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New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/1/2007 3:40:42 PM

Bombur

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Joined: 7/2/2004
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I�m starting a new scenario, depicting the Spanish Civil War (1936-39). The idea is to have a completely reworked SF table, using customized units. Up to now the following units were created.
Tanks:
T-26 (Republican only)
CV-33 (Nationalist only)
Armored cars
UNL-35 (Republican only)
Guns
88mm flak (Nationalist only)-added significant AT capacity
Infantry
Militia (Both sides)
Dinaminteros (workers armed with dinamite-Republican only)
Planes
Ju-87 (Removed much of AT capacity-earlier Ju-87�s weren�t effective against tanks)-Nationalist only
Fiat CR-32 (Nationalist only)
I-16 (Republican only)
He-51 (Nationalist only)
Ships
BB Espa�a class (one ship for each side, the Republicans got the Jaime I and the Nationalists the Espa�a). These ships cannot be built, as they were imported from Britain in early 1900�s.
New structure.
Naval base (Ferrol and possibly the Balearic islands). Can built supplies and ships only
-Any suggestions are welcomed. I�m particularly interested on what equipment was used by both sides. I won�t use those pices that were ocasionally improvised and used in small numbers, just those with significant emlpoyment.
-Map, I�m trying to convert a TOAW map to AT.

< Message edited by Bombur -- 12/1/2007 3:44:24 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/1/2007 8:11:21 PM

Captain Cruft

Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
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Great stuff.

This engine really is a modder's dream come true!

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 2

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/1/2007 11:34:15 PM

Bombur

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
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Some questions.
-Besides the two battleships, what were the Spanish ships?
-How to simulate the infantry? I�m planning three basic units:
1-Militia
2-Rifle units
3-Military police (in Spain those units were better armed than the regular army)
-Question is:
-Were SMG used by infantry in the Civil war? What units?
-Foreign equipment.
-IMO, advanced Soviet, German and Italian reinforcements must be purchased with PP�s. Is there a better alternative?

(in reply to Captain Cruft)

Post #: 3

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/2/2007 1:08:56 AM

PDiFolco

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
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Bombur,
For infantry maybe you could single out the "elite" Nationalist troops. Also it should be important to simulate the general dissension between anarchists and communists in the Republican camp.
Don't think there were real SMG formations in the Spanish army, and overall equipment in the republican side was rather haphazard and hetereogeneous.
Foreign intervention should imho be handled entirely by events, themselves dependent on strategic situation and some random factors, PP (ie economic production) isn't a realistic option. Soviet and Western Europe only contributed material and some "counselors", no real troops.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 4

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/2/2007 1:46:30 AM

Bombur

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Joined: 7/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Bombur,
For infantry maybe you could single out the "elite" Nationalist troops. Also it should be important to simulate the general dissension between anarchists and communists in the Republican camp.
Don't think there were real SMG formations in the Spanish army, and overall equipment in the republican side was rather haphazard and hetereogeneous.
Foreign intervention should imho be handled entirely by events, themselves dependent on strategic situation and some random factors, PP (ie economic production) isn't a realistic option. Soviet and Western Europe only contributed material and some "counselors", no real troops.

-You raised some good points, I was considering how to deal with them.

1-Elite nationalist forces: the Moroccan regulars and the Carlist milita (requetes) were well armed and well trained...but..to what extent a elite rifle SF must be different from a rifle unit from the People�s army? My idea is to create carlist and Moroccan units with high Exp and morale values, but these would be "normal" rifle squads (maybe with more mg�s and mortars...I�m not sure.
2-The "Civil was inside the civil war" (between anarchists and the Negrin government backed by communists) should be simulated. My idea is to have a loss of readiness in mid 1937 and a partial recovery thereafter. Not sure on excatly how to achieve it.
3-European powers. Don�t forget that the Italians send real troops and their navy also took part in the battle. Germany didn�t send land forces but they sent the Kondor legion (air units and flak)
4-We can agree, no SMG�s....but what about Italians? Did they use SMG�s?

-New unit created:
-Military police. Will simulate both the Nationalist Guardia Civil and the Republican asaltos. Slightly better statistics than Rifle SF and a bonus in urban terrain.
-Bilbao armored car (up to know it�s only Republican but I should find a way to make it Nationalist once Bilbao is captured). Idea is maybe to create a separate people for the Basques.

< Message edited by Bombur -- 12/2/2007 1:51:52 AM >

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 5

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/2/2007 2:15:05 AM

Bombur

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New unit created:

Canarias class heavy cruisers (two CA�s for the Nationalists)

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 6

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/2/2007 12:28:08 PM

PDiFolco

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About Elite units, yes, exp/morale can be used to simiulate it, but if troops were better equipped, supplied in ammo and so on they can have their own SFType with better fightinh ability. I'm not that versed in the Spanish civil war to be sure what should be done.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 7

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/2/2007 4:55:06 PM

Bombur

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Maybe we could create a "elite Rifle" SF for these units. Wouldn�t be an upgrade as I want both sides to have the better equipped and less equipped units. These SF would be placed in Carlist units, Moroccan units and Soviet armed units of the People�s army.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 8

RE: New project: Spanish Civil war - 12/5/2007 3:16:30 AM

Bombur

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-Created Basque people. Bilbao armore car can be recruited only in Basque cities. Basques start under republican rule and they suffer a combat and production penalty under nationalist rule.
-Unit created:
-Elite infantry (Moroccan regulars, requetes and Soviet equipped elite units)

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 9

SB-2 and Do-17 - 12/6/2007 1:39:05 AM

Bombur

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-Question:
-How to simulate the ability of fast bombers, like the Do-17 and SB-2, to evade enemy fighters with their high speed. Increasing defense values will make the fighter killers, which they weren�t. I�m considering to increase their hit points to improve survivability

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 10

More units - 12/6/2007 2:37:15 AM

Bombur

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-Armored truck (both sides)

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Post #: 11

RE: More units - 12/6/2007 2:50:22 AM

SMK-at-work

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From: New Zealand
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How about dropping the attack factors of the fighters so they jsut dont' damage the bombers (and each otehr) as much? they were all very lightly armed at the time IIRC - 2 mg's for many including the 109's, a hmg or 2 on the CR32, 4 mg's on later I-16's?

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 12

RE: More units - 12/7/2007 2:24:11 AM

Bombur

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-As a general idea it�s great. But it won�t fix the specific trouble with fast bombers, as decreasing fighter attack factor across the board will make them less effective against slow bombers too.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 13

RE: More units - 12/7/2007 1:08:01 PM

PDiFolco

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There's a unit ability to avoid hits (expressed in %), used for subs, it could be used for the modern bombers. Or as proposed give them more hp, this will decrease their mortality.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 14

RE: More units - 12/7/2007 1:14:07 PM

Alan Sharif

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From: UK.
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This all sounds very promsing indeed. Thanks for all the hard work you are putting into designing this scenario.

_____________________________

A Sharif

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 15

RE: SB-2 and Do-17 - 12/7/2007 1:30:42 PM

seille

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

-Question:
-How to simulate the ability of fast bombers, like the Do-17 and SB-2, to evade enemy fighters with their high speed. Increasing defense values will make the fighter killers, which they weren�t. I�m considering to increase their hit points to improve survivability

I�m not a specialist for the editor, but the following should work here.

Create a new SFTtype Group: "Fast bombers"
Create a new SFT copying the actual bombers and call them "fast bombers"
Add these new SFT "fast bombers" to SFT Group "fast bombers"
Now set the fighters combat stats vs the new SFT group "fast bombers"
Give them less attack power to simulate the more difficult attack.

In addition you could then also modify the new bomber SFT ("beeing attacked" or "hitpoints" setting)

Try it. This should work.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 16

RE: SB-2 and Do-17 - 12/7/2007 9:50:58 PM

tweber

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Whatever approach you take, I would recommend testing it in combat sim mode to see if the results are as intended. Combat sim will run the combat round 200 times and report average results.

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 17

RE: SB-2 and Do-17 - 12/9/2007 2:11:35 AM

Bombur

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-Thank you guys for all the suggestions. I will start by giving these planes an hp bonus. If results aren�t the desired I will try seille�s approach. I will also study this idea of avoid hits.

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 18

RE: More units - 12/9/2007 2:12:55 AM

Bombur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alan Sharif

This all sounds very promsing indeed. Thanks for all the hard work you are putting into designing this scenario.

-Thank you, but I still have doubts to what extent this scenario is feasible. Designing the map and the new units is easier. But then I must look at cards and events.....

(in reply to Alan Sharif)

Post #: 19

RE: More units - 12/9/2007 2:14:04 AM

Bombur

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Question: How to create these wonderful black hexes? I will need them for France and Portugal, as I won�t include the possibility of French or Portuguese interventions.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 20

RE: More units - 12/9/2007 3:47:00 AM

Bombur

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Unit added
Tupolev SB-2. Hit points=390. Baseline for level bombers will be 300 (SM-81)

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Post #: 21

RE: More units - 12/9/2007 3:19:23 PM

Bombur

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Units added
Do-17E
BA-6 (Soviet armored car)
FT-17

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Post #: 22

Foreign help - 12/9/2007 3:24:34 PM

Bombur

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-I�m thinking about using pp�s (foreign currency) to buy foreign help, as both USSR and Germany asked to be paid for help they sent. Republican Spain will start with lots of pp�s (the substantial Spanish gold reserves). Hand cards will be needed to purchase equipment. I�m not sure if Italian troops and equipment should be paid (idea is to have some of them appearing for free and some will be cheaper, as Mussolini sent his own troops)

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 23

RE: Foreign help - 12/10/2007 11:57:02 PM

Bombur

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New unit:

BT-5. Soviet fast tank. Created "fast tracked movement" for this tank.

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Post #: 24

RE: Foreign help - 12/11/2007 1:09:58 AM

tweber

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quote:

Question: How to create these wonderful black hexes? I will need them for France and Portugal, as I won�t include the possibility of French or Portuguese interventions.

There is a black hex sprite that is part of the plains land type. You can use this on areas and then the terrain is blacked out. However, if you want some areas out of play, a simple solution is to make additional regimes that are diplomatically blocked and asleep.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 25

RE: Foreign help - 12/11/2007 2:36:04 AM

Bombur

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Thank you, tweber. I will see what idea is better. Creating new regimes could be a good idea, as I could model the possibility of French or Portuguese intevention, but it will make the scenario too comples, so I�m inclined to use the black hexes (also because the map I�m copying from TOAW uses them-the author will get the credits, btw)

New units
German 37mm gun
German Sdfkz 7

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 26

RE: Foreign help - 12/11/2007 5:27:16 AM

tweber

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If the new regime is asleep and diplomatically blocked, it isn't doing anything so you are not adding complexity for the players. See the 'neutral' regime in the Europe 1939 scenario.

(in reply to Bombur)

Post #: 27

RE: Foreign help - 12/11/2007 11:19:16 AM

seille

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I must agree. The neutral regime is a perfect solution.
You should not place the black hexes in the middle of the map.
Neutral regime is a easy solution. It�s perfect.

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 28

RE: Foreign help - 12/12/2007 2:08:06 AM

Bombur

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Out of curiosity, why the neutral regime is better?
Seille, the black hexes would be in the extremities of the map, not in the middle.

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Post #: 29

RE: Foreign help - 12/12/2007 4:50:59 AM

tweber

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It comes down to preference. I like the neutral regime approach since you still get the 'decoration' of the painted terrain.