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Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 2:42:18 PM   
Micke II


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
Status: offline 		I am in the process to try to master this game. With the help of veterans, having played this game on paper maps, + some thread written in this forum the training is progressing well.
My main concern is the lack of information screens concerning the main events of the game. When you are french, to know that Turkey has declared war to Russia you have to go in the Nation status overview to see what has happened. A screen appearing when a war is declared or is over will certainly bring more fun. Also a screen saying after a big battle who is the winner and where the battle has happened would be also nice. In fact, when you are playing GB for example, you don’t know exactly what is happening between Austria and Russia. A screen presenting the outcome of a diplomatic negotiation will be also appreciated.

Post #: 1
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 2:49:46 PM   
Anfield1

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/13/2007
From: Helsingør, Denmark
Status: offline 		YES YES YES



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Thomas

(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 2
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 3:02:59 PM   
Monadman


Posts: 2085
Joined: 12/6/2005
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II

I am in the process to try to master this game. With the help of veterans, having played this game on paper maps, + some thread written in this forum the training is progressing well.
My main concern is the lack of information screens concerning the main events of the game. When you are french, to know that Turkey has declared war to Russia you have to go in the Nation status overview to see what has happened. A screen appearing when a war is declared or is over will certainly bring more fun. Also a screen saying after a big battle who is the winner and where the battle has happened would be also nice. In fact, when you are playing GB for example, you don’t know exactly what is happening between Austria and Russia. A screen presenting the outcome of a diplomatic negotiation will be also appreciated.




Agree; there is always room for more information concerning major events.

FYI, results of previous actions can be viewed in the Status window (brown box located in the left corner of screen). Double-clicking that box will expand the window and right clicking the status window, while it is minimized (default), will allow you to copy the contents to the clipboard.

Richard


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(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 3
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 3:11:43 PM   
prielo

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Nevertheless, a pop up window when you got control over a minor or when someone you are at war with surrenders would be quite helpful.

Greets

Patrick

(in reply to Monadman)
Post #: 4
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 3:23:30 PM   
jardail

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		Agreed

I hate to say this, but I'm not very impressed with the amount of time that was spent beta testing this game if this is the result.

Marshall ya'll did a fabulous job, but there are some things here that are no brainers.  We NEED SCREENS!

If you were my S2 Officer I'd be chewing your ass right now for lack of Intel 

(in reply to prielo)
Post #: 5
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 3:49:33 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		What information are you missing?

I realize we're short on banners. We spent more time on mechanics than we did information. If you'd been with us a few months back, you'd realize we still did the right thing :-) I promise you! We certainly can add more information presentation screens so let us know...

Leatherneck_MT: You actually think I've got some left to be chewed? LOL!

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to jardail)
Post #: 6
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 5:11:57 PM   
Micke II


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

What information are you missing?

I realize we're short on banners. We spent more time on mechanics than we did information. If you'd been with us a few months back, you'd realize we still did the right thing :-) I promise you! We certainly can add more information presentation screens so let us know...

Leatherneck_MT: You actually think I've got some left to be chewed? LOL!


I realize the job you achieved by "translating" a quite sophisticated boardgame in a computer game. it has been certainly a huge task.
But if, for example Turkey loses a batlle against Russia, when you are playing an another country you just see
"Turkey -1PP". It will be helpful to know the outcome of the battle: amount of losses, number of men having participated in the battle and so on.
After the signature of a peace treaty a window with the treaty conditions will be appreciated: ie Wien Treaty: "Austria loses Venetia and Tyrol, no trade allowed, Charles must withdraw. I am not sure this information is provided at the moment to the other players.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 7
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 5:21:58 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		Yes! I need to see the things I would see in a face to face game. If Turkey and Russia fight I get to see their troop compositions and what's left after a battle. Here I just see Turkey lost. Great.

And I mentioned before, the text in the text window is presented backwards. When you open it up, you have to read from the bottom up to decipher what happened. Every reinforcement phase I spend so much time going over this big block of text, with people trying to influence, wars declared, nations controlled, it's a giant mess.


(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 8
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 5:23:40 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
I don't know if knowing all that information is relevant. One thing that always bothered me a bit about the board game was the almost god-like knowledge of all the players of the details of events halfway across Europe. Sure, they would likely know Russia won a big battle against Turkey, but certainly not how many men were lost (with any kind of accuracy at least) and how many participated.



(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 9
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 5:32:41 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'll second what Mynock said - how would GB, for example, know down to the man the results of w battle taking place on the Austrian-Turkish border?

The banner that most needs to be added is when your foe sues for peace. I had too many "WTF, how'd those corps end up over THERE?" moments in my last game.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 10
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 5:42:42 PM   
Micke II


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
Status: offline 		When France has lost the Trafalgar battle in October 1805 it was extremely important to know in Russia or Austria that France and Spain has no more fleets. It is also very important to know for GB that Austria and Russia have lost 50 000 soldiers in a battle like Austerlitz. This information will influence the decisions and outcomes of the next diplomatic and economic phase. It means that GB could send more money to Austria to rebuild its army or for Austria and Russia try to break the french spanish alliance.

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 11
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 5:43:20 PM   
Alex Gilbert

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 9/20/2002
From: New York City
Status: offline 		Actually, of all the info I would like easily reviewable, the most important would be enforced peace duration-

Currently, I am noting on paper when wars end so I can calculate the 18 month (or 24 or 36 month) term of enforced peace for my country vis a vis others. I can get by with this.

What is more difficult is keeping track of this for the other countries.

Having a window that can be pulled up to review this would be of enormous help (perhaps integrating it into the current political display).

Alex

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 12
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 6:05:16 PM   
Monadman


Posts: 2085
Joined: 12/6/2005
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert

Actually, of all the info I would like easily reviewable, the most important would be enforced peace duration-

Currently, I am noting on paper when wars end so I can calculate the 18 month (or 24 or 36 month) term of enforced peace for my country vis a vis others. I can get by with this.

What is more difficult is keeping track of this for the other countries.

Having a window that can be pulled up to review this would be of enormous help (perhaps integrating it into the current political display).

Alex



Alex,

That information can be found in the Current Nation window and the program does a find job of counting down the months you. In this example: Britain may not declare war on France for 36 months (extended due to Enforced Peace 36 condition at time of surrender) and France may not declare war on Britain for 18 months.

Richard





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 6:06:24 PM   
Alex777


Posts: 92
Joined: 7/3/2005
Status: offline 		As important as providing us with more info is filtering out the stuff which doesn't tell us anything.  For example, for every phase of every turn, we get 2 lines of text per major power: the first telling us that, for example, "1805, Jan Turkey Playing Diplomacy ..."" and the 2nd saying "1805, Jan Turkey Finished Diplomacy!".  No doubt these were useful in debugging, but players should not have to wade through reams of these statements of the obvious in order to locate the useful bits.  Filters, we need FILTERS! 

(in reply to Alex Gilbert)
Post #: 14
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:11:38 PM   
chuckj118

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: SC, USA
Status: offline 		The system is in need of some kind of information boxes that come up and tell you who has DOW'd who and who has surrendered to whom.  It would also be nice to be informed of any changes in the control of minors.

Finally, I really have to say that all player's should see what happens during any battles that occur.  During a face to face EiA board games all the players would be able to see what took place and even watch each die roll. 

More importantly we need to see the chit picks.  How can we get a feel of how someone picks their chits if we don't see the battles.

This, of course, assumes that we are still trying to simulate the same feel and gaming experience that you would get from playing the board game.  If not...um,  what was the point?  You could have designed a ground up PC game and designed the rules to suit yourselves. 

Is it not harder to program a boardgame equivilent than write a game from scratch?

(in reply to Alex777)
Post #: 15
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:22:40 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Getting rid of the "gods-eye" knowledge of the board game is an appropriate and realistic change that should be made. The only reason all that knowledge was available in the game was because it was too difficult to hide it. No such case for the computer game.

It's an evolutionary, not revolutionary change. The feel and flavor of the game are not lost because knowledge of battles was reduced to "Russia defeats Turkey in a major battle in xxxxxx".

Knowledge of diplomatic moves should remain, as those were intended for public dissemination in most cases.

(in reply to chuckj118)
Post #: 16
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:26:02 PM   
La Provence


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: Toulouse (FRANCE)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II

When France has lost the Trafalgar battle in October 1805 it was extremely important to know in Russia or Austria that France and Spain has no more fleets. It is also very important to know for GB that Austria and Russia have lost 50 000 soldiers in a battle like Austerlitz. This information will influence the decisions and outcomes of the next diplomatic and economic phase. It means that GB could send more money to Austria to rebuild its army or for Austria and Russia try to break the french spanish alliance.


Totally agree with this !

(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 17
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:27:25 PM   
chuckj118

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: SC, USA
Status: offline 		Well, Mynok, I guess we have a difference of opinion here.  I suppose Marshall or someone up the ladder needs to make that decision.  Either way the game will still be fantastic!


(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 18
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:46:12 PM   
Alex Gilbert

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 9/20/2002
From: New York City
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monadman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert

Actually, of all the info I would like easily reviewable, the most important would be enforced peace duration-

Currently, I am noting on paper when wars end so I can calculate the 18 month (or 24 or 36 month) term of enforced peace for my country vis a vis others. I can get by with this.

What is more difficult is keeping track of this for the other countries.

Having a window that can be pulled up to review this would be of enormous help (perhaps integrating it into the current political display).

Alex



Alex,

That information can be found in the Current Nation window and the program does a find job of counting down the months you. In this example: Britain may not declare war on France for 36 months (extended due to Enforced Peace 36 condition at time of surrender) and France may not declare war on Britain for 18 months.

Richard






Excellent, I had missed that. Thanks.

I still think that if possible it would be useful to be able to see this for other countries, but that is less important.

Alex

(in reply to Monadman)
Post #: 19
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:52:42 PM   
dauphan129

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		My 2 Cents.

I don't want to have to click OK for 40 different info boxes that pop up while other countries are taking their turns. I wonder if we could get a turn summary at the end or beginning of a turn that pulled up some info?
Like at the end of Econmics when you hit end phase something pops up and says

-------------------------------------
France built Available
5 Calvary May 1806
19 Infantry March 1806
10 Militia January 1806

Freestates
Holland built
3 Infantry March 1806

OK Go Back
-----------------------------------
Then Maybe at begining of Reinforcement get a single screen that says who all declared wars/made peace.
-----------------------------------
France Declared War on Austria January 1806
Prussia declared war on Wurttenburg January 1806

OK
-----------------------------------

Finally, At the beginning of Diplomacy we could get a screen that summarizes the battles that happened. Maybe relative strengths based on how many corps were involved (without actual numbers though chits could maybe be told).

Example:
Austria and France fought a battle last turn each side had 3 corps (or more) GB gets this notice with any other combats listed.
----------------------------------------
The French Outflanked Austrian positions trying to Defend Bavaria in a major battle.
Prussia broke into the city of Wurttenburg and defeated the local militia.
etc.

OK
----------------------------------------
Anyway point is I think a summary well timmed would be better than lots of pop ups. Plus I am guessing this would be less destructive to PBEM Games.

(in reply to chuckj118)
Post #: 20
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 7:58:08 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nalamin

Well, Mynok, I guess we have a difference of opinion here. I suppose Marshall or someone up the ladder needs to make that decision. Either way the game will still be fantastic!




Do you hold your position because you want an exact replica of the board game...or some other reason? Just curious...

(in reply to chuckj118)
Post #: 21
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 9:46:55 PM   
Murat


Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline 		I disagree with making all this information available without having to take the small effort of clicking a few buttons. All the information that should be available to you is as long as you know where to look. One of the best parts of FtF was that the lazy got punished. You do not get to know what your opponents have built in this game (except ships, you can see those getting built if you look) nor do you get to know what is is in their corps markers (except ships and even that can be hidden by stacking properly). You want to know "Hey what is in that stack on my border?" you have to attack it. Who allied with whom? Click on the capitals and find out.

THis is especially true in PBEM. Popups in solo games might make the game more accessible and easy to learn (maybe link them to the Easy AI setting) but one should have to determine their own goals and level of interest in PBEM.  Spain is worried about who is at war, Britain about who has fleets, etc.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 22
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 9:53:14 PM   
dauphan129

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		Honestly, I agree with you Murat.

If we are going to end up with info screens though I would rather they be summaries than keyed on every event. That's all I am saying.

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 23
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 10:56:57 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'm 55, and don't want to have to dig through line after line of small font to find out why the corps that were in Turkey last month popped up suddenly in Mecklenburg (the only reason I found them was an "out of supply" warning. If not for that, I would have reported it here as a bug).

I'm not asking for unrealistic or god-like information. I'm just saying that if I'm at war with Turkey and they sue for peace, giving up reparations and ceding me Egypt, I'd like it to be pretty damn obvious

(in reply to dauphan129)
Post #: 24
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/13/2007 11:20:45 PM   
Donegal

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline 		Another suggestion:
It's quite difficult to track opponent's land movement and i really lost myself. I think some kind of "highlight unit" would be great

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 25
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/14/2007 12:01:23 AM   
Micke II


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
Status: offline 		I think that only the most important informations must be put to the knowledge of the other players.
Results of big battles winner/loser and casualities on each side
Declarations of war
Capture of towns
Treaty of peace with the conditions
The format could be a table at the end of each month.

(in reply to Donegal)
Post #: 26
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/14/2007 12:23:04 AM   
Murat


Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II

I think that only the most important informations must be put to the knowledge of the other players.
Results of big battles winner/loser and casualities on each side
The format could be a table at the end of each month.


Absolutely not. You will destroy the Fog of War. I would not upload any patch that did this.

quote:


Declarations of war
Capture of towns


This information is provided in the events screen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tgb

I'm 55, and don't want to have to dig through line after line of small font to find out why the corps that were in Turkey last month popped up suddenly in Mecklenburg (the only reason I found them was an "out of supply" warning. If not for that, I would have reported it here as a bug).

I'm not asking for unrealistic or god-like information. I'm just saying that if I'm at war with Turkey and they sue for peace, giving up reparations and ceding me Egypt, I'd like it to be pretty damn obvious


An expand feature for the events screen would seem to solve this and is highly desired from what I can see in other posts. It is hard to have to scroll to get all this info, especially in solo games.

(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 27
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/14/2007 12:27:38 AM   
chuckj118

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: SC, USA
Status: offline 		I definately think summaries would be the way to go...if any of you have played Europa Universalis you have seen what to many pop ups can do.

Mynok --- All I am saying was that the original intent of Matrix Games was to do an EXACT copy of EiA.  To try and get the same feel and flavor as the board game; but on the PC.

I actually think that it probably would have been better, and easier, for Matrix to do a "blend" of EiA, keeping alot of the games features but updating them for the PC environment rather than an exact copy.  But this is not what Matrix and ADG decided to do.  If this had been done it would it have had the same "feel"? The same "flavor"?  Would it have gone over as well with the EiA audience?  I'm not sure...but with the help of ADG I am sure they could have come pretty close.  But this decision was made years ago.

I suppose all I am saying is lets get the copy of EiA down then we can look at making some "optional rules" that we can pick and choose.  This was done by the boardgame community as well.  


(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 28
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/14/2007 1:26:25 AM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline 		this game is not really EIA, its a EIA/EIH/PC mix.

Newerwinternights 1 and 2, claim to be based on the original D&D 3.0 and later 3.5 rules, but having them both now, i found they have still not updated them properly, both games have like 1/2 of the right edition along with 1/4 AD&D and 1/4 self made stuff, ohh and ofc unlike D&D, where combat is suppose to be turn based, its more real time, which dont work with the magic rules, nor movement in combat nor ranged combat. they should keep to the rules of the game!

ofc not 100% as there might be reasons and limits on how to do the turns, but always stay close to the product you claim to making it over.

at least they have kept PC EIA close to the original game and thats why i bought it :)

< Message edited by DodgyDave -- 12/14/2007 1:27:42 AM >

(in reply to chuckj118)
Post #: 29
RE: Lack of information screeens - 12/14/2007 2:15:12 AM   
petter26

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		Mynock. I can't agree at all with your statement. European paper reported battle sizes and casulty outcomes. If the common Englishman knew that Talavera was won with so many men, and so many losses. What makes you think that a monarch of a major nation would not know!!!???

(in reply to DodgyDave)
Post #: 30
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