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3 full games later - 12/9/2007 1:17:16 PM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline
Hi,
I trounced Europe as France, Turkey and Spain at hard AI. The main reason is the AI. DOW's out of the blue, but no action, passive armies and fleets, no cooperation against superior enemies. No attacking of the leading nation - nothing.

As France, I savaged Austria, Prussia, Russia in turns, while taking the germanic States and all of Italy. Never touched Spain and Turkey. Ended up with so many troops, I could fill everything twice over. Lots of Freestates gave me even more corps. So I started to outbuild the british fleet togehter with Netherlands, Venetia, Naples and Denmark. The game ended with french troops in London in 1813.

As Spain I took the entire Mediterranean including Gibraltar, ending the game conquering most of the german states - over in 1813.

As Turkey I took Afrika, Italy, parts of Russia and Austria and got so many units, my cities couldnt hold any more. Ended in 1814.


I had a few good campaigns (as France attacking Austria - I guess because Vienna is so close) with real battles, but usually the resistance was brief and unfocused. Also the AI takes lots of lopsided battles, often losing the entire force, thus giving easy VP.

My conclusion is:
As a veteran EiA player I didnt even have to look at manual. Some things took me a while to figure out, but overall it worked fine. Very good are the saves of the last phases! Helped me a lot at start. I can imagine, that new players will have a hard time with this. Menus can be well hidden and if youre not sure, what it is youre supposed to do, it undoubtedly gets hard.

The map is beautiful, the counters still ugly, but after a while, overview counts more and that works fine.

As expected, the AI cant keep up. It works fine to learn the ropes, do landings, naval supply - all these things.
So I recommend to play until the mechanics are learned and then go out and meet live opponents. Thats where I am now. LOOKING FOR GROUP - 7 players email!

And finally I suggest to make standard setups for various countries downloadable somewhere. That way, new players will get some help.



_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged
Post #: 1
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 1:29:28 PM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline
heh, yeah the AI seems rather stupid at setup, movement and diplomacy.

Great Britain seems to want to declare war on spain alot, so most of the time, their fleet is in Gibraltar and a light fleet with 10 and Transport is in london, they make first move and send 1 heavy with 20 and nelson to blocade the crossing, rest just stay.

as spain i tried this, in second half of 1807, i got England to unconditionally surrender, they had previously surrendered to the French, England is dead and i ended the game there as russia was still at war with england. The british fleet was transport fleet and a heavy fleet with 12 ships. No way for England to recover that as i own ireland, scotland and wales, i would kick england each 18 months if nothing else lol

as france i won a game vs england always in 1805, as he went to war using the same tactic vs spain as when i played spain, so fast wipe out in naval, then just move to london, problem here is, i would wipe out all ships and england is dead :(

looking forward to AI updates, so this is not going to happen so much, ohh yeah, reason AI loss their ships is, they dont try to intercept at gibraltar, so you move in and blocade and spain goes in with corps to siege, if England normally just try to use their ships properly, then no way for spain to win a breach, as long as there is 5I.

(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 2
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 1:30:18 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
Yes, I too am seeing that the mechanics are just a learning curve. There do not appear to be any ( yet) bugs that cripple anything.

As for AI, no one, and I mean no one, gets AI right and the more complicated the game the harder it is to make a competent AI. People do not realize that an AI is a bear, EVERYTHING the computer does has to be thought up ahead of time by a person and programmed in. The more options, the more choices, the more tactics a game has the less able to be great will be the AI.

And this game is loaded with complex phases.

(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 3
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 1:35:26 PM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Yes, I too am seeing that the mechanics are just a learning curve. There do not appear to be any ( yet) bugs that cripple anything.

As for AI, no one, and I mean no one, gets AI right and the more complicated the game the harder it is to make a competent AI. People do not realize that an AI is a bear, EVERYTHING the computer does has to be thought up ahead of time by a person and programmed in. The more options, the more choices, the more tactics a game has the less able to be great will be the AI.

And this game is loaded with complex phases.


And to top it off, many players start with lots of experience. Yes, the AI has a hard time.

_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 4
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 1:46:09 PM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline
dont know, spain like in all games declare war on portugal and have a few corps setup in Cuidad Rodrigo, when i get portugal, the AI sends 1 corps and leader into the north forage 2 to avoid the lapse of war, but if another AI takes Portugal, there seems to be a lapse of war constantly and then spain much of the time, declare war on the new owner to get back the country.

(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 5
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 2:51:10 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
Against the AI I always opt to accept conditional surrenders. This helps make up for some of its shortcomings and prevents me from hurting them too much too fast.

It seems the only time the AI declares war is over minors. I don’t think the AI actually declares against major powers. And it doesn’t seem to select if so and so attacks minor back down for its allies, so it’ll go to war with allies over a 2 money per quarter minor country.

Since there is no real diplomacy or haggling in the game with AI powers, a new step needs to be added to the game. Whenever a conflict over minor country declarations occur and no one has back down chosen, there needs to be an interrupt that allows the AI to weigh the loss of Political points against the potential gain of the minor. And if the AI decides not to declare, then it should be allowed to back down (without political cost).

The AI should also be able to weight its forces against its potential opponent’s forces. Humans can tally up what a country has lost and potentially built up to this point in the game, so the AI should simply know this to prevent a situation like Prussia with a standing army of 30 factors going to war with France and its standing army of 200 when a tiny minor is at issue.

Has anyone seen the AI actually declare war on a major power when a minor wasn’t involved? There needs to be some kind of weighted trigger so AI majors will band together as a coalition against a country getting too far ahead in VP’s.

If X country is ahead of all other countries in VP’s by X% and ahead of this major by XX%, then majors at war who meet this condition should offer/accept informal peace with each other and attempt to form a coalition alliance against the victorious nation.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m loving the game. It’s just that there is a lot of room for improvements.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/9/2007 2:52:42 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 6
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 4:28:54 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline
The AI declared war(France and prussia)on me (England). I have no troops on the mainland and was not at war. I have not taken any minors at all. Still getting the game down. I think its somewhere in 1808 or 09.

It seems to me that the AI does declare on majors.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Against the AI I always opt to accept conditional surrenders. This helps make up for some of its shortcomings and prevents me from hurting them too much too fast.

It seems the only time the AI declares war is over minors. I don’t think the AI actually declares against major powers. And it doesn’t seem to select if so and so attacks minor back down for its allies, so it’ll go to war with allies over a 2 money per quarter minor country.

Since there is no real diplomacy or haggling in the game with AI powers, a new step needs to be added to the game. Whenever a conflict over minor country declarations occur and no one has back down chosen, there needs to be an interrupt that allows the AI to weigh the loss of Political points against the potential gain of the minor. And if the AI decides not to declare, then it should be allowed to back down (without political cost).

The AI should also be able to weight its forces against its potential opponent’s forces. Humans can tally up what a country has lost and potentially built up to this point in the game, so the AI should simply know this to prevent a situation like Prussia with a standing army of 30 factors going to war with France and its standing army of 200 when a tiny minor is at issue.

Has anyone seen the AI actually declare war on a major power when a minor wasn’t involved? There needs to be some kind of weighted trigger so AI majors will band together as a coalition against a country getting too far ahead in VP’s.

If X country is ahead of all other countries in VP’s by X% and ahead of this major by XX%, then majors at war who meet this condition should offer/accept informal peace with each other and attempt to form a coalition alliance against the victorious nation.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m loving the game. It’s just that there is a lot of room for improvements.

Jim




_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 7
RE: 3 full games later - 12/9/2007 5:43:54 PM   
yammahoper

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline
So far I as Russia I have beat the turk and last night france. 

The turks were far to easy, though they did launch one big army into a small 10I/4c army I had landed and smashed it, capturing the leader.  They had two respectable armies but kept sending single corps against me.  When I finally besieged Constantanople, they surrenderd (I am set to accept conditionals).

I do think a wars end needs to be more clearly announced.  The repatriation of all your forces is a clear give, but at first I was like "HOW DID I GET THERE?!!' and then the victory dawned on me.  I have learned to keep my nation status box open most of the time now for the info it provides.

The war against france occured because Fr declared war on me when I attacked Tu.  Oddly, the Fr never helped the turk, unless they lent money, and I have no idea how to easily learn that info.  Reading that scrolling box is a PAIN that I have yet been willing to endure for long.

From Morroco I landed some corps in Fr.  I thought Sp might DOW me when I went for Morroco, but she did not (that would have been the end of my fleet).  In Fr I fought off the single corp there, but then Davout and a small stack counter attacked and I was captured after my first true butt whooping in a battle.  I was rather pleased and landed my other army north of hooland, captured that minor, then advanced south and took amsterdam, resulting in the holland fleets being scuttled.  I had my own fleets in the blockade box with the english hoping to earn some easy pp, but it did not seem i gained any points from it.  Next I tried to take out a french fleet, but was repelled and force to retreat north.  The Fr took the Netherlands back from me, and by then I launched three corps towards Paris while fighting all the corps that had advanced to the north.  Overwhelmed, I got on my ships and ran, landing were davout still was, and won that fight, but the Fr ran the blockade and fled to the port south.  The brits went last in the next naval, returned home to replinish their ships, then went first next and resumed their blockades.  Meanwhile I was going to get at least one free attack on paris the month of an eco phase and paris had 1I in garrison.  That's when the Fr gave me a conditional.

The only real glaring flaw I saw was when I fled my conquered minor (the one just north of the Netherlands) the Fr stopped pushing their advantage and did not take the minor from me, which allowed me to drop in 20I+ every three months and Cav and Guard (my guard corp was wiped out twice) which kept the war going, because I had lost Netherlands.  Also, the Fr never advamved on my Italian minors, were I had placed some strong garrisons in the hope I could hold on to Naples (where I had ships in port waiting to be picked up).

The AI is not awesome, and for an experienced EiA player like me, persistance seemed to always pay off.

I did notice that each nation can be run by a human, though all on the same computer right now.  That means human versus human is still possible, albeit in a limited fashion (though I recall a day when playing a game that required we all take turns on a single computer would have seemed a marvelous innovation, lol).

AI will be patched, I am sure.  I also hope some of the interfaces are changed.  Even though I know them now, some are still a pain.  Well, I have a confession.  In a table top game no one is as anal as the computer in doing everything in the right order in the specific phase, which is to be expected, but still ugly, especially when it is 2am and the cost of mistakes begin to accumalate.

yamma

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...nothing is more chaotic than a battle won...

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 8
RE: 3 full games later - 12/10/2007 2:19:14 AM   
prielo

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
I managed to drive France into civil disorder while totally eliminating the entire french army. In June 1808. Playing GB.

This AI needs improving. Really.


Greets

Patrick

(in reply to yammahoper)
Post #: 9
RE: 3 full games later - 12/10/2007 2:12:24 PM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline
It does.

Look at the CWIF forum, they are writing up guidelines for the individual behaviour of the major nations, based on situation of alliances, forces, control, winning and gameyear etc. We have lots of experienced players here, who could do the same thing.
Actually that could be quite interresting. All we need is a go-ahead from the developer and some kind of structuring.





_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to prielo)
Post #: 10
RE: 3 full games later - 12/10/2007 2:41:40 PM   
Cossaky

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 12/4/2007
From: Sanaa, Yemen
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

I do think a wars end needs to be more clearly announced.  The repatriation of all your forces is a clear give, but at first I was like "HOW DID I GET THERE?!!' and then the victory dawned on me.  I have learned to keep my nation status box open most of the time now for the info it provides.


I had the same experience. I was knee deep in Austria as Prussia and suddenly my forces were gone. I thought I'd made some sort of disasterous supply decision, until I realized my men had been transported to the nearest friendly area due to Austria's surrender.

I think this brings up one of the more interesting aspects of EiA that is often overlooked. Most wargames are just a single, drawn-out, brawl. EiA offers an actual series of wars with "time out" periods in-between. One of my favorite boardgame experiences was getting crushed by the French and slowly building both his trust and my army during the course of the enforced 24 month peace.

I turned on him at a critical moment and joined the Russians and Brits, cornering Napoleon against the Turkish coastline. Since he had nowhere to retreat after we won the battle, Napoleon and his best corps were captured. Now THAT is what I live for in EiA. And THAT is why this game is unlike anything else out there on the market. Of course you have to PBEM to get that level of excitement, but let me assure you it's worth it.

(in reply to yammahoper)
Post #: 11
RE: 3 full games later - 12/10/2007 2:44:42 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
As soon as we're through dealing with the critical issues and bugs, we will be turning our focus to the AI. Your feedback in this area is definitely appreciated!

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Cossaky)
Post #: 12
RE: 3 full games later - 12/10/2007 3:50:42 PM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline
Here the link to the ubiquitous Froonp's attempt at Japan:

AI example

Could something like that be used?

_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: 3 full games later - 12/11/2007 1:00:58 PM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline
Now I tried Austria as well - ended in control of all of central Europe. I set up the rotation between Turkey, Prussia and France. Half the DOW's came from them, though. Late in the game, around 1810, Austria was a giant, Prussia reduced to a few provinces - still they DOW'ed AU . After a brief visit, they were reduced to 2 provinces and the game ended. Never fought Britain (obviously ), Russia and Spain.

I might want to try Prussia as well, but I dont expect any trouble to get a win. Britain, I'm sure, I dont have to try, beeing a "sure" thing.


_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 14
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