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Rebuilding: Is There A Sign?

 
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Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/21/2007 1:47:04 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		In another fictional association I am playing, I just can't seem to get off the ground. In 5 seasons, we have yet to finish with a winning record. It's a 2-league, 8-teams per league setup; we finished a best of 6th place in our league and then it's been downhill from there.

Nothing I do can get us out of the gutter. Trades, call ups, send downs, FA signings-- nothing.

So, while reading an article on MLB.com, I read about a certain team once that had a fire sale after multiple losing seasons with high-priced veterans on the roster (not to mention my recollection of the Marlins' fire sale after the '97 year). What should I look for and/or what should I consider when deciding if I should sell off my veteran and big-money players and rebuild my team from the ground up? Is something of that magnitude even possible in PureSim?

All thoughts welcomed.

EDIT: I misremembered. I thought it had been 8 losing seasons. The association has only been around for 6, including the one we're in now, so I changed that to 5 losing seasons. Not good, just... slightly less bad.

< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/21/2007 4:38:25 PM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean
Post #: 1
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/21/2007 2:20:05 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Maybe you can give us a look at the team roster and promising minor leaguers? After 8 years, it's sounding like the modern-day Pirates.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 2
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/21/2007 2:32:47 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Not a bad idea. It's a team I play at home; I'll print the current lineup, rotation and promising (if any) minor leaguers.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 3
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/21/2007 4:35:15 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Before I post those screenshots, I was really looking at the team in-depth.

Right now they're 44-46 and 8 games behind. We're doing better this year than any other, but I'm still VERY committed to this rebuilding idea. Only because after 5 losing seasons, being at 44-46 at roughly the halfway point of your 6th season, to me is not enough of an improvement to warrant dismissing the rebuilding plan.


_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 4
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/22/2007 9:01:17 PM   
throttle8


Posts: 168
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Frozen,

I have yet to play with fictional!!!:)

A couple of ideas:

Are you managing every game? If so, try running a week or a month at a time to see if your club can turn it around with the computer controlling things.

First, work on getting some very solid pitching. Once your rotation starts cutting down on runs scored & runners on base you may still be losing, but you will be making progress!!

After, the pitching is very stable, start working on some strong offensive power. Hopefully, it won't be long and you'll start seeing a turn-around!!!


I'm running one of my real player associations with a team that just won its 6th championship in the first 11 years of the association. If my memory is correct, I didn't make the playoffs in the first 1-2 years. After I was able to win a few championships, I started to get in a bad rut. My team would continue to have the best record in baseball for the season, go to the playoffs, and choke!!!!

After choking several times, I finally got back on track by 1st gaining a very solid pitching staff and then gaining a super powerful batting lineup (my last season I had 4 or 5 Gold Glove winners, for that year, in my line up).

The final "piece to the puzzle" is luck. Having Lady Luck on your side never hurts!!! (I've been very lucky not to have a lot injuries at the same time to my "club players"!!!

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 5
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/26/2007 10:11:27 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Looking through Throttle's suggestions, I reviewed my team in greater detail. It appears that our weakness is not so much in our offense as it is in our pitching staff. We have only 1 player with a winning record, and though it's a great record, he can't pitch every game. Our closer is efficient as is perhaps 2 of 6 relievers in the bullpen, but that's it. What angers me is a particular "ace" (a term which I now use loosely), our #1 pitcher who has remarkable stats, but doesn't bring it to the field. Of his three pitching stats (Stuff/Velo/Cont) all are over 80 and one is over 90. His record, if I recall correctly, is only 5-8 and his ERA in the mid-4s. My #2 guy isn't as good, though his numbers are still respectable (all three pitching stats over 70), and yet he too is unable to showcase this talent on the field.

Just this week we broke the .500 mark for the first time in the team's 5-year history; we sit at 60-56 as of end of day Monday. We're in 2nd place, but still 8.5 games behind. It's a close race too, as only 2 games seperates 2nd place from last.

Offensively we're doing fair. We have a huge power hitter in the #4 slot and good hitters with power in the #3 and #5 slots. Other than that, everyone else is simply unremarkable. I'll post the lineup tonight so you all can take a look.

The idea to rebuild is still strong, but it may not have to be a frame-off restoration...


< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/26/2007 10:13:52 PM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to throttle8)
Post #: 6
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 12:51:21 AM   
Taz0713


Posts: 186
Joined: 5/16/2006
Status: offline 		Hi FS,

Based on what you said above, I would ask you what your defense is like behind those pitchers.  Are you strong defensively up the middle?  Is the reason you Ace has a 4+ earn run average, because balls are getting through the infield (would a better defensive shortstop get to that ball?  Centerfielder?)  Do my pitchers induce groudballs or are they flyball pitchers?  How does this translate to my home park?

I just find for me if I get to worried about my pitching staff I seem to forget about these things and I just focus on pitching ratings.  It doesn't always do me any good to have a ground ball pitcher and have a poor defensive infield.  Or if I have flyball pitcher but have a ballpark with short porches?

Just another perspective.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 7
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 2:54:50 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Taz,

Thank you-- that is another perspective and will serve as a motivation to look into the matter a little deeper. Let me look in on my 2B and SS and see how they're performing. I know that I'm platooning the position at SS, but I believe my 2B is a steady one. I'll get that info and post it.

On the matter of the types of pitches my ace is throwing, I'm not quite sure how to gauge that. I suppose I could look at each of his pitches in the game, but it still only shows the last pitch which generated a result for the AB.

You inquiry on defense is something that I have persued to some degree. I tried to see how my team ranked defensively within the league, specifically by looking for Team Stats along the lines of Errors, but I was unable to find this. I can find errors for EACH PLAYER, but not the team as a whole. Maybe if I looked at all 2B and SS? Anyway, the absence of Errors in the Team Stats chart prompted a post in the "Little Things" thread Shaun started- let's see if that may materialize for 2008 (or is it 2009 now?).

Anyway, let me compile some info and share it with you guys. Your ideas, suggestions and observations are helping immensely. Thank you all!


_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Taz0713)
Post #: 8
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 3:35:46 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Some info:

My starting 2B has 9 errors in 94 games played.

My starting SS, Battiste, has 1 error in 21 games while his platooning-buddy, Kirkland, has 1 error in 43 games. I recall having traded off my starting SS because of his horrid, not bad but horrid hitting (13-for-78, 1 HR, 7 RBI). Kirkland is the slightly better hitter with a .234 average / 0HRs / 10RBI while Battiste lags behind hitting only .186 / 2 HRs / 7 RBIs.

That's my middle infield.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 9
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 3:41:43 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Key West Rum Runners - Lineup

Here you will see what I was mentioning earlier. Our good, big power hitter is in the #3 slot (I had thought #4 earlier); Rafael Vargas. Our two other strong hitters are in the #4, Sosa, and #5 Lange. Our leadoff, Manson, hits hard, but not often. Fortunately his speed makes up for this; he's currently 4th in the association with steals. Otherwise, everyone else is just... unremarkable.








Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 10
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 3:46:38 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Key West Rum Runners - Rotation

As I also mentioned earlier, you will immediately notice who sticks out like a Sore Thumb (that's his current nickname, too), Ferguson. I don't know why he's pitched so well when others with better numbers have not, but you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, so I'm not going to peek. Mazella is the high-stat/low-performance standout and I'll post a screenshot of him next. Tyler just came off the DL, so I hadn't included him in the "few pitchers with winning records" group. Lambert, acquired 2 months ago, is our best reliever and while his ERA doesn't reflect it, Krake is also quite amazing-- he just had a bad outing the other day. Hendrix, the closer, was better a few games ago and has been struggling as of late.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/27/2007 3:50:06 PM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 11
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 3:52:13 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Mazella: The Non-Conformist

Here is a screenshot of Mike Mazella our "ace". His numbers are in fact MUCH better than I thought; this is him in all his statistical godliness. However, it seems that these rankings have somehow not translated into on-the-field performance. Why? Because. Just because. I truly have no answer for this. With numbers this high and production that (relatively) low, I have strongly considered him great trade bait to bring in amazing future prospects; in the spirit of the Marlins and the Willis/Cabrera trade.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/28/2007 4:51:07 AM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 12
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 3:54:41 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Prompted by Taz's words, I see that behind him, in 155+ innings pitched, my defense has only turned 3 Double Plays. This cannot be good.



< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/27/2007 3:56:27 PM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 13
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 4:05:09 PM   
Max 86


Posts: 699
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		Looking at Mazella's page, the first thing that jumps out is his "fair" condition.  Maybe resting him a start in the rotation will bring that up and improve his performance.

Generally speaking, if offensive production isn't great, look at the left vs. right battintg avg for each position player. You may have some guys that have a high overall average but low avg vs lefties, for instance.

How much trading do you do? I am only in the seond season of my association as having only purchased the game recently, but I found that a lot of wheeling and dealing had to be done to put together a decent team that first year. Don't be afraid to dump those high contracts-underperformers for other players.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 14
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 4:09:24 PM   
Max 86


Posts: 699
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		3.87 era isn't terrible.  Lots of Ks with few BBs, I would wonder about his run support. What are the scores of the games this guy loses? He can't be giving up too runs many per game. Hitters hit 255 left and 237 right against him.  He looks good to me!

Look at his run support.

(in reply to Max 86)
Post #: 15
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 6:10:21 PM   
Bustoff


Posts: 259
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Columbia, MO
Status: offline 		On paper, Mazella is golden. He's allowed fewer than one hit per inning, and his WHIP is a respectable 1.12. But 25 HRs in 21 games sounds a bit high to me. That's one hit of every 6 going downtown. Still, an ERA of 3.87 ain't bad. I'm with Max...look at his run support and compare it with Ferguson's. Their ERAs are not all that far apart.

_____________________________

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." -- Satchel Paige








(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 16
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/27/2007 6:53:23 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Seriously guys, thank you. Your input means a lot and I will act on it immediately. I'm at work now, but when I get home, I'll post Ferguson's player card for comparison purposes then list the info you're inquiring regarding Mazella's run support; I'll post the results of his games.




_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Bustoff)
Post #: 17
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 4:55:20 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Malcom Ferguson: A Diamond In The Rough

Here he is, as understandable as the Bermuda Triangle and as simple as NASA-level mathematics, Malcom Ferguson; "The man who did, but no one knew how". Just as the saying goes of how you should never look a gift horse in the mouth, I don't question WHY he accomplishes what he does, but I confess my curiosity as to HOW. Nevertheless, please feel free to dissect him at your leisure.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/28/2007 4:56:27 AM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 18
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 5:03:12 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Standings

It looks almost hilarious how we are in second place, and there's quite a struggle for the next few slots, yet we're still SO far behind the division leader. Odd.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 19
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 5:49:30 AM   
SpharV2

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline 		You mention the errors and fielding % for your middle infielders, but what about range on the defense?  Increasing the range (Especially up the middle of the defense) can sometimes have a huge impact on runs scored.  I will sacrifice a LOT of offense in CF if I can find a good fielding guy with stellar range because he can prevent a good number of runs.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 20
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 8:08:49 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		FS, you can't go wrong with building on pitching. Trade Ferguson ASAP. Get some value while you can. Go for some strong inside defense. Keep Mazella, for his potential. See, what's happening is that everyone is throwing their team-building philosophies at you. For me, it's pitching and defense. First, you prevent runs. Secondly, you find ways to score runs.

Number ONE in PS, to my mind, is a strong pitching staff. You build your team around it. Better to win 2-1 than to lose 11-10, if you catch my drift.

(in reply to SpharV2)
Post #: 21
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 5:29:02 PM   
Bustoff


Posts: 259
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Columbia, MO
Status: offline 		OK, Ferguson's numbers don't look all that different from Mazella's. Negligible difference in WHIP, HRs about the same, etc. etc. I think the big difference has to be in run support. If this is the case, I would chalk it up as an inexplicable anomaly--like the '69 Mets or Dock Ellis' acid-fueled no-hitter. Mazella is pitching on days when his team can't score runs, and Ferguson, while not a bad pitcher--is mostly just one lucky SOB.

I'm with KG. Good pitching is bedrock to a good team. Trade Ferguson while he still has some value--in a couple of years his arm is going to go soft on him. SpharV2 also makes a good point. I also will gladly sacrifice some offense from my SS or 2B if he has a magic glove; Dal Maxvill couldn't hit his weight for the Cardinals, but he sucked up ground balls like a Shop-Vac.

_____________________________

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." -- Satchel Paige








(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 22
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 6:01:05 PM   
throttle8


Posts: 168
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		I'd say keep him. If he is the only solid pitcher you have & if you like his numbers, why get rid of him. As to how long he'll last, just look below at my ACE!!!







Attachment (1)

(in reply to Bustoff)
Post #: 23
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 6:03:52 PM   
throttle8


Posts: 168
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		And here is his playoff stats.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to throttle8)
Post #: 24
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 8:15:50 PM   
Bustoff


Posts: 259
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Columbia, MO
Status: offline 		Hmmm. You've only got Ferguson for this season and the next, and he is winning games, lucky SOB or not. I may have to change my opinion on this a bit. He's probably as good as he's gonna get (potential of 1), and he may have at least one good season left in him after this one. Maybe even two. Perhaps you ought to keep him around. Maybe offer him a 1-year extension, and see if the amounts he will sign for go up or down as the length of the contract increases--this is a good indicator for me if a player has peaked. If he's willing to go another year for $6 million, and 2 years for $5.8 million...you can see where that is going. If he wants $10 mil, maybe it's too early to pull the plug.

I hope this makes sense. It's Friday and my brain hurts.

_____________________________

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." -- Satchel Paige








(in reply to throttle8)
Post #: 25
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 10:15:22 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Bustoff,

I do the same thing with "aging" pitchers when they start heading into their 30s; I look at the asking price for a contract renewal and do the 1-year thing. In the case of Ferguson though, I see the value of trading him off while he's "hot" and attractive to other teams as well as the gain in retaining him with year-to-year extensions, failing to renew it after I begin to witness obvious signs of deterioration. One little detail that may have gone overlooked by most is the in-game date; August 17th. It's too late to trade him for this season. I can consider that as an option after it's all over, but as we all know, players just don't seem to trade as well after the season ends, when their stats are all zeroes.

Thus, with the trade option off the table, I'm going to go ahead and ride him out to see what he does. It's like the case of Orioles outfielder Brady Anderson- he hit 50 home runs in 1996 but never hit more than 24 any of the other 14 years he played. I think that with Ferguson, I'm going to go with whatever principle Anderson's manager at the time probably adopted, "I don't know and I can't explain what's happening, but I'm not going to touch him".

On the matter of Mazella, whatever little drought or slump or funk he's going through cannot last forever with numbers like this. I'm keeping him and there's no doubt about it. Perhaps the two of them would be the foundation, the bastions of stability for an entirely revamped and reworking pitching staff?

About defense, I must agree with what you are all saying. I have been blinded by the offensive power from my other fictional association and the team I manage there. Focusing on players' defensive abilities over their offensive abilities is something that I have not only underestimated, but (embarassingly enough) publically admitted I underestimated, and then still failed to do nothing to improve on it.

Before sending him down, I had a starting SS by the name of DeWitt who was a really good fielder, but he couldn't hit the ground if he fell. As offense-challenged as he may be, perhaps its time for me to make book the flight and bring him up to the majors. I'm going to start really looking at defensive capabilities and pitching, as KG suggested. Then, I'll build around that.

I really loved the winning 2-1 vs. winning 11-10 comparisons and I completely see the logic and sensibility in this.

At the end of the season, I'm going to rework the infield and look close at our outfielders. Priority will go to Mazella and Ferguson and 1 or 2 others on the pitching staff, while everyone else is getting shipped or traded out. I'm going to look at our minors and see put added weight in fielding capability; a detail that I have allowed to slip too long in favor of a heavy bat.

I'll continue to post here as time goes on to share interesting changes and events, but it looks like a major renovation of the Key West Rum Runners is coming; even if the new end-plan differs from the original one.

Thanks again, everyone!


_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Bustoff)
Post #: 26
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/28/2007 11:22:26 PM   
Bustoff


Posts: 259
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Columbia, MO
Status: offline 		Mazella and Ferguson and...pray for rain?

Good luck in your rebuilding efforts.

Wow. People who have never met carrying on a serious discussion about people who don't even exist. Gotta love it!

_____________________________

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." -- Satchel Paige








(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 27
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/29/2007 1:30:09 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bustoff

Wow. People who have never met carrying on a serious discussion about people who don't even exist. Gotta love it!


That's what makes this such a great game.


_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Bustoff)
Post #: 28
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/29/2007 2:04:58 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bustoff

Mazella and Ferguson and...pray for rain?

Good luck in your rebuilding efforts.

Wow. People who have never met carrying on a serious discussion about people who don't even exist. Gotta love it!


Ray Kinsella's brother-in-law:"I thought you were watching some sort of game?
Do you see the baseball people?"

Ray's daughter: "Of course I do".


(in reply to Bustoff)
Post #: 29
RE: Rebuilding: Is There A Sign? - 12/29/2007 2:08:06 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bustoff

Mazella and Ferguson and...pray for rain?

Good luck in your rebuilding efforts.

Wow. People who have never met carrying on a serious discussion about people who don't even exist. Gotta love it!


Ray Kinsella's brother-in-law:"I thought you were watching some sort of game?
Do you see the baseball people?"

Ray's daughter: "Of course I do".



KG,

...later on in the movie...

Ray Kinsella's brother-in-law: "Hey, when did these baseball players get here?"



< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 12/29/2007 2:09:27 AM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 30
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