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Road To Moscow - 12/15/2007 2:37:53 PM

MrBoats

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I remember the Road to Moscow project some years back -- does anyone know what ever happened to it? It seemed like the release was imminent at points, but kept getting pushed back. It looked like a promising system. I'd give anything for a WIR update with larger maps and better graphics. TOAW is not bad, but I'd like a game dedicated to the Eastern Front.

Post #: 1

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/15/2007 3:02:16 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats
I remember the Road to Moscow project some years back -- does anyone know what ever happened to it?

I did a review of the beta a couple of years back. It's over here :

http://tinyurl.com/27ocp7

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to MrBoats)

Post #: 2

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/15/2007 3:09:06 PM

Terminus

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I remember ogling the thing all those years ago. Too bad they didn't actually have a shot of making a playable game out of it.

Reminds me a bit of the old PC game Patriot; a good idea, but 0/10 in implementation.

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Post #: 3

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/15/2007 6:15:32 PM

hueglin

Posts: 297
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From: Kingston, ON, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I remember ogling the thing all those years ago. Too bad they didn't actually have a shot of making a playable game out of it.

Reminds me a bit of the old PC game Patriot; a good idea, but 0/10 in implementation.

Ah yes, Patriot. An idea that sounded great, but a game that looked O.K. and played horribly.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 4

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/16/2007 3:23:10 AM

sullafelix

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At least Road To Moscow was never sold. Does anyone remember UMS series. I think it was UMS 3 that I was absolutely in love with from the previews. Too bad that an intel quad was needed to run a 94? game. I tried and tried to play it. Imagine an operational Alaxander's campaigns. Oh the horror.

(in reply to hueglin)

Post #: 5

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/17/2007 8:46:29 AM

MrBoats

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Ah, UMS. One of a few hundred games I bought without reading any reviews, only to wind up using the disks for table-leg wedges or drink coasters. "The War College" or whatever it was called comes to mind also. And the OLD "Art of War" game that had pasty white zombies dancing across the screen, supposedly following some sort of strategy. Also, the old ('91 or so) Waterloo game that was supposed to be a 3D simulation. Awful! I wish I had all the hundreds I spent on those damn things.

(in reply to sullafelix)

Post #: 6

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 2:07:39 PM

Nemesis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

At least Road To Moscow was never sold. Does anyone remember UMS series. I think it was UMS 3 that I was absolutely in love with from the previews. Too bad that an intel quad was needed to run a 94? game. I tried and tried to play it. Imagine an operational Alaxander's campaigns. Oh the horror.

I had UMS2, and I played it on an Amiga 500. I never got past the first turn in any scenario, since it took the AI about 45 minutes to go through its turn :).

Now, if someone took UMS, modernized it and brought it back to modern times, things would get interesting. I think we finally have enough CPU-power to handle UMS :).

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Post #: 7

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 4:09:03 PM

ravinhood

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UMS was one of the worst games I ever played on the Amiga. Another game that patterned after it "Carthage" wasn't too bad.

(in reply to Nemesis)

Post #: 8

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 4:30:21 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

the RtM game concept is - apart from the over-ambitious scope - virtually identical to the Airborne Assault series games.

It would be interesting to see Panther Games try something like this. Apply their tactical game engine and AI to a larger operational conflict with division-size units and independent regt/bde units. Not real-time though, but perhaps daily or half-day time increments. It would have to be manageable for a full Russian Front wargame. It sure would be nice to give orders to corps or armies or entire army groups and then have a decent AI execute your plans, allowing players to pause the action to reorganize forces and reassign objectives as needed.

(in reply to MrBoats)

Post #: 9

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 4:38:36 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

the RtM game concept is - apart from the over-ambitious scope - virtually identical to the Airborne Assault series games.

It would be interesting to see Panther Games try something like this. Apply their tactical game engine and AI to a larger operational conflict with division-size units and independent regt/bde units. Not real-time though, but perhaps daily or half-day time increments. It would have to be manageable for a full Russian Front wargame. It sure would be nice to give orders to corps or armies or entire army groups and then have a decent AI execute your plans, allowing players to pause the action to reorganize forces and reassign objectives as needed.

A COTA or HTTR game with a couple of hundred units each side is perfectly managable. This means that current technology and hardware can manage a Barbarossa type game at the divisional level. Such a game would be awesome.

Such a strategic level game would in fact be easier to create than the current Panther Games engine as a lot of things that come into play on the tactical level (LOS, LOF, FUP's) aren't needed in a strategic level game.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 10

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 4:40:37 PM

Peter Fisla

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I really liked the idea of RtM, I wonder if the developer is still working on the project on its own...from my point of view it's a very interesting project and I would like to see it making it happen - even if in a limited scope.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 11

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 5:04:21 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
I really liked the idea of RtM, I wonder if the developer is still working on the project on its own...from my point of view it's a very�interesting project and I would like to see it making it happen - even if in a limited scope.

"Battlefield Design Group is composed of long-time game developer Jeff Billings, formerly of MicroProse, systems guru Andy Finkel of Commodore's Amiga fame, and Phil Gardocki, designer and developer of the original ROAD TO MOSCOW game published in 1984 for the Commodore 64. Ken Maniscalco and John Caskey round out the group, bringing over fifty years of gaming, engineering, and scholarly experience to the team."

Maybe if you're interested enough you can trace one of these guys.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 12

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 5:51:06 PM

leastonh1

Posts: 879
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesis
I had UMS2, and I played it on an Amiga 500. I never got past the first turn in any scenario, since it took the AI about 45 minutes to go through its turn :).
Now, if someone took UMS, modernized it and brought it back to modern times, things would get interesting. I think we finally have enough CPU-power to handle UMS :).

I had UMS1 on my A500 and loved it, even though it took a long time for each turn. I can still remember spending literally hours moving each individual unit on the Battle of Hastings scenario! Wow, that's a blast from the past!! Crikey, I feel old now.

It would be a good one to bring back to life though as the premise was sound. Then again, it could just be my old, failing memory playing tricks on me

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Post #: 13

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 7:51:19 PM

Peter Fisla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
I really liked the idea of RtM, I wonder if the developer is still working on the project on its own...from my point of view it's a very�interesting project and I would like to see it making it happen - even if in a limited scope.

"Battlefield Design Group is composed of long-time game developer Jeff Billings, formerly of MicroProse, systems guru Andy Finkel of Commodore's Amiga fame, and Phil Gardocki, designer and developer of the original ROAD TO MOSCOW game published in 1984 for the Commodore 64. Ken Maniscalco and John Caskey round out the group, bringing over fifty years of gaming, engineering, and scholarly experience to the team."

Maybe if you're interested enough you can trace one of these guys.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

I'm currently too busy working on my won project...but I wouldn't mind being a tester for RtM.

Eddy, got your PM and will send you the package when I get home today.

Peter

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 12/18/2007 7:52:51 PM >

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 14

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 8:43:31 PM

marcusm

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UMS was one of thoe love or hate games.

Though. Spectrum had the best early days wargames (Desert Rats ftw).

marcus

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 15

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 8:58:42 PM

SeaMonkey

Posts: 804
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

the RtM game concept is - apart from the over-ambitious scope - virtually identical to the Airborne Assault series games.

It would be interesting to see Panther Games try something like this. Apply their tactical game engine and AI to a larger operational conflict with division-size units and independent regt/bde units. Not real-time though, but perhaps daily or half-day time increments. It would have to be manageable for a full Russian Front wargame. It sure would be nice to give orders to corps or armies or entire army groups and then have a decent AI execute your plans, allowing players to pause the action to reorganize forces and reassign objectives as needed.

A COTA or HTTR game with a couple of hundred units each side is perfectly managable. This means that current technology and hardware can manage a Barbarossa type game at the divisional level. Such a game would be awesome.

Such a strategic level game would in fact be easier to create than the current Panther Games engine as a lot of things that come into play on the tactical level (LOS, LOF, FUP's) aren't needed in a strategic level game.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Man are you ever on ..Eddy. This is exactly where this game engine needs to go. After BftB and the patch for CotA there will be plenty of estabs and database for the modders to create anything else needed at this scale.

Time to evolve this excellent engine to the more operational-strategic scale and develop the PBEM aspects. It would serve to attract another genre of wargamers and indeed could prove to be the marketing "Coup de Grace" the Panther boys deserve, especially Dave/Arjuna.

East Front would be the perfect initiater.

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 16

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 9:03:29 PM

marcusm

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It would be more of a return since they started with an East Front wargame ;).
Great wargame for my Amiga but a tad limited scope.

Marcus

(in reply to SeaMonkey)

Post #: 17

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 9:54:19 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey
Time to evolve this excellent engine to the more operational-strategic scale and develop the PBEM aspects. It would serve to attract another genre of wargamers and indeed could prove to be the marketing "Coup de Grace" the Panther boys deserve, especially Dave/Arjuna.

No argument on the deserve part, but I'm in the IT business and have a pretty good sense of how much it would cost to create such an engine - and it would have to be created from zero as the current engine is too much linked to the operational-tactical level.

Short version : think 5 man/years minimum - that's easily 250K, at a net $25/game sold it needs to sell 10K units to break even. In other words : it needs to be a hit or you go bust .

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to SeaMonkey)

Post #: 18

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 10:29:45 PM

Peter Fisla

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A stupid question: What's this "UMC" wargame on Amiga you guys are talking about ? I still have my Atari 1040 STE (Upgraded TOS 2.06 and 4MB of RAM) any chance this game was also on Atari ST ?

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 19

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 10:34:31 PM

marcusm

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Yes it was. Universal Military Similuator was sort of the early attempt at a "Wargame construction Set".

Marcus

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 20

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 10:36:37 PM

Terminus

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And Good Lord, how it sucked...

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Post #: 21

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 10:39:07 PM

marcusm

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Well, there wasn't that much to choose from. Maybe it sucked more once you had something to compare with ;).

Not a TOAW of course.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 22

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 10:44:14 PM

ravinhood

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RTM would have been a crap game anyways that's probably why it never got published or finished. They don't abandon great games yah know, just the sorry ones.

(in reply to marcusm)

Post #: 23

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/18/2007 10:52:49 PM

marcusm

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I think so too. It was the wargaming equivalent of MOO3, that is the state it would have been released in, if ever released :).

Marcus

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 24

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/19/2007 12:22:46 AM

sullafelix

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I don't agree RH. I've seen plenty of great games down through the years stopped in mid life because of market change or perceieved market change. More than a few game series were also killed by their companies because of poor sales or mergers. Than you have the series that should die because the companies killed them. Take COD4 it is the most awful crap. The first COD was a tremendous game singleplayer and multiplayeer but since then all they have cared about was multiplayer with idiot NPC's thrown in. The newest Fear is also quite bad the original was the best shooter I had ever played. Now the AI can't even walk. Although from what I've read the original Fear team is onto another project and the company that had the rights to it are the ones who messed it up.

Back on the subject, I bought all of the UMS's when released because all of their ideas were great. The battles and campaigns were ones that for the most part still haven't been redone. To bad they couldn't make them work on a computer. For shear volume of great wargames the mid 1980's was the best time. Only within the last year with mostly Matrix's help are we approaching the amount of choice we had then. I still can't believe that some designers can't make games as well as some people could with just a C64 to work with.

(in reply to marcusm)

Post #: 25

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/19/2007 12:26:52 AM

marcusm

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My dream would be for Sid Meier to redo Operation Crusader. What a fantastic game (for its time).

He could do that instead of making kiddie remakes of everything.

marcus

(in reply to sullafelix)

Post #: 26

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/19/2007 1:47:48 AM

ravinhood

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Yeah now Operation Crusader was the perfect been n pretzels game of the 80's. I really enjoyed that one. I liked it better than the desert one or the stalingrad one for some reason. I think because it felt more like AH's d-day than any of the others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, didn't you get a choice of landing sites in OC like you did in AH's D-Day or am I just dreaming that?

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Post #: 27

RE: Road To Moscow - 12/19/2007 1:51:03 AM

ravinhood

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Who played "Ancient Art of War in the Skies"? lol I think that game was about as fun as one could get for another beer n pretzels type of game. I got a kick out of the animated flying combat sequences that changed the trenchline as you won and lost. I had some lopsided U shaped lines I want yah to know playing that one. Quite fun though.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 28

RE: Road To Moscow - 1/12/2011 10:28:42 PM

bairdlander2