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Complaints - 12/9/2007 3:09:40 AM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Guys, something I think we need to remember: Marshall put a LOT of effort into writing this game. Yes, it needs work. But, it's also a very interesting piece of software, trying to port one of the most complicated games ever to PC. I think he has done a great service.

Perhaps we should think of how we would feel if we were in Marshall's shoes: 4 years effort, and nothing but complaints. I wouldn't be doing well if that happened to me. Probably most of you wouldn't either.

I think he has done an excellent job. Remember, this is version 1. Not 1.x, 1, period. There WILL be bugs.

I've decided I'm going to change my attitude:

I asked myself the question: Would you pay $100 for the privilege of

1) Being a beta tester, and
2) Making it more likely that one of your favorite games gets finished?

My answer is yes.

For those of you who haven't played the board version, I can understand your reluctance, because you haven't grown to love the game. And, it IS hard to play, even on the board.

Let's consider this what it is: The start of something great. We have an opportunity to be in on the ground floor of something big.

Would you pay for the privilege of playing the new version of Dungeons & Dragons? Or, if Advanced Squad Leader were ported? Or, any of a hundred other games? In many cases, yes, I would. What game EVER was perfect the first time it came out?

Let's think of this as a work in progress, and give some credit for a job well done, even though it's not finished yet.
Post #: 1
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 3:24:39 AM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline 		Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great job Marshall, et. al.

I owned the board game, drooled over it, read the rules a dozen times and never got to play it.

I as happy as a pig i s**t right now about this game.

I know there will be bugs. They will be fixed, however.

I think more people should post a thanks to Marshall and the rest of the crew for making this game possible.

Thank you Guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by Chris Trog -- 12/9/2007 3:25:39 AM >

_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 2
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 3:34:39 AM   
Suvorov928


Posts: 157
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		It is a shame you never got to actually play the board game.  It is an amazing game, and with 7 players, easilly one of the best war games ever.

I am already loving this version and cannot wait for the bugs to be fixed and the A.I. updated.  I will PBEM as much as possible, but would also love the oppurtunity to play solo against a compitent A.I.


(in reply to New York Jets)
Post #: 3
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 3:41:12 AM   
pakron

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hear, hear!

Thanks, Marshall!

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 4
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 3:41:39 AM   
Irish Guards


Posts: 143
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		If you are willing to spend a wee bit a time ...
You will actually be playing one of the best Wargames Ever .. By far ..
If you have not played an ADG game before .. They are rare .. Also if you get to play a ADG game system ...
You will actually agree with why the games are shall wee say ... Complex ..

Once you learn the comp abilties and play a few .. Turns .. Pbem ... 7 players ...
Ney easy ....
IrishDragoonGuards

(in reply to Suvorov928)
Post #: 5
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 4:18:39 AM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		FWIW, Eric Rutins made a comment over at Wargamer.com today:

quote:

One more comment in general for those that prefer AI play (though EIA is really designed as the ultimate multi-player Napoleonic game) - after we resolve critical issues and any bugs in the first update or two, the next priority will be ongoing AI improvements.


It's fair to say Matrix clearly recognizes some more work is needed, including release of the other scenarios and an editor. But for right now, the game is playable and I've been having fun with it.

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 6
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 4:25:22 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Normally I'm one to buy a PC wargame that seriously tries to bring back the glory of the board game days.

However, on this occasion I haven't bought EiA because since 1995 when I got my first PC, I've been burned by too many bad game designs. Unbelievably very recently too.

On this basis I can only make a very broad observation as a potential customer, one not a particular fan of the EiA boardgame and one who would absolutely love to support a local Australian designer - I own the full WiF collection. I'm the type of guy whose money this game should be attracting.

But in the history of our hobby, the games that have always sold well are the ones that keep the User Interaction simple.

I had my doubts as to how EiA would solve the AI diplomacy problems that even the venerable PC Diplomacy couldn't touch. But we're not even at the stage of discussing that.

However, just below AI and slighly above graphics, UI is everything in a PC game for me. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like sufficient attention has be given to this critical area and an unplayable game might as well stay unreleased.

Jimmer, as for your statement about paying for the priviledge of being a beta tester - are you refering to the retail version of EiA as we have it now - are you saying it feels like a beta? Or are you refering to the chance to have tested it prior to release?

I've tested games officially in the past and one role a good beta tester has, is to tell the designer when something doesn't work. Accordingly I've stopped an entire design dead in its tracks. Based on feedback from the everyday punter, it seems that's what should have hapened here.

AH's Third Reich PC, came with 2 printed manuals - one for the rules and another for the UI. That's one other thing it seems, this game, ADG and Matrix could have learned from.

Another Public Beta game? Not right now thanks.

It's a shame as AGEOD's Nap game is missing the mark right now,
Adam.

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 7
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 4:38:55 AM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline 		heh, great game, it got flaws, but its common issue now adays, i dont care, i love it still and will now try to play with other players, man the diplomacy is great fun in EIA :)

(in reply to Irish Guards)
Post #: 8
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 5:14:50 AM   
WJPalmer1

 

Posts: 81
Joined: 9/20/2004
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline 		Well said, Jimmer. This is a terrific game and will only get better. I know I'm already hooked -- playing every spare minute and obsessing about it at all othe rtimes. Job EXCEPTIONALLY WELL DONE!!

< Message edited by exp101 -- 12/9/2007 5:16:22 AM >

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 9
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 5:19:35 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks guys, Marshall and the testers spent a tremendous of time on this and it has definitely been a long road. We realize there are some problems and we are working as fast as we can to find and fix those, but it's great to also hear that a lot of you are having fun and enjoying EIA on the computer.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to WJPalmer1)
Post #: 10
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 5:35:12 AM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Normally I'm one to buy a PC wargame that seriously tries to bring back the glory of the board game days.

However, on this occasion I haven't bought EiA because since 1995 when I got my first PC, I've been burned by too many bad game designs. Unbelievably very recently too.

On this basis I can only make a very broad observation as a potential customer, one not a particular fan of the EiA boardgame and one who would absolutely love to support a local Australian designer - I own the full WiF collection. I'm the type of guy whose money this game should be attracting.

But in the history of our hobby, the games that have always sold well are the ones that keep the User Interaction simple.

I had my doubts as to how EiA would solve the AI diplomacy problems that even the venerable PC Diplomacy couldn't touch. But we're not even at the stage of discussing that.

However, just below AI and slighly above graphics, UI is everything in a PC game for me. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like sufficient attention has be given to this critical area and an unplayable game might as well stay unreleased.

Jimmer, as for your statement about paying for the priviledge of being a beta tester - are you refering to the retail version of EiA as we have it now - are you saying it feels like a beta? Or are you refering to the chance to have tested it prior to release?

I've tested games officially in the past and one role a good beta tester has, is to tell the designer when something doesn't work. Accordingly I've stopped an entire design dead in its tracks. Based on feedback from the everyday punter, it seems that's what should have hapened here.

AH's Third Reich PC, came with 2 printed manuals - one for the rules and another for the UI. That's one other thing it seems, this game, ADG and Matrix could have learned from.

Another Public Beta game? Not right now thanks.

It's a shame as AGEOD's Nap game is missing the mark right now,
Adam.


I agree with you on the AGEOD point. I'm going round and round over at their message board about the horrible rules book for their Civil War game and lack of information as to why thing happen in the game, if you will.


_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 11
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 5:36:26 AM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Suvorov928

It is a shame you never got to actually play the board game.  It is an amazing game, and with 7 players, easilly one of the best war games ever.

I am already loving this version and cannot wait for the bugs to be fixed and the A.I. updated.  I will PBEM as much as possible, but would also love the oppurtunity to play solo against a compitent A.I.




Once I figure things out (it's been about 20 years since I read the rules) I'm looking forward to playing a PBEM 'learning game'. It will be great.



_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to Suvorov928)
Post #: 12
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 11:56:03 AM   
chuckj118

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: SC, USA
Status: offline 		I would also like to put my Hoorah in here!!!  The game is already great!  Once the bugs are worked out it will be FANTASTIC!

Being a programmer I know this has to have been a monumental task.  I look forward to spending many more hours acting as your unofficial play-tester.

As to the price of the game, I have already gotten about 40 hours of play time out of it so thats down to $2 an hour already.  I'll have the per hour cost down under a buck in no time!

Thanks again

(in reply to New York Jets)
Post #: 13
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 1:08:34 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Normally I'm one to buy a PC wargame that seriously tries to bring back the glory of the board game days.

However, on this occasion I haven't bought EiA because since 1995 when I got my first PC, I've been burned by too many bad game designs. Unbelievably very recently too.

On this basis I can only make a very broad observation as a potential customer, one not a particular fan of the EiA boardgame and one who would absolutely love to support a local Australian designer - I own the full WiF collection. I'm the type of guy whose money this game should be attracting.

But in the history of our hobby, the games that have always sold well are the ones that keep the User Interaction simple.

I had my doubts as to how EiA would solve the AI diplomacy problems that even the venerable PC Diplomacy couldn't touch. But we're not even at the stage of discussing that.

However, just below AI and slighly above graphics, UI is everything in a PC game for me. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like sufficient attention has be given to this critical area and an unplayable game might as well stay unreleased.

Jimmer, as for your statement about paying for the priviledge of being a beta tester - are you refering to the retail version of EiA as we have it now - are you saying it feels like a beta? Or are you refering to the chance to have tested it prior to release?

I've tested games officially in the past and one role a good beta tester has, is to tell the designer when something doesn't work. Accordingly I've stopped an entire design dead in its tracks. Based on feedback from the everyday punter, it seems that's what should have hapened here.

AH's Third Reich PC, came with 2 printed manuals - one for the rules and another for the UI. That's one other thing it seems, this game, ADG and Matrix could have learned from.

Another Public Beta game? Not right now thanks.

It's a shame as AGEOD's Nap game is missing the mark right now,
Adam.

There is very little actually WRONG with the UI. It is , considering the complex nature of the rules, in fact just fine.

I love to complain and I am sure I will find more things to do just that. But the game is playable on release. It may take a few tries to figure out all the UI tricks and gadgets, but as far as I can tell, everything is there. But that is true of most if not ALL games, complicated rules require more UI clicks and such.

This game was hard to play as a BOARD game.

Nothing Beta about this game.


(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 14
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 1:30:58 PM   
Norden_slith


Posts: 166
Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
Status: offline 		Yes, once again thx for the game!
Im looking forward to having the time of my life playing pbem.
As a veteran EiA player, the soloplaying is firstly to get the mechanics straight and secondly to get a feel of each country. I didnt expect the AI to be very capable. How could it? As the game is pretty close to EiA, I started out as a veteran and most PC-game AI's cant keep up with experienced players.

I had no bugs, could always get back via the very good save-options and was allowed to march through Europe at breakneck speed. Im happy and looking forward to many miles with this one! Thanks again!


_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 15
RE: Complaints - 12/9/2007 2:42:42 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Chalk me up as one who loves it. I was very vocal about the price prior to release, but I ended up drinking the Kool-Aid, and am glad I did.

Having never palyed the board game, and only a couple of years into my present game, I am not yet able to identify "brain-dead" A.I.. Playing as Spain, Turkey declared war in the first turn and marched across Northern Africa to launch an invasion from Morocco. I haven't been keeping tabs on wheat the A.I. powers are doing to each other, but will start looking closer.

(in reply to Norden_slith)
Post #: 16
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 2:14:31 AM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Jimmer, as for your statement about paying for the priviledge of being a beta tester - are you refering to the retail version of EiA as we have it now - are you saying it feels like a beta? Or are you refering to the chance to have tested it prior to release?

I'm referring to what we have now. But, I am not saying it "feels like a beta". I'm saying that I will THINK that way, because it's true. If someone had said to me, "Hey, we're developing this game, but we need cash to keep the team working. Would you be willing to pay to help insure it will actually make it out the door?" My answer would have been "Absolutely! How else can I help?"

I think it's full production (although, like most games, it will require a couple of revisions before it's "really" ready). But, thinking "beta" helps me have a better attitude.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 17
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 2:50:11 AM   
kc_chiefs

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 11/29/2004
Status: offline 		I paid 80 bucks for this game. I therefore have a right to complain. Now I have tried to keep my complaints to a correct "tone" in my posts but please get off of the soapbox and turn to reality. This is a money-making business. We pay money and therefore have the right to give you the business.

I work for a game company too - folks gripe about our work too but you will never hear me trying to back pedal on any issues they have with our products.

We all understand that Marshall did a good job. Listen to what we have to say, add in a tutorial, beef up the manual, in other words just listen to what we have to say, make some changes and move on.

_____________________________

Bill Peters

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 18
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 5:27:00 AM   
Murat


Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline 		I would hope what little $$$ we have thrown his way is soothing some of the comments. He has done a great job at the mechanics and from what I have seen of the people here there is no lack of help for improving the AI so soon this will be as perfect as it can be

(in reply to kc_chiefs)
Post #: 19
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 7:38:40 AM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline 		I'm disappointed that I can not purchase this game now as I don't have a credit card with me in this real war. However, waiting until this spring will allow Matrix to fix any bugs that you guys that have the privledge to play right now will find and report. What is good now will be fantastic by then. So hats off to Marshall, Erik and the rest at Matrix for seeing this difficult project through to completion.

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 20
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 7:46:31 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		For a game of this magnitude you all should be thankful it has a workable AI at all. It's worth the money for the PBEM game alone really. This is just one of those gems in the rough and those that are specifically solo players should really give this one a try in multiplayer mode. This is one of those games of "Don't do as I do, Do as I say" ;) Once you've experienced the multiplayer game of this you'll find it hard to go back to playing it solo imho.

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 21
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 8:04:44 AM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

For a game of this magnitude you all should be thankful it has a workable AI at all. It's worth the money for the PBEM game alone really. This is just one of those gems in the rough and those that are specifically solo players should really give this one a try in multiplayer mode. This is one of those games of "Don't do as I do, Do as I say" ;) Once you've experienced the multiplayer game of this you'll find it hard to go back to playing it solo imho.


This is exactly what I'm thinking.

_____________________________

"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."

- Casey Stengel -

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 22
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 8:18:05 AM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline 		Ditto

(in reply to New York Jets)
Post #: 23
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 5:06:06 PM   
yammahoper

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline 		Gaming pushes hardware and software development like nothing else.  So in 15 yrs, we can all look back as even older gamers and talk about how the AI at the turn of the century had to walk 2 miles up hill to make a good decision.

Still, playing is fun, which says it all. 

yamma

_____________________________

...nothing is more chaotic than a battle won...

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 24
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 6:15:01 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

For a game of this magnitude you all should be thankful it has a workable AI at all.

THAT's for sure! I tried porting just the map for this game several years ago (so we could store the locations of the chits, and thus be able to put the game away between sessions). I gave up after about a month of coding.

Now, some of the interface stuff is easier than the map was, but still, there's a PILE of stuff in this game that has to be coded to make it work. The map alone would be child's play compared to the whole game, but I got myself stuck on just doing the map!

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 25
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 6:22:17 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

For a game of this magnitude you all should be thankful it has a workable AI at all. It's worth the money for the PBEM game alone really. This is just one of those gems in the rough and those that are specifically solo players should really give this one a try in multiplayer mode. This is one of those games of "Don't do as I do, Do as I say" ;) Once you've experienced the multiplayer game of this you'll find it hard to go back to playing it solo imho.

I agree completely. And, I would suggest that, after the first round of bugs gets worked out, that a couple of PBEM games be set up via this forum. We should probably specify that the purpose is to shake out bugs, not to win, right up front. That will avoid some odd end-cases in the first pass at this.

As the game progresses, a "secretary" could give play-by-play analysis on two fronts:

1) Game and UI mechanics, plus
2) strategy and tactics, including how they worked.

I could personally not care less whether I win the first (second? third?) game I play or not. I would rather play that one with open strategizing of some kind:

GB: Hey, Russia! I'm thinking of attacking Sweden and seeing how a war works if you get control and decide to fight me over it. How do you think it will work out?

Russia: I think France and I will clean your clock, but we'll never get you to surrender except informally.

GB: Possibly.

Russia: Yeah, but then you would get to keep Sweden!

GB: I was hoping you wouldn't notice that little detail. :)

Anyhow, you get the idea. A game not for gaming's sake (winning and losing), but one for learning.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 26
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 6:26:43 PM   
Alex Gilbert

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 9/20/2002
From: New York City
Status: offline 		I have to say (not sure why I have to say it, but it sounds good) that I am really impressed with the quality of the game. I have bought several games here (Forge of Freedom, Guns of August to name 2) and loved them, but they all required corrections of a couple of bugs when they initially came out. (again, not to be critical, I love those games, and I accept that a couple of bugs will slip through the testing process)

Thus far I have played 4 games without any significant bug/crash/problem. It took me a little while to familiarize myself with the UI, but the few things that I thought were bugs, were just me doing things incorrectly. I have to give a lot of credit to Marshall and the rest of the team for putting out a remarkably clean game.


Alex

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 27
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 8:27:03 PM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline 		there is no reason to really complain about any games, best one can do is, come with suggestions about possible fixes, that will give the game designers possible new insights on flaws, bugs and improvements.

(in reply to Alex Gilbert)
Post #: 28
RE: Complaints - 12/10/2007 11:25:29 PM   
benza

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline 		The AI is weak but this is a multiplayer game and is most fun played with other humans. Humans got emotions and are unpredictable and not always logical, that makes for a much more varied and challenging game. What makes this game so great is the human interaction, the shifting alliances and different territorial goals of the players. And I must say that I found this game remarkably stable out of the box, not crashed once for me and as far as I see all core stuff works, it is however hard to get information, especially dipolomatic updates and where is Kingdom of Italy and Westphalia? I'm really happy that the game was finally done for computers since it is hard to find 6 other people in real life that can play regularly, even if that adds alot to the game I'm not really going to miss all the times the counters been tossed around the map (even if they looked nicer :p)

(in reply to DodgyDave)
Post #: 29
RE: Complaints - 12/11/2007 12:15:20 AM   
Adraeth


Posts: 400
Joined: 9/24/2007
From: Italy - near Florence
Status: offline 		This game is really stable and for pbem i sense this will be a blockbuster.

However a correct and enjoyable AI will be really appreciated not only by gamers but for the game itself, raising its appeal to a wider range of audience; because this game, with a decent AI will be attractive as it was Europa Universalis years ago or even Imperialism years and years ago .

I am sure Matrix will take a look on feedback and will work on it

_____________________________

www.histwar.fr/
---
Periods i like: age of muskets, napoleonics, modern combat.

(in reply to benza)
Post #: 30
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