has their own reasons for a gmae that just grabs them. I also like "historical" flavor with the attendant details. (although one of my favorite games was AH -3R), but having said that. I dont entirely agree with PdiFalco, I'm playing one random scen. Started it just to learn how to play, and it's quick and fun - definitely easy to pick up, with quick turns.

But I'm also playing the North Africa Scen. that ships with the game, In this scen. the production side of the game has been suspended, and units come on either as historical units, the 15th Panzer Division, the 90th Light Division have just disembarked to join the 21st Panzer Div, the 5th Light Division, along with the Ariete, Sovronna, Italian divisions.

the scenario design (Vic in this case) provides replacements in HQ units, to feed to the Divisions.

It puts me in mind of a better version of the very first computerized wargme I owned, Knights of the Desert. I'm enjoying it quite a lot.

I have now doubt that as we see more user created scenarios, we'll see more of "historically" constrained scenarios.

Not trying to influence you, but encouraging to to keep on eye on this forum as well as the community site. I'm sure there will soon be scenarios you that you will be interested in seeing.

Rick

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 9
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 1:37:50 AM   
hazxan

 

Posts: 69
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Most of the "historical" scenarios are quite far off in the details, they have no decent OOB, usually unhistorical production rates, research, maps have no set scale, naval and air movement rates are totally off, and so on !

Well Guys,

As much as I appreciate your efforts to convince me that I'm going to enjoy it, the quote above is enough for me to decide to pass.


Yes, it's better to get honest, helpful replies to your question rather than the common "it rokks - buy now" reply! I agree with PDiFolco's comments, so perhaps the lack of historical accuracy would disappoint you. However, I was mainly interested in historical scenarios too, yet have found the random ones to be totally addictive! Not expected at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
I absolutely hate generic countermixes. When I'm taking Kharkov in 1942 with Papa Hausser leading his SS corps I MUST have the three proper SS divisions under command with the GD on my flank and not some generic "armored" units.


Although the current scenarios could be described as 'sketches' of their historical counterparts, the editor and underlying systems are *very* versatile. It's probably not impossible to create a scenario with the detail you describe. It'll be interesting to see what the community comes up with.

Overall, I can see the attraction of historical accuracy. However, AT appears to be in an under represented niche somewhere between abstract game and historical simulation. I mean it's much more genuinely 'strategic' than say, the Total War series, yet avoids going off to where you need to have as much historical knowledge as the original general did just to play the game! (and as I'm notagrog, this is OK with me)


< Message edited by NotaGrog -- 11/28/2007 1:40:17 AM >

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 10
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 8:05:44 AM   
tweber

 

Posts: 1411
Joined: 6/27/2007
Status: offline 		After writing a some of the scenarios, I really think that historical accuracy is possible by 2 means:

- Making the scale of the scenario limited in size and time (e.g., invasion of Poland).
- Massively constraining a player's freedom of action.  If you want a scenario that covers Europe starting from 1939 and usually ends with the Soviets marching into Berlin in May of 1945, the players almost have to be reading from a script.   I think larger scale scenarios have to be a bit more loose with history to maximize playability.  

The real challenge in designing these scenarios is providing players with the same level of uncertainty that commanders and politicians felt at the time.  The difficultly is that we know how things turned out.  How does a game properly simulate US production during the WWII yet ever get Germany or Japan to do the things that bring that production into the war?  If you can add a sufficient historical variability, I think you better simulate the actual uncertainty that was felt at the time.  In the end, I think scenarios have a choice between either simulating what actually happened or simulating the difficult choices made by those with a uncertain view of the future. 

(in reply to hazxan)
Post #: 11
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 10:45:23 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi all,

The thing with the AT engine is that in one radical way it is very different from all other wargame engines. It is a non unit-centered game engine. This makes it impossible to ensure the continued existence of units like "the 2nd ss pz div" throughout a game. (but a player can if he wants too of course)

The thing in which the engine shines in my opinion is the fact that it recreates pretty good the realities of ww2 era warfare. So even if the OOBs might not be that excellent, the actual way the scenario plays out, the mechanics and the effects of the different types of weapons on eachother is very historical in my opinion.

I think myself its much more important to be able to do blitz style operations, defensive lines, defense in depth, counter attacks and artillery preperations properly then to have the units and stuff named correctly. Especially since the naming does not have that much effect, since i can easily split the unit in parts or transfer their contents to other units. (and the AI certainly will)

Kind regards,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 11/28/2007 10:46:40 AM >

(in reply to tweber)
Post #: 12
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 10:46:32 AM   
serg3d1

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline 		There two different things here: - existing scenarios and potential for creating historical scenarios.
Existing scenario, at least for Russia 1941 is far off mark in all aspects - OOB, tech, production, force placement.  The problem of existing scenario - there was not enough efforts put into it, it's mote like afterthought addition to game engine. It's defenitely possible to create far better historical scenario with editor, without losing any fun factor. The interesting thing is, that even this lacking scenario capture the spirit of Barbarossa very well. It highlight the most important aspect of early Barbarossa - it was fluid battle of strikes and counterstrikes, with both sides cutting or tying to cut enemy supply/communication lines all the time.

(in reply to tweber)
Post #: 13
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 3:00:32 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		I appreciate the in depth replies without anyone resorting to denegration of anyone else's preferences and without the "buy it dude, it roxxers" style of response.

It's rather refreshing in a public forum to manage to stimulate intelligent discussion.

My statement that I abhor generic countermixes was perhaps stronger than necessary and doesn't mean I haven't played and enjoyed games that have them. I was, after all a playtester of Advanced Third Reich. It's difficult to avoid having generic countermixes in grad strategic simulations.

It's once things get to operational level or below that leaving out historical accuracy and historical naming starts to detract heavily from the game's overall appeal, at least for me.

A fair number of you seem to be enjoying the engine itself inspte of the historical inaccuracies and that alone says a lot.

I'm still riding the fence and will continue to look in here to help me decide.

Thanks for the replies guys.

(in reply to serg3d1)
Post #: 14
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 5:10:51 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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I'm like you I love historical scenario's over random generic. But with this game it plays so well it feels like a wargame should. Its not like other WWII games were there is plenty of detail and no game and the earths natural laws get suspended each turn.
It gets you engrossed in the decision making process, Should I move reserves here? Should I send I unit there. Can I pull a unit out of the line to regroup?
Sure I would have loved more historical scenarios and units to be actual regiments,companies etc but once you start playing your captivated.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 15
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 6:21:09 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Oh, and "Just buy it Dude it ROKKS!!!!"

< Message edited by Barthheart -- 11/28/2007 6:47:54 PM >

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 16
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 6:45:49 PM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


I'm like you I love historical scenario's over random generic. But with this game it plays so well it feels like a wargame should. Its not like other WWII games were there is plenty of detail and no game and the earths natural laws get suspended each turn.
It gets you engrossed in the decision making process, Should I move reserves here? Should I send I unit there. Can I pull a unit out of the line to regroup?
Sure I would have loved more historical scenarios and units to be actual regiments,companies etc but once you start playing your captivated.



This is right on the money...the decision making process in this game (and its predecessor, People's Tactics) is absolutely engrossing, PBEM games are a real blast. I believe once scenarios start coming out with more accurate OOB's, interesting "events" that enhance historical gameply, even agreed upon rules for unit sizes, etc., this game will get even better. The best part about it is its flexibility, as has been said before.

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 17
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 10:08:50 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Hans,

Take a look at the AAR section for PBEM - Fall Grun. Historical OOB, setting, etc. Really cool!

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 18
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/28/2007 10:50:50 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Thanks I am and have already started asking stupid questions.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 19
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 1:27:43 AM   
Essro

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Hans,

Sounds like you and I have similar concerns. Having said that I will give you the advice I would have expected had our roles been reversed and you had bought the game whereas I was asking this question.

Bottom line:

The lack of historical unit sizes/designations will drive you batty!!! You probably won't play some of the scenarios just because of it----I don't. However, the genius of this thing is the editor. So, if you are into scenario design, this game is an absolutely must have. If not, I would wait and see what the community puts together. Having said this, it is almost too bad the unit size/name issues were not addressed earlier for the grognards because the way the game plays it really quite fun.


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 20
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 3:40:17 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allsop

Hans,

The lack of historical unit sizes/designations will drive you batty!!!

Having said this, it is almost too bad the unit size/name issues were not addressed earlier for the grognards because the way the game plays it really quite fun.




As for the lack of visible detail potentailly driving me batty, that is exactly the impression I have garnered.

As for the "almost too bad" part I couldn't agree more. Although I am an agnostic, they say God is in the details. If only some one had stopped to consider "what additional minor step do we need to take to ensure a broad appeal" the implementation would have been so much better. After all, all they had to do was arrange a mechanism that would display a unit ID and a unit size on their "flexible" counters and they would have had every last one of us grogs hook, line and sinker. It's just a shame no one thought of it.

(in reply to Essro)
Post #: 21
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 3:57:07 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Well they got everything else about right Sure I'm sorry that they did not designate or let you scale designations to the scenarios. But you can name the parent units So in my 45 game Budapest is defended by IX SS and III SS is trying to relieve whilst unfortunately the sub units are only modelled generically the Game plays operationally better than any wargame in its class

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 11/29/2007 4:20:52 PM >

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 22
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 4:52:54 PM   
serg3d1

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline 		There is no much sense in putting the name of the unit on the board, because ther could be several units stacked in one hex. The name of the current unit is visible in the bottom bar. And each unit could be renamed any way you want. I have Mech Corps, Air Armies, Assault Engineer Brigades, Strike Armies and Guard Corps

< Message edited by serg3d1 -- 11/29/2007 4:54:36 PM >

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 23
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 5:34:14 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: serg3d1

There is no much sense in putting the name of the unit on the board, because ther could be several units stacked in one hex.


Board gamers have dealt with that phenomenon from the days of the first game that allowed stacking. Only being able to identify the top unit in a stack does inhibit the ability to identify units in the big picture, but only to a small degree as it is inherently easier to remember what other units you stacked under the 25th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment than it is to remember what you stacked under that unidentified generic panzer grenadier counter in the middle of the battlefield. So, I beg to differ with your position in taking the position that yes it does make perfect sense.

(in reply to serg3d1)
Post #: 24
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 6:01:57 PM   
BlackSunshine


Posts: 366
Joined: 11/22/2002
Status: offline 		Hans,

You really are selling yourself quite short. One of the best operational level games I have played are the Panzer Campaigns games by HPS. They do not have the units names on the counter, but they have the most accurate OOB and maps for battles I have seen. At 1km per hex and most scenarios are at batallion level, the game is a grognards dream.

AT, while not as detailed, is easily moddable and simulates operational level combat very well. Im pleasantly surprised at the level of detail inside the game itself, and it does a great job of replicating most strategic situations in any conflict.

I won't try to beat you over the head with how good the game is, but for being being stringent on having unit names on counters, you are missing out on a lot of good wargames.

Just my $.02

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 25
RE: Historical scenarios. - 11/29/2007 7:02:14 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: allsop

Hans,

The lack of historical unit sizes/designations will drive you batty!!!

Having said this, it is almost too bad the unit size/name issues were not addressed earlier for the grognards because the way the game plays it really quite fun.




As for the lack of visible detail potentailly driving me batty, that is exactly the impression I have garnered.

As for the "almost too bad" part I couldn't agree more. Although I am an agnostic, they say God is in the details. If only some one had stopped to consider "what additional minor step do we need to take to ensure a broad appeal" the implementation would have been so much better. After all, all they had to do was arrange a mechanism that would display a unit ID and a unit size on their "flexible" counters and they would have had every last one of us grogs hook, line and sinker. It's just a shame no one thought of it.



Hans,

TOAW offered the ability to create some of the most accurate and detailed OOBs I've seen, and yet, no facility for showing names on map-board. nother I ejoyed were the Panzer Campaigns. In fact one of the few relatively recent games where unit designations appeared on the counters on the map were the last two offerings from Schwerpunkt, RussaGerman War (unfortuneatey, I've lost my game CD for that one).

In any event, you could in fact design an install counters that had size designations on them, but once they were put under human control, they might not look like they started very long.

In any event, I'd like having unit designatins on the units, but this game has already given me quite a lot of fun. I think anyone who enjoys operational/strategic games will want to have this in their collection. BUT, I think this game has staying power, and will be around for awhile, so (don't kick me Erik) sit back, watch what happens as modders actually get some time to tinker, and wait until you see some results that look like they might please you.

But I'd keep watching the discusion on this game if I were you, I think it's going to a long term winner.

Rick

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 26
RE: Historical scenarios. - 12/1/2007 4:10:17 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Hi. I have just posted my first attempt at a historical scenario (War in the East 2) at the AT scenario bank; Divisional level, 7 days per turn, with a 95% historical setup (including the command structure for both sides, but excluding the Korps level as it added too many layers). I've even used all the historical German unit names and included the names of key commanders. IT NOW NEEDS THE COMMUNITY TO HELP WITH EDITS AND IMPROVEMENTS - ESPECIALLY THE EVENTS ENGINE, AS I'M USELESS AT THAT.

Of course, the AI will create new units with non-historical names over time, but that's only a minor annoyance. I've played it through to Sept 1941 as both sides against the AI and the front line was almost exactly as it was historically.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 27
RE: Historical scenarios. - 12/1/2007 4:15:55 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Hans - I meant to add that I'm a gamer since the 1970s (AH and all that, TOAW, etc. etc.). I HATE 'Blitzkreig' and all RTS games of that type. However, after a couple of hours initially feeling ripped off by the AT developers I quickly began to recognise a truly great game engine with huge potential. The stock scenarios are not up to grognard standards, but I am convinced this game will prosper because you can edit so many facets. I highly recommend it. The Ardennes scenario and N Africa really got me interested, so I suggest starting there.

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 28
RE: Historical scenarios. - 12/1/2007 6:08:33 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		@redmarkus4,

please open a thread in the editing forum so people can give feedback there.

kind regards,
Vic

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 29
RE: Historical scenarios. - 12/1/2007 6:22:56 PM   
Der Oberst


Posts: 64
Joined: 7/31/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
However, after a couple of hours initially feeling ripped off by the AT developers I quickly began to recognise a truly great game engine with huge potential. The stock scenarios are not up to grognard standards, but I am convinced this game will prosper because you can edit so many facets.


This is where I come down on this game as well. I think it has "potential". I like the interface and the game engine, but if you're looking for an historically accurate game out of the box this will disappoint you. The most blatant evidence being the North African scenario where 21st Pz and 5th Leichte fight on the same map - they really couldn't you see as 5th Leichte became 21st Pz in October 1941. I wouldn't say this factoid would necessarily be for the "ultra-grognard" either...

That said, the game is very editable (though the scenario building interface is not all that intuitive), and with a proper group of scenario designers this game shows a great deal of promise.

So, bottom line, if you want an historically accurate game out of the box, and are unwilling to learn the editor and build scenarios (or buy-enjoy the game- then wait for scenarios...) I would leave this title alone.

For the record, I bought the game, am learning the game engine, and will either build scenarios or wait for those who will.


_____________________________

Regards,

Der Oberst
-----------------------------------------

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 30
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