Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Chit Selection For Dummies

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Chit Selection For Dummies Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 3:02:47 AM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		This, to me, is the hardest part to get my mind around. I just can't pour over the resolutions charts trying to second-guess which chit the A.I. will pick, and which would be the most effective against it.

If some veteran players would post a tip or two, that would be the bees knees.
Post #: 1
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 3:33:17 AM   
donkuchi19


Posts: 1062
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Russia prefers defense when defending so choose accordingly. Turkey prefers assault and esc. assault as well as counter attack and esc. counter attack. Those basics help with those two countries. (Russia gets a bonus on defense and Turkey gets a bonus when you have forces attacking each other). Other than that, look for tendencies and situations where something is advantagous to you.

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 2
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 3:35:24 AM   
JavaJoe


Posts: 546
Joined: 9/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tgb

This, to me, is the hardest part to get my mind around. I just can't pour over the resolutions charts trying to second-guess which chit the A.I. will pick, and which would be the most effective against it.

If some veteran players would post a tip or two, that would be the bees knees.


Moral tables and casualty tables. I'm not going to reproduce them here I'll just touch on the simple theory of what they do and why you may want to pick one over the other. This is opinion and your opinions may play out better than mine and I hope they do

Offensive:

Assault and Escalated Assault. These produce higher casualy rates on average. If you want to take a lot of infantry away from an enemy and are not really concerned with short term losses a series of Escalated assaults in several battles will take its toll. Although the Defend chit will put you in your place if he is on to your scheme.

Echelon and Outflank. These break your enemy faster and can be devastating in pursuit if the stars are aligned right. They tend to be higher on the moral side giving casualties a backseat to breaking your opponents will to fight. Cordon is the counter and will ruin a day if picked at the right time. Outflank with a good leader can be predictable. With a bad leader at the right time can cause a huge victory. Outflank also doubles the amount of casualty causing factors. The "flankers" chosen will double their strength.

Probe Pretty much speaks for itself. At times if against the right defense it can win the day but mostly used to see what's in that big stack over there?

Defensive:
Outflank See above only in reverse.

Cordon, Very helpful against a nation that you suspect will try to use high moral chits against you. If an Escalated Assault pops in at the wrong time you'll be sorry for sure.

Escalated Counter Attack and Counter Attack see Escalated Assault and Assault. Pure casualty causing events. Two sides stand across each other and punch it out ....may the best rolls win.

Withdraw, Best defense...no be there. If you fail to get away you'll be minced meat.

There are certain modifiers that help certain nations. Giving roll advantages. Terrain also comes into play. As well as cavalry superiority.

Hope this helps

Joe



_____________________________

Vice President Jersey Association Of Gamers
JerseyGamers.com

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 3
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 3:44:51 AM   
Murat


Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline 		Well at least you asked something SIMPLE  Chit picks are hard all around and the best you can usually do is get down to a 50/50 proposition. The main thing to keep in mind is Terrain, Strategic Rating (the 1st # a commander has) and Special abilities.

Terrain:
Forest Desert Marsh. Forest lowers the casualty table (the 1st number in the chart), Desert increases the morale table (2d # in the chart) and Marsh does both (-1, +1). Keep this in mind as you look at the chart.
Mountain Only the ATTACKER has their casualty table lowered by 1.
Rivers Cordon defends better than it normally would if the attacker crosses a river.

Strategic Rating: This basically tells you whether or not you want to use Outflank or Withdrawal. Outflanking is harder to do in forest marsh or mountain. You roll the strategic rating to see if this works. a Strategic rating of 4 or higher (meaning you need a 4 or less out of 6 to succeed) means you are good to go here.

Special abilities: Turks have more morale when Assaulting, Escalated, Counterattacking, Esc. Counterattacking; Russia has more morale on Defend, Austria gets a dice benefit if they are in a Echelon -v- Cordon fight.

Outflank is a special pick in that part of your force does not get used until it can back to the battle (you sent them around the flank so they are moving in a big semicircle) but when it does show up it counts for double. If you use 1/2 your force to run around, then you would be attacking with 1.5 times the number of troops you started with for the last 2 rounds of combat. 

BASICALLY: If you want to cause casualties, use Outflank, Assault, Esc Assault, Counterattack or Esc Counterattack. If you want to lower the morale, use Echelon or Probe. Defend and Cordon are reactions based on what is being used against you.

I start by figuring out what should the attacker be doing (Are in they in bad terrain, do they have the superior numbers, do they have superior morale, do they have a leader with a good Strat., etc.) and I try to eliminate choices they will not use. I then do the same for the defender. Then I look at the way the charts cross and say, 'If I pick X what are my odds of getting the better tables than my opponent' and I try for the one that does that.

For example, Napoleon a 5.5.6 leader is attacking with 80 troops against Charles a 4.4.6 leader with 100 troops. Both are by best guess about equal in morale.  I am leading Napoleon, I would imagine Charles is going to go for high casualties, but is unlikely to outflank since his numbers are already larger than mine. I am guessing he will not withdrawal either since he outnumbers me. Now I have elimiated 2 possibilities for him.  Now I will want to either get my numbers up (outflank) to help me on the casualty front or I want to cause him a lot of morale damage to end the battle faster, so I am going to chose between Outflank, Echelon and Probe.  Outflank gives me good tables on both types of counter attacks and defend but not on cordon so it is a 75% good choice. Echelon gives me good table for both types of counterattack, is even on defend (I lose casualties but cause more morale loss) and is bad again on cordon so it is a 50% good 25% draw. Probe is good against Cordon but a draw against Defend and bad against the 2 types of counterattack so it is 25% good, 25% draw, 50% bad. Clearly based on this I shoud choose Outflank. BUT WAIT! Did you notice what really messed up outflank and Echelon? CORDON and what was good on Cordon? PROBE so you then are down to the fatal choice between 2: Outflank or Cordon and you just have to pick one and suiffer the consequences.

If all that thinking annoys you, feel free to just look at what you are doing (like leave out Withdrawal if you want to fight the battle) and then just roll a die or something and randomly pick a style. In FtF play we had a person who did this every time and they were very successful much to everyone else's dismay.

WHY NOT TO WORRY ABOUT Cav superiority: These will not change, you either have them or you do not. A great tactical leader with cav superiority still only gets +1 to his roll. If you have a poor leader you are at a disadvantage even if you have cav superiority (better leader is usually +1 on die roll).

< Message edited by Murat -- 12/12/2007 3:49:13 AM >

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 4
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 3:47:16 AM   
jardail

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		The above suggestions are good solid recommendations, but keep in mind that each tactical chit has it's advantages and disadvantages based not just on what armies are fighting, but also based on what leaders are present, whether or not you have superiority in Cavalry AND what the moral of your troops are.

For example

If Napoleon is present and the French have overwhelming Cav Superiority, the losses to an opponent that breaks can be tremendous, especially if they break early in the battle.

Pursuit casualties can cause enormous losses far and above what were lost during the actual fight.

There's no real "this is right and this is wrong" method of choosing attack or defense, the best thing that anyone can tell you is, study both sets, learns what works against what and then tailor your strategy accordingly.

Keep Cavalry with you at all times.  Never GIVE the opponent an advantage in Cavalry, make him work for it.


(in reply to JavaJoe)
Post #: 5
Some comments... - 12/12/2007 3:53:05 AM   
Grognot

 

Posts: 409
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline 		Outflank --
Relies on having a decent strategic rating and enough manpower that you can split your force and survive for a couple of rounds -- if your pinning force can't hold, you lose.  Completely stopped by Cordon.  Works nicely against Defend.  Can result in very high inflicted casualties when it works with a large outflanking force.

Assault --
Fairly bog-standard assault.  There's a morale bonus for Turkey if using either Assault or Escalated Assault.  Nasty against Cordon.  Morale bonus for Turks.

Escalated Assault -- Morale loss tends to be higher for both attacker and defender than in Assault.  Also nasty against Cordon.  Morale bonus for Turks.  Defend is a problem, particularly if you were counting on a good modifier from a higher tactical rating.

Probe -- Inflicts very low morale loss, can in certain cases cause decent casualties, defender's withdraw always succeeds.

Echelon -- Very nasty against Counterattacks.  Very bad against Outflank.  Risks heavy morale loss against Defend, but can inflict decent morale loss and casualties.


Don't outflank with tiny forces.

Attacks that subject you to high morale loss in round one or two in exchange for a nice round three might not be practical with Turkish feudal troops.

If you have a smaller, but high-morale army, look for high morale damage/low-casualty match-ups.  You lose if you're dead.   Other way around, something that won't break morale and lets you take advantage of percentages against a higher baseline is nice.



(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 6
RE: Some comments... - 12/12/2007 4:07:08 AM   
Suvorov928


Posts: 157
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Chit picking is what sets this game apart from all others.  Not saying the rest of the game is not great, but there is really something fun when you are playing, especially F2F, and you have to outpick your opponent. 


I have seen everything from people analyzing the chart for 30 mins, people trying to guess and out guess his opponent and people reaching into a cup and drawing randomly.


Having said that, I always found Probe to be a very useful pick if you are ever in doubt on offense.  In many of my F2F games, it has always been effective or, at the least, kept many people out of trouble.  

(in reply to Grognot)
Post #: 7
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 4:07:48 AM   
AusGamer

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline 		Hi tgb,

Chit selection is one of those things where you'll go mad if you try and second guess too much. Try and focus on your own objectives. (I learnt this when playing against a friend who used to shake the chits in his hand and draw one at random....try outpicking that). 

Got a leader with a high strat rating? The higher the strat rating the easier it will be to Outflank. An Offensive Outflank will beat pretty much anything but a Cordon (and even then with good dice, the French morale bonus and Guard commitment France can draw or even win this), so long as the outflank arrives! And it's on even terms with a Defensive Outflank.

If you are attacking a large force against a small one then you prabably want to do casualties & wipe it out. Assault or Esc Assault, though the Turks might love you for this, is a no brainer.....and if you manage to catch a failed withdraw.....

In the past playing against humans France often wants to win the battle whilst the Allies (cos if you are facing France on your own start praying) usually want to inflict casualties and wear the French down. Echelon can be good for doing morale damage, Escalated Counter Attack can inflict some good losses.

I guess every chit has a nemesis...Probe can be good as France versus a Defend, Outflank or Cordon but a withdraw will auto get away and vs any form of counter attack you will get your you-know-what handed to you. In the end you pays your money and takes your chances so if you manage to pull off an Outflank vs Defend enjoy it......cos next time......

One last thing. Napoleon said maneuver offensively, fight defensively so in that vein take a look at the numbers on Defensive Outflanks.

Hope this helps.

< Message edited by AusGamer -- 12/12/2007 4:10:15 AM >

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 8
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 7:28:08 AM   
chuckj118

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: SC, USA
Status: offline 		Chit picking is the art and the fun of this game.  I pretty much agree with everything that has been said here but no one has discussed how chit picking is done with the human factor ... so ...

================

1)  When playing against other human players you have to try and get into their minds and try to see how they think.  In this situation his past experience with YOU is very important.

If you are known as an aggressive player he will tend to expect an aggressive pick.  Keep that into mind, decide what he thinks you will pick, say Outflank or Esc Assault, then do the opposite.  If your right you can catch him flat footed do alot of damage.

Example: I was known among our EiA group as an aggressive chit picker.  In the mid game battles, using Nappy I had pulled Outflank quite a bit.  I would say over 1/2 the time in 6 to 8 battles.  So, when I went into a battle with the combined Aus/Pru army I just got a feeling that Charles (Aus) would pick Cordon...so I picked Esc Assault!  What a slaughter!  In a battle with about 180 factors on a side I wiped out over one hundred factors.  23 Cavalry helped in the pursuit.  Doing the unexpected can win battles.

2)  Something to remember when using Napoleon is that you can almost always retreat out of a situation if you don't like it.  With a Strategic rating of 5 he is almost sure to get away.  In all my years playing I have only lost my bet with this once.  It also seems to surprise other players...especially the first time you do it.  Then once you have done it 3 or 4 times when in a bad situation, expect them to throw an esc assault at you for the reduced chance to retreat, then smash him with a Defend or Outflank.  LoL

3) Another tactic I haven't heard anyone mention yet is committing the guard in a bad situation in order to end the battle quickly and survive to fight later.  This can be very useful in situations when the enemy doesn't have alot of cavalry.  If they have more than a few cavalry the pursuit could really be vicious because the enemy will still have high moral and you will be in an early round.  Both of these factor into the pursuit.  Not a happy choice but useful in some situations.

Finally, I am not sure how any of this will factor in during a Play by Email game...but we'll see.  I going to work on a few hot-seat games.

(in reply to AusGamer)
Post #: 9
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 8:03:55 AM   
jamo262


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/21/2003
From: Perth Australia
Status: offline 		All the above ring true and offer valuable advice.

For me, I tend to like bold choices- that I may die with a sword in my hand.

Further,

Outflank looks nice on defense with a good leader.

Probe is a safe attack but falls a part with a counter attack.

The points mentioned about about Turkish morale and 3rd round of combat cas/moral losses are very insightful. Since there is a likelihood of them not making it to the third round, then look at the first two rounds when deciding.

Turkey may want to inflict max damage in the first two rounds therefore.

One of the first things I personally try and do is to determine whether the enemy will play an outflank chit. For this I look at their leader's strategic rating, corp number/type and terrain.

Random is one of the hardest to pick against.

Often it comes down to trying to outpick each other- (if he/she picks this then I will pick that but he/she would have thought of this so they will pick that etc).

It is very worthwhile studying the CRT.

One interesting thing to consider is that, for France if the enemy has picked outflank and you escalated attack, committing the Guard early can still achieve victory through massive morale loss if the outflank does not arrive straight away. (remind me-can the guard be committed on the first turn?)



< Message edited by jamo262 -- 12/12/2007 8:25:22 AM >

(in reply to chuckj118)
Post #: 10
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 8:20:54 AM   
zaquex


Posts: 368
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Vastervik, Sweden
Status: offline 		"After the resolution of a combat round, a player with a guard or grenadier corps may choose to “commit the guard” for the next round. A player may do this only once per day of combat."

No, the Guard cant be commited before the first round is resolved.

(in reply to jamo262)
Post #: 11
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 8:30:33 AM   
jamo262


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/21/2003
From: Perth Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zaquex

"After the resolution of a combat round, a player with a guard or grenadier corps may choose to “commit the guard” for the next round. A player may do this only once per day of combat."

No, the Guard cant be commited before the first round is resolved.

Thank you Zaquex.

Still with a "6" on the first die roll and a guard commitment on the second round I believe that victory may be possible against a medium morale opponent, for the situation described above.

Guard commitment gives extra tactical flexibility.

(in reply to zaquex)
Post #: 12
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 7:30:12 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Think of the battle system in this game as a giant game of "Rock-scissors-paper" (you know, rock crushes scissors, scissors cut paper, paper covers rock). Except, the end result of a chit choice is not a single fixed outcome. Most of the combat tables have a lot of flexibility in them. Leadership, terrain, nationality, cavalry superiority, etc., all add some elements to the equation. In the end, roll sixes and pray your opponent rolls ones. If he out-picked you, you could still win. I did last night, twice back to back against the Swedes. He outpicked me both times, but I rolled high and he low. Plus, I had a leader and Sweden did not. The second battle was in a forest, cutting my casualties against him (he couldn't do any damage at all to me), but he had so few troops left after the first battle that it didn't matter.

By the way, this brings up a point about this game (maybe I'll start a thread on this): It's what I call the "Kick them while they are down" rule. This was a simple war with Sweden for control. France owned it, and chose to not declare war in an attempt to keep it from me (Russia). However, he fought the battle for the capital, because if he wins, he'll own it longer (thus, maintaining the higher political status gained by getting control longer -- remember: The game is won on the political status display, not on the battlefield).

Anyhow, he retreated after the first battle. At this point, I was one step back from France on the PSD. But, he should have vaporized the corps in the next month's reinforcement phase, because I attacked again. "Kick them when they are down." Even though he out-chitted me, he didn't have enough troops left to survive even just two rounds. His only hope of winning would have been to drop my morale to 0 in one round of die-rolling. But, the tables and dice rolls that allow that (with no leader, especially) are few and far between. Even out-chitting me, he had virtually no chance.

If he had killed off the corps (and the troops) the second month I was in his borders, I wouldn't have gained the extra political point for the battle (which was NOT in a city). As a result of that error (plus my aggressive nature), I am now 3 slots ahead of France politically. I like that. :)

(in reply to jamo262)
Post #: 13
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 8:24:59 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Jimmer has said it best - picking chits in EiA is a complicated form of rock, slightly better rock, iron scissors, steel scissors, and two different kinds of paper. There is no right way to pick and no one chit to go with (that said, Echelon is my fav when I can't decide).

I have played France and gave up the game in 1806 because my friend outpicked me every time. I carefully selected what chit I thought would best improve my odds, he shook a hat and randomly picked - getting lucky 4 times in a row! I have also been the fortunate one with chit picking playing Turkey and fighting Russia. I randomized my chit pick, my Russian opponent avoided Assault, Esc. Assault like the plague. I still got lucky and trounced him in numerous battles.

The point: you'll go nuts if you try to over-analyze this! I'm convinced the AI randomly pick chits from my experience with the game so far. Though the points offered by the other posters are good food for thought.

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 14
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/12/2007 8:47:18 PM   
dauphan129

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		I prefer to use intuition with a couple guidelines.

If my general's tactical is below 3, I am in the wrong terrain, or I only have one Counter (corps), I never take outflank.

I try not to take Assult or Esc. Assult (or their opposites) when fighting the Turks. That is what they want me to pick!

I almost always Cordon if they are attacking across a River.

Beyond that, I stare balefully at the combat screen and change the chit picker from one option to the other till I get a swelling feeling in my chest and my hand feels like it wants to roll dice. This works for me about 70 - 75% of the time.

I did memorise those combat results charts back in the early 90's when I played the boardgame every weekend with a group of friends but in the end I still used this system and it works against the living as well as remotes

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 15
RE: Chit Selection For Dummies - 12/13/2007 12:02:21 AM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		By the way, if you run the numbers, there IS a best choice against a player who always chooses randomly. I forget what it is (it was 20 years ago that I wrote the program to calculate it), but there really is a way to beat "totally random" over the long run. Of course, you have to KNOW that the player is being totally random.

I use a modified kind of random. First, I see if any are ruled out. Usually, probe is, as well as escalated assault. However, esc. assault tends to be OK with high morale armies (France and GB) and armies that are bigger than the opponent and expecting to be in a series of slugfests.

After ruling out any chits, I look over what remains and ask myself if any of them should be more likely to pick than the rest. Then, I roll a die.

So, let's say I'm willing to take assault, outflank, and echelon (and, they landed in that order in my hand). But, I'm up against the Turks, so I don't want to take assault as often. So, I assign the numbers 1 to assault, 2 & 3 to outflank, and 4 & 5 to echelon. If it comes up 6, I roll again.

So, it turns out this more of an "educated guess" than purely random.

But, there are times when I just "know" what my opponent is going to take. So, I pick my chit as appropriate against that option.

I always seem to lose when I use my own "knowledge". :)

(in reply to dauphan129)
Post #: 16
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Chit Selection For Dummies Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.203