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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/2/2007 5:16:37 PM

anvl

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Terminus,,

glad you have no problems with Vista,, thats good to hear.

But..

It appears that your success comes from purchasing a complete new computer system which included Vista. That is the Mac approach, so perhaps,, and assuming you are not the isolated success case,,, that is where Microsoft is going,, a closed system,not an open one.

No matter the problems microsoft seems to have with its releases,, the reason i use this system,,beyond gaming,, is the ability to tinker with my hardware,,and upgrade my hardware system a bit at a time. there is a whole structure out there that hardware vendors and software vendors have to follow to be able to work within this open system..

It seems to me that microsoft needs follow its own rules and make their new OS at least be compatable with existing hardware? It will be after a few fixes and upgrades i am sure...

Or,, hehe perhaps those Mac commercials are right? Do what you can for Vista,,not what can vista do for you?

anvil

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Post #: 31

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/2/2007 5:18:32 PM

Terminus

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Erm, I don't have Vista...

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Post #: 32

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/2/2007 6:08:00 PM

EUBanana

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When Linux has ported DirectX then Linux is in business.

Until then Linux = fail, for I want games.

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Post #: 33

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/2/2007 6:25:48 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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I have both. In fact, I have multiple copies of both. I took the Vista-plunge for professional reasons; I needed to learn how to use it. I hate to quote myself, but, to save myself a few keystrokes, here's a synopsis of my experience with the OS from several months back:

quote:

I purchased a copy of Vista Home Premium (OEM), so that I could learn how to use it. It's installed on a spare, 90GB partition of the system that I'm writing this post on. While it installed easily enough, I've found it to have all sorts of issues with peripherals and applications, everything from a year-old mopier to Adobe Reader. Honestly, it seems that EVERYTHING that I try do with Vista requires me to go online and research some sort of "workaround." This not an attractive quality in a world where folks with cash to spend can buy a Mac.

Technically, I hate it. In an environment where energy costs are soaring, M$ thrusts this resource hog on us, one that DEMANDS more wattage than it's predecessor, what with it's requirements for more RAM and VGA memory. Throw in a dual-core processor, and you're power bill is going up, trust me. With everything turned off, except Vista of course, my system's memory use idles at 508mb! I'm sorry, but there's simply no fit rationale for ANY OS to squander that level of resource, ON ITSELF. But don't worry, if you want to run Photo Shop, just throw in a couple of more GB RAM, and you're off.

Finally, there's sound, something which certainly impacts gamers. I'm not gonna give a detailed technical explanation of what Gates and company have done too it, but it's likely never gonna be as good as it was with WinXP. You can spend all the money that you like on a card, but Vista's software layer is so thick as to render the hardware acceleration that we're so fond of sort of mute. Microsoft claims that it was done to improve system stability by moving more of the sound API away from the kernal. I say, BS. It was done to improve DRM, at the expense of folks who paid for higher-end sound via parts like the Creative Labs X-Fi.

In closing, I've had Vista as an option on my system for about three months. About once a week, I login, look around and shrug my shoulders. It's certainly cute enough. I used to play one of the new games, (3D) Mahjong Titans, but stopped because it has a bug in it.

Since posting the thoughts above, I've actually played game demos on Vista, Crysis, Bioshock and World in Conflict. While they run well enough, they run better in WinXP, with higher fps and much better sound. It's also worth noting that my gaming system is what could fairly be described as "muscular," having been built from about $1,800 worth of parts from Newegg computer. However, I still don't feel as though there's anything particularly revolutionary about Vista, excepting perhaps it's memory demands.

I still can't get over the fact that it takes 500+ megabytes of memory to boot into Vista. For that matter, the experience is a whole lot more like going from DOS to Win95 than going from '98 to XP. In both cases the interface was glitzier, but for a fair length of time, I couldn't do a hell of a lot with Win95, whereas XP allowed me to cache gobs of system memory, right off the bat. I didn't have a lot of problems with it as I'd already abandoned most of my old games that were written in 16-bit code.

I'm not sure where all this is headed, btw. I can say with considerable confidence that IT managers have NO interest in Vista. It uses too much electricity relative to the amount of work it does. YES, boys and girls, there's a price-tag for all that extra silicon and it's measured in kilowatts (which has a commensurate value in dollars). NOPE, they're gonna ring the last ounce of life out of 2000 and XP, and then look for something else, methinks, likely a Linux distribution. Time will tell.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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Post #: 34

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 2:12:51 AM

Bossy573

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From: Buffalo, NY
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Interesting thread.

I have Vista running on a box I built this summer and I have to say it is rock solid stable, after I tweaked it to death, canned just about all of its security features, etc. Hard to say what MS was trying to do with this OS however. I bought it and almost immediately wondered what, beyond the eye candy, had changed.
Really though, if you have the hardware it is not a bad OS. But it clearly wasn't necessary.

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Post #: 35

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 3:39:25 AM

anvl

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Terminus,,

My aplogies,,, It must be that my keyboard has a mind of its own,,,

I meant the post as a response to Adam Parker

again,, sorry for my Bad,,,

anvil

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Post #: 36

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 5:29:20 AM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573

Interesting thread.

I have Vista running on a box I built this summer and I have to say it is rock solid stable, after I tweaked it to death, canned just about all of its security features, etc. Hard to say what MS was trying to do with this OS however. I bought it and almost immediately wondered what, beyond the eye candy, had changed.
Really though, if you have the hardware it is not a bad OS. But it clearly wasn't necessary.

My thoughts on Vista too for the most part. After bagging all the extra security BS and tinkering with it - the only big complaint I have is the memory usage. Since everyone seems to finally be updating their software for it things have been pretty smooth for me lately. The stability of it is a nice leap from XP as I've witnessed from occasional game crashes that I'd have to either hit Alt-Ctrl-Del and then the Windows Start key on the keyboard to get to minimize in XP or just outright reset the power.

My gaming machine still has XP on it, but I'll eventually switch to Vista when I upgrade it if they haven't released a newer Windows by then.

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Post #: 37

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 9:13:10 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anvl

Terminus,, � �� My aplogies,,, It must be that my keyboard has a mind of its own,,,�

I meant the post as a response to Adam Parker

again,, sorry for my Bad,,,

LOL! You woke me up and back into the thread

But I agree with you and if you read my posts carefully that was my point - Vista seems to love brand new systems, with quality hardware, built my competent people. And quality does not necessarily equate to $$$$.

And as NefariousKoel pointed out, lots of memory too.

But it's also comforting to hear of people who build their own, having smooth times. They seem to know what they're doing when it comes to IT competency

Btw PoE's post above is a perfect example of a polite, meaningful and useful post as a counter to this debate. Wanted ot write that some days ago.

Adam.

(in reply to anvl)

Post #: 38

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 3:51:34 PM

ravinhood

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Thing is your average joe consumer doesn't build their own systems. You have a majority of users out there scratching their heads because their games and/or other programs aren't working when they PLUG them in. So, that's why I say most of the Vista lovers posts on here have no merit you aren't the norm and the norm is what will decide if Vista makes it or not. Not the techno dweebs. ;)

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Post #: 39

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 4:04:21 PM

leastonh1

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Here's one (more) perfect example of why Vista sucks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7126902.stm

What an absolute shambles! Microsoft must have had an enormous amount of complaints to do something like this! They certainly wouldn't make a u-turn with something as major as the anti-piracy component of their OS unless it was seriously fubar.

That story says it all really. With each Windows release, Microsoft are forcing us to relinquish more and more control of the operating system we run on our PC's. Is that a good thing?! Anti-piracy measures are all very well, but when they are so poorly implemented that they have a detrimental affect on genuine customers, then it's one step too far.

Considering their vast resources, Microsoft have NO excuses for releasing such poorly programmed software that is supposed to be a final version. Beta, yes. Final, no. It's not a game or media player which just don't work properly and you can ignore them until a patch is released, this is the operating system. Nothing is bug free obviously, but for major problems like this to find their way into "final" releases is just unacceptable.

History repeats itself with Microsoft all too often. They don't care and they don't learn. Oh well, back to distrowatch to see what new freebies are available

Regards,
Jim

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Post #: 40

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 10:34:55 PM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

Here's one (more) perfect example of why Vista sucks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7126902.stm

What an absolute shambles! Microsoft must have had an enormous amount of complaints to do something like this! They certainly wouldn't make a u-turn with something as major as the anti-piracy component of their OS unless it was seriously fubar.

LOL! Jim this article talks about product activation that was introduced with XP, not about the performance of Vista.

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Post #: 41

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 10:37:33 PM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Thing is your average joe consumer doesn't build their own systems. You have a majority of users out there scratching their heads because their games and/or other programs aren't working when they PLUG them in.

Like the same folk who can't get their DOS games running past Windows 98. XP killed my DOS games for me - though I've never tried the DOS Box downloadable utility.

Hold one, Vista comes with XP compatibility mode built in?

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Post #: 42

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 11:32:45 PM

ravinhood

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But does it come with DOS compatibility like XP does for some DOS games? ;) There's still plenty of DOS games I can play on XP without even using DOSBOX and man if you can't use DOSBOX you seriously have issues with easy to use interfaces. ;) It's nothing more than mount c: c:\
and mount d: d:\ -t cdrom and you're in business. Man I'm 50+ years old and I can easily use it. Cmon you gonna let an old man outdo yah? ;)

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Post #: 43

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 11:36:45 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
LOL! Jim this article talks about product activation that was introduced with XP, not about the performance of Vista.

Erm, the article is actually talking about Vista disabling itself. I know activation came in with XP, but what's that got to do with the article about Vista?

The headline on the BBC page is "'Kill switch' dropped from Vista". I was talking about MS making another mess of their OS and didn't mention performance at all in my last post.

Were you talking about someone else's post in this thread?? Can you clarify please?

Cheers,
Jim

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 44

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 11:38:49 PM

ravinhood

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Get em Jim get em ;)

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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/4/2007 11:49:52 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Get em Jim get em ;)

Now now, ravinhood, no stirring please!

I was (and still am) a bit perplexed by Adam's post, I must admit.

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2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 46

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 12:54:39 AM

Terminus

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This is interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7126902.stm

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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 1:50:19 AM

pad152

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Remember 10,000 flys can't be wrong!, Sh*t must be great!

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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 2:03:05 AM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573
Really though, if you have the hardware it is not a bad OS. But it clearly wasn't necessary.

Pffftt....of course it was necessary...how else could M$ continue to make monopoly profits??!!

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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 3:19:16 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Get em Jim get em ;)

Now now, ravinhood, no stirring please!

I was (and still am) a bit perplexed by Adam's post, I must admit.

I'm not stirring whatever gave you that idea? Some of you people just read too much into my posts think they mean something YOU think they mean.

Until you can look into my mind and actually see what I am thinking you need to stop thinking what you think I'm thinking.

@SMK but, isn't Bill still getting royalties for every installed copy of XP? Why would he need to make another OS to monoplize the market? My theory is he wants to just make joe consumer that already has XP upgrade to something else and waste more money, the new buyers are already getting screwed and many of them will end up having to back buy XP so it's a win/win for Bill once again.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 12/5/2007 3:36:01 AM >

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Post #: 50

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 3:28:59 AM

Zap

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Agreed. A real improvement in the OS would warrant an upgrade and forking out my money. But MS'S scheduled money making skeem angers me and I want to

< Message edited by Zap -- 12/5/2007 3:30:00 AM >

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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 4:59:02 AM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

@SMK but, isn't Bill still getting royalties for every installed copy of XP? Why would he need to make another OS to monoplize the market?

'cos he gets a royalty for every upgrade too. No-one upgrades from XP to XP, but significant nubmers are upgrading from XP to Vista..that's all extra profit.....

And humans are curious creatures..........without Vista more & more people would look to other OS's just to see what they'er like...vista gives them that while keeping the money exactly where it should be

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Post #: 52

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 9:02:32 AM

MrBoats

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I bought a new laptop in July to replace the old one and the desktop. Vista Home basic came with it. I am tempted to go back to XP, but I don't want to have to go through the reinstallation process and all that that entails. I'm able to run all of the Matrix titles I own fine under Vista. The RAM usage is my chief complaint, but readyboost seems to help in that area. If I had a choice I'd have picked XP, but I can live with Vista. I did figure out that it's a bad idea to install anythoing in the program files folder. That's my two cents on the matter.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 53

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 9:36:07 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
LOL! Jim this article talks about product activation that was introduced with XP, not about the performance of Vista.

Erm, the article is actually talking about Vista disabling itself. I know activation came in with XP, but what's that got to do with the article about Vista?

The headline on the BBC page is "'Kill switch' dropped from Vista". I was talking about MS making another mess of their OS and didn't mention performance at all in my last post.

Yebut, you missed the line: "It was introduced in 2006 as a voluntary option, but became mandatory with the release of Vista.."

Meaning it was something that plagued XP albeit voluntarily too.

I mean whaddaya you expect the BBC to give us? A swipe at "Vista" (the boogey man sensation of the moment as evidenced by this thread) or a swipe at "prroduct activation"?

This was the same outfit that announced weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It's the m-e-d-i-a, man!

Whatever is in vogue makes a headline doncha know?

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 12/5/2007 9:40:32 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 9:39:17 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Get em Jim get em ;)

I repeat, I am not going to die having an epitaph;"he supported Microsoft".

I just like Vista and it likes me

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Post #: 55

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 9:31:13 PM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Yebut, you missed the line: "It was introduced in 2006 as a voluntary option, but became mandatory with the release of Vista.."

Meaning it was something that plagued XP albeit voluntarily too.

I mean whaddaya you expect the BBC to give us? A swipe at "Vista" (the boogey man sensation of the moment as evidenced by this thread) or a swipe at "prroduct activation"?

This was the same outfit that announced weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It's the m-e-d-i-a, man!

Whatever is in vogue makes a headline doncha know?

My bold..

Yes, it was supposedly "optional" in Windows XP but if you didn't check each and every XP update, it would've installed itself automatically. I am wary of Microsoft pulling some sh*t like that so I turn off automatic updates and do it all manually along with checking what each update file entails. I caught that one and told it to never d/l it.

Average users won't (and generally don't know how) to do that so whether they have Vista or XP - they have that jacked up anti-piracy software in their system. Just when you thought it was getting bad in games.

It's a good thing they're taking it out of Vista as that was a major concern for me in having it mandatory.

< Message edited by NefariousKoel -- 12/5/2007 9:32:50 PM >

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RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 10:46:41 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
I repeat, I am not going to die having an epitaph;"he supported Microsoft".

I just like Vista and it likes me

Well, you're one of the lucky ones Adam. I don't want Vista because I work in IT and see MS fallout from crap products every day. Vista offers me nothing innovative enough to spend �1,000 on a new, high enough specced PC to run it. I can get better performance and just as pretty gfx from a Linux box on a PC made from spares. I can play all the latest games on my P4 XP pooter, so I'm quite happy.

Windows is simply a cash cow and MS are milking it. Good for them and good for those like you who enjoy the experience with Vista. I can think of many better things to spend my money on.

Regards,
Jim

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 57

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/5/2007 10:49:28 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I'm not stirring whatever gave you that idea? Some of you people just read too much into my posts think they mean something YOU think they mean. Until you can look into my mind and actually see what I am thinking you need to stop thinking what you think I'm thinking.

LOL!

Ok, I concede the point ravinhood. I misunderstood your motives and profusely apologise. If I offended you in any way, I am sincerely sorry for that.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 58

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/6/2007 12:59:24 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

Windows is simply a cash cow and MS are milking it. Good for them and good for those like you who enjoy the experience with Vista. I can think of many better things to spend my money on.

Regards,
Jim

You know Jim, I honestly agree with you on that. I still can't get over a company that sells a product that requires its owner to invest further in security software because it's software has vulnerabilities. Further, a company that provides things such as Windows Firewall and the new Windows Defender that must be turned off to run marginally better specialist security software like Norton or McAfee etc.

And then has the gall to launch its own separate Anit-Virus software, one has to buy because it knows its own OS is at risk!

To me there are laws being broken here: "Buy Windows, we know its unsecure, so now go buy our extra software to make it secure!"

Security software isn't like Microsoft Office! It's not an extra! MS is informing us that a fundamental aspect of its OS is broken, "so now buy something extra to fix it - or we warned you"?

Now that's what I don't like.

But as a new PC buyer, someone unskilled in DYI IT, statements saying how bad Vista is, can really have an affect on my purchasing decisions. The opinions here nearly did.

And all I'm saying is: "Hey let's stop the hype. Vista in November 2007 is different from Vista in January 2006. Buy the right hardware from a capable vendor and you will have a great time".

Kind regards,
Adam.

(in reply to leastonh1)

Post #: 59

RE: WinXP widens lead over Vista - 12/6/2007 1:34:10 AM

leastonh1

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Hi Adam,

They are breaking the law and are blatant about it too. But, let's face it, they can afford to be. Was it IE they were being fined $1m per day for a few years ago? I remember the amount, but not the reason. $1m per day!!!! That's an outrageous amount of money, but mere pocket change to the likes of MS. The fines they get aren't punitive enough. They should be high enough to hurt the business directly or they are ineffective and can be ignored.

I also understand and appreciate your position if you lack the knowledge or wherewithall to build a PC. I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that, but I'm still in the same position as everyone else. At some point, I either spend a fair amount of money and go with Vista (or a successor) or I walk away. I don't like Macs (don't even ask hehe!), so that only really leaves Linux.

I do love Linux as an OS, but the games are the thing I would miss dearly. The OS itself and all the other software is as good as and often better than Windows. It's more stable and secure, needs very modest specs to run quickly and is completely free. It's a hell of a dilemma and MS are betting, up to now anyway, that people will go for Windows and risk it.

My honest opinion is that those safe bet days are numbered. Linux is maturing very nicely now and is obviously viable enough for the likes of Dell and some other big investors. Like it or not, Ubuntu has done an amazing marketing job on Linux and has some heavyweight investment behind the project. It's not going anywhere and MS can't buy them out. MS are interested in Linux too, which probably indicates just how worried they are, as they should be. I think MS will, sooner or later, have to get their act together and improve quality control or begin to go into decline. It won't happen quickly, but it's coming and may have already started. The rumours are that Vista sales aren't up to expectations, XP has gone back on sale because customers don't want Vista. That's the market speaking and even MS can't afford to ignore that. People are sick to death of flawed releases and the endless frustrations of running MS software.

I am glad there are people out there who are getting on alright with Vista. It really saddens me at this time of year especially that some have invested money they probably don't have on a piece of equipment that won't work properly until patches are released.

Regards,
Jim

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 60