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RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition

 
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RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/19/2007 6:58:53 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		"The published screenshot shows no Kokota Trail - never mind the flanking trail to the South of it - and so we might like to add such things."


Sid, you missed the post where Andrew explained that there are no trails on the map anymore. There are primary and secondary roads, with secondary road movement faster than the old trail movement. So if he were to have put the Kokota Track on the map, then movement along it would have been much faster than IRL. There was also little chance that track could have supplied any major divisional movement, so to add a road in those hexes to provide more supply than you would get cross country would also be a mistake, IMO.

I believe that the decision was that trail movement is basically cross country movement, so it is better to create a secondary road system that more properly portrays military movement on the map.

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Post #: 91
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/19/2007 7:38:43 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yeah, he "missed" it...

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Post #: 92
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/20/2007 8:14:49 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I'll add this. I think that it is fine to add the Kokoda Track if you only do it as eye candy - i.e., draw it in but leave the pwhex file as a cross country hexside.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 93
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/20/2007 8:23:44 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I understand why the track is left off the map, but something must be included to make the line of the track superior to using a different line of approach. But make sure its only a foot track, not usable by anything on wheels or tracks.

Plus the Jaure track was even worse.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 12/20/2007 8:24:47 AM >

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Post #: 94
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/21/2007 3:25:41 PM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline 		Hummm  after reading these those complaining of paying for  the expansion... why complaining?

It IS a industry  thing in creating
expansions...


For example Civ III... then came the Expansion Play the world... at a bit less then the Civ 3, need civ 3... then came the Conquests
expansion again less then civ 3, needing civ 3 installed,  conquests included the PTW so  it included really 2 expansions, I recall Civ 3 was around 40-50$ with Conquests a 29$
add on.

Current Civ IV has also expansions requiring have Civ 4 ($50) and expansion at $29

So  I don't  see the validity of complaints about needing buy this Witp Expansion.

Hopefully yes it be less then WITP but if it requires have WITP installed to use it then
Matrix  can make a good bit  at a price lesser then WITP  since current WITP users would buy and new buyers would need be buying
both witp and AE..





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Post #: 95
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/21/2007 8:04:16 PM   
DSwain


Posts: 171
Joined: 9/23/2006
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I'll be purchasing on day one, pretty much regardless of price (within reason, naturally!) Kudos to Matrix for keeping up the work on this classic game.



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Post #: 96
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/21/2007 8:33:08 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		I second the kudos! Just found out who the artists are going to be for AE. It's going to be an INCREDIBLE gaming experience!

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Post #: 97
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/21/2007 8:43:37 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwain

I'll be purchasing on day one, pretty much regardless of price (within reason, naturally!) Kudos to Matrix for keeping up the work on this classic game.




You've "skirted" the question Matrix is dying to know---how much is "within reason"? $30? $45? $60? Maybe the forum needs to provide them with some "input" on the question...

(in reply to DSwain)
Post #: 98
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/21/2007 8:53:44 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		For me personally...anything over $400 and I would have to do a serious cost benefit analysis. Either that or postpone my next computer upgrade for another year. Under $400 I think my demand is pretty inflexible enough that I would have to buy it. I'd just have to cut back on a few other luxuries. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 99
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/21/2007 9:58:37 PM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwain

I'll be purchasing on day one, pretty much regardless of price (within reason, naturally!) Kudos to Matrix for keeping up the work on this classic game.




You've "skirted" the question Matrix is dying to know---how much is "within reason"? $30? $45? $60? Maybe the forum needs to provide them with some "input" on the question...



Under $100.00 works for me.


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Post #: 100
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 2:27:50 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

For me personally...anything over $400 and I would have to do a serious cost benefit analysis. Either that or postpone my next computer upgrade for another year. Under $400 I think my demand is pretty inflexible enough that I would have to buy it. I'd just have to cut back on a few other luxuries. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.



So you would pay five times as much for an "upgrade package" as you did for the original game? That certainly shows a lot of faith in the new design team. Maybe I should re-phrase the question...

How much would a "reasonable person" consider "within reason" for the AE expansion package?

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 101
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 2:36:20 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I'm thinking, as a "reasonable person" between $50 -$100. Doing a cost analysis of how much time I spend playing WitP (3 PBEM's) and on this board, I've gotten my money's worth.

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Post #: 102
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 3:50:37 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm thinking, as a "reasonable person" between $50 -$100. Doing a cost analysis of how much time I spend playing WitP (3 PBEM's) and on this board, I've gotten my money's worth.


My thoughts also. Pennies per minute is a good deal.



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Post #: 103
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 3:57:16 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline 		Seems like a no brainer to buy if you like the theme.

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Post #: 104
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 5:50:59 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Okay, the price is lower now, but what was WITP when it came out - $70 US?

That equals 7,000 pennies. So, to be at a penny per minute you have to have played 7000 minutes or 116.67 hours. I suspect most people here exceeded that within the first two months after purchase. I suspect many are down to only a small number of cents per hour.

Look at it this way. After 10 hours of play, it's $7.00 per hour.
After 100 hours of play, it's 70 cents per hour.
After 1,000 hours of play, it's 7 cents per hour.

Suppose someone who bought the game when it came out in August 2004 played an average of 5 hours per week. Rounding the time since purchase to 40 months, that comes out to

3 years and 4 months = (approximately) (3 x 52) + 17 = 173 weeks x 5 hours/week = 865 hours
7000 pennies / 865 hours = (approximately) 8.1 pennies per hour of play.

I really don't understand the whining over a price that hasn't even been settled yet.

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Post #: 105
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 9:30:51 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Again: whatever you want i'll pay for it.
Yesterday night i went out with my GF Mk. XII. The pre-dinner cocktail costed me 20 euros. The dinner itslef for 2 costed me 88,50 euros. Her christmas gift costed me 450 euros.
...yes, i have to admit she's fine, good looking, even intelligent to be a female...but i never think about her when i play witp, while i often think about witp when playing her

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Post #: 106
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 12:57:38 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, he "missed" it...



You just can't resist the temptation, can you?

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Post #: 107
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:11:06 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"The published screenshot shows no Kokota Trail - never mind the flanking trail to the South of it - and so we might like to add such things."


Sid, you missed the post where Andrew explained that there are no trails on the map anymore. There are primary and secondary roads, with secondary road movement faster than the old trail movement. So if he were to have put the Kokota Track on the map, then movement along it would have been much faster than IRL. There was also little chance that track could have supplied any major divisional movement, so to add a road in those hexes to provide more supply than you would get cross country would also be a mistake, IMO.

I believe that the decision was that trail movement is basically cross country movement, so it is better to create a secondary road system that more properly portrays military movement on the map.



The Kokota Trail - look at photographs - qualifies as a US secondary road - except where the "steps" exist. Same for the Kappa Kappa Trail - which is slightly longer - but which has no steps anywhere.

I don't understand what it means not to have trails as in UV or WITP ? I bet they somehow are de facto in cross country movement rates/logistics rules. If there are no trails - there is a great deal that is going to be missing from the map system - and "trails" was always a misnomer anyway: these trails are poor roads. There are literally trails everywhere - and Andrew wrote that several times - so we were using a wierd name for "important trails" or "minor roads".

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 108
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:11:58 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, he "missed" it...



And this is a reason to smile? I worry about you sometimes...

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Post #: 109
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:18:50 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I really don't understand the whining over a price that hasn't even been settled yet.



What whining? The question is simple enough. How much should Matrix expect a "reasonable person" to pay for the Adimral's Edition Expansion Pack?

For some it's obvious price is no object, and some others have made it plain it's not what they want at any price. But Matrix sold something like 5-10,000 copies of WITP..., and those purchasers are the prime audience for AE. Probably 90% of them are somewhere in between "will pay any price" and "don't want at any price"..., and most of them don't post here regularly (or at all); but they represent the majority of the potential sales. I was just hoping to get some of them to come "out of the woodwork" and express an opinion.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 110
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:19:49 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I understand why the track is left off the map, but something must be included to make the line of the track superior to using a different line of approach. But make sure its only a foot track, not usable by anything on wheels or tracks.

Plus the Jaure track was even worse.



There needs to be some reason not to go cross country in any random direction - a reason that both sides preferred the route they did over alternatives - and why the Allies were able to supply DIVISIONS on the opposite side of the mountains. There are some fine photographs of Kappa Kappa with US military vehicles - and you can personally walk or drive the Kokota Trail - for a fee - today. I grew up in a wilderness area where "the definition of a road is a way through" and we (as children) delighted taking aliens to our cabin or other places along a "road" no one could even see - no tracks at all. Such a route is not going to stand up to heavy military traffic - there is no foundation at all. But Kokota and Kappa were economic routes - they existed for reasons of trade - and were in some sense both engineered and maintained - although it is a minimalist sense. In Australian vernacular the term "track" is not a completely unsurveyed, untended route - it is an official route and it has some utility - and is far safer than just pushing off into the bush with no sense of where the ground is going to support a vehicle - never mind many vehicles.

I don't care what terminology is used - but SOMETHING needs to tell players (via art) and code why to use this route instead of that one just crossing hexes? That something also explains why a battle is fought back and forth - several times - along a Kokota Trail - and there are more than a few other such cases.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 111
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:23:02 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

For me personally...anything over $400 and I would have to do a serious cost benefit analysis. Either that or postpone my next computer upgrade for another year. Under $400 I think my demand is pretty inflexible enough that I would have to buy it. I'd just have to cut back on a few other luxuries. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.



So you would pay five times as much for an "upgrade package" as you did for the original game? That certainly shows a lot of faith in the new design team. Maybe I should re-phrase the question...

How much would a "reasonable person" consider "within reason" for the AE expansion package?



No one ever accused me of being "a reasonable person" --

but the new team is far better than the original one - and presumable so is the budget -

For me - anything under a thousand dollars would be worth it - even if I refused to play it (due to lack of trails for example) - just to get ideas from.



(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 112
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:38:20 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
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From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

We do have what Andrew has told us. And we do have some partial screenshots - which show absent certain things that perhaps we wish were present. The published screenshot shows no Kokota Trail - never mind the flanking trail to the South of it - and so we might like to add such things.


There is no Kokoda Trail because there are no trails in AE at all. As bradfordkay mentioned, I worked on the assumption that ALL hexes (at least those with a population) will have some sort of trail in them, so to cover all of them there are no individual trails - the movement/supply rates are based on the assumed presence of "trails" in every hex.

For example in New Guinea there were a very large number of foot trails covering the island. If all of them were represented (and not just the well known ones such as the Kokoda) then the map would resemble a spider web of trails.

Andrew

Edit: Sorry - bradfordkay mentioned it above, not Andy.

< Message edited by Andrew Brown -- 12/22/2007 1:47:07 PM >

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Post #: 113
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 1:49:19 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		That is quite true - and just what I expected - there are "invisible" trails.

The problem is - in New Guinea for example - there are lots of places you could not - or would not - go. Is there a difference between a hex with mines and plantations and villages in it - and one that is not inhabited in a civilized sense?
Why would one go to Wau by the historical route - which includes a NON trail segment - but mostly trails - instead of other routes that will seem OK on a map with no marks - but which were IRL impossible? There is ONE way to get from Port Moresby to Wau - and indeed ONE way from Lae to Wau as well.

It seems to me there is a possibility (the way pwhex is built) of coding "cross country" for some directions and not others. Can this be implemented?

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 114
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 2:32:18 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Is there a difference between a hex with mines and plantations and villages in it - and one that is not inhabited in a civilized sense?


There are a few short segments of secondary road in PNG, and that is it. As mentioned foot trails are assumed to exist everywhere else.

There may very well be remote parts of PNG that have no foot trails at all, but these would indeed be very remote - far from the bases included in the game - and I can't imagine why a player would want to send a ground unit there.

quote:

Why would one go to Wau by the historical route - which includes a NON trail segment - but mostly trails - instead of other routes that will seem OK on a map with no marks - but which were IRL impossible? There is ONE way to get from Port Moresby to Wau - and indeed ONE way from Lae to Wau as well.


I guess players will take the route that is the fastest, which would probably be to land on the coast South of Wau and walk across PNG from there. You could walk all the way from Port Moresby if you really wanted to, through a swamp hex, but that would take a very long time and take its toll on the LCUs.

I think players will follow the path of "least resistance". If it turns out to create dramatically ahistorical outcomes due to problems with the map then the map can be changed.

quote:

It seems to me there is a possibility (the way pwhex is built) of coding "cross country" for some directions and not others. Can this be implemented?


Not sure what you mean by this? You can block movement between hexes by using blocked hexsides, but I only have those in areas of very high mountains, such as the Himalayas.

Andrew

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 115
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 2:46:24 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

...but i never think about her when i play witp, while i often think about witp when playing her



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Post #: 116
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 3:51:28 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

...but i never think about her when i play witp, while i often think about witp when playing her




What? d'u think i should see a doctor?

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Post #: 117
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 4:20:19 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I really don't understand the whining over a price that hasn't even been settled yet.



What whining? The question is simple enough. How much should Matrix expect a "reasonable person" to pay for the Adimral's Edition Expansion Pack?

For some it's obvious price is no object, and some others have made it plain it's not what they want at any price. But Matrix sold something like 5-10,000 copies of WITP..., and those purchasers are the prime audience for AE. Probably 90% of them are somewhere in between "will pay any price" and "don't want at any price"..., and most of them don't post here regularly (or at all); but they represent the majority of the potential sales. I was just hoping to get some of them to come "out of the woodwork" and express an opinion.



Much of it depends on Matrix's strategy: is this a bid to attract new players, or a bid to secure revenue from the existing customer base?

Also, and I simply don't know this because I haven't been reading a lot of these threads, will the expansion be stand alone or require WiTP original to play?

If it is a stand alone offering, I would suspect a price in the $70-80 range like the original. If it is an add on, and requires purchase of WiTP in addition, I'm guessing they are going to keep it under $30 -- simply because if you bundle the original and the expansion you want to keep the total purchase price under the psychological barrier of $100.

Now, those guesses are mere pricing, not what the game is worth to dedicated players! Your term "reasonable person," while simple enough is rather hard to define. It is quite clear a number of dedicated players would (gladly) trade-in their spouse and/or mortgage the house for a new expansion pack!

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 118
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 5:46:37 PM   
admgrraven


Posts: 45
Joined: 8/28/2007
From: Cuyahoga Falls, OH
Status: offline 		What I want to know is.
Has Matrix ever commited to doing a WITP 2? This might be 2.
What could they do to make this game better?

I know they could do more programming to take advantage of the new technology that is coming out but hey why would I pay for more eye candy when all I really need is a picture of torpedos slamming into the Big E :)

Am I missing something here?

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 119
RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition - 12/22/2007 6:05:22 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bakerman

What I want to know is.
Has Matrix ever commited to doing a WITP 2? This might be 2.
What could they do to make this game better?

I know they could do more programming to take advantage of the new technology that is coming out but hey why would I pay for more eye candy when all I really need is a picture of torpedos slamming into the Big E :)

Am I missing something here?



It's been fairly obvious from the comments of the AE Team that this is NOT WITP II. They themselves discuss it as a future goal, and AE as "learning to walk before you try to run". My guess is that from Matrix viewpoint AE is more of a "trial balloon" to see just how much interest is out here, and if a major investment in designing and developing a WITP II would be worthwhile from a business perspective,

(in reply to admgrraven)
Post #: 120
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