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Operational Art of War Tutorials - 12/23/2007 2:26:16 AM

MikeyBikey

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Joined: 7/13/2007
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That last post didn't have a body. The tutorials, I can find, but they don't teach. I assume that there is some text somewhere that explains the tutorial, but I have yet to find it. Any suggestions>

Mike

Post #: 1

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 12/23/2007 3:02:32 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeyBikey

That last post didn't have a body. The tutorials, I can find, but they don't teach. I assume that there is some text somewhere that explains the tutorial, but I have yet to find it. Any suggestions>

Mike

Hi Mike,

Have you patched the game, and looked at the Whatsnew file? The Whatsnew is Matrix's version of a readme file. You can find a link for it in the Windows Start Menu items at the bottom of the slide out menu for TOAW III. Open that up and look on page one. There you will see a image file at the bottom of that page that shows a screenshot. The accompaning text describes the function of the red circled button which opens documentation for scenarios. Each of the tutorial scenarios, as do many others, have attached documents in various file formats that describe the scenarios. In the case of the four tutorial scenarios, these documents also act as tutorial guides. You can open them up, along with the scenario, so that you can alt-tab between the applications viewing them (MS Word, Adobe Readers, etc.) and TOAW III. Or, you can split screen between the apps, or you can simply print out the documents.

(in reply to MikeyBikey)

Post #: 2

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 12/23/2007 5:12:38 AM

MikeyBikey

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/13/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for the quick reply. I previously emailed Matrix and asked if their games downloaded patched. They replied, Kinda, sorta, it depends. Well I did the 3 patches and will work on the tutorials.

Thanks again and have a Happy Holiday.

Mike

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 3

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 12/23/2007 6:13:52 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeyBikey

Thanks for the quick reply. I previously emailed Matrix and asked if their games downloaded patched. They replied, Kinda, sorta, it depends. Well I did the 3 patches and will work on the tutorials.

Thanks again and have a Happy Holiday.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Matrix has a variety of developers in its stable, with a plethora of different patch policies. Some of their games do have the most recent version in the download, while others do not. TOAW III's download, and physical shipment is, unfortunately, not the most recent version. With regard to TOAW III's patches, they are cumulative. Thus, you only ever need to download and install the most recent one. No need to do sequential downloads and installs. Have fun, and happy holidays to you, as well.

(in reply to MikeyBikey)

Post #: 4

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/5/2008 2:24:11 AM

Obsolete

Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

This thread reminds me, that I have TOAW still in my closet, as I can't seem to get away from Civ IV BtS expansion.

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 5

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/5/2008 12:46:10 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
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Actually...

There is nothing to stop a seasoned player from actually creating a scenario which, when played, works exactly like a tutorial.

At one point I was working on such a "Tutorial Scenario" but it generated absolutely no interest, so I ditched it.

I think the TOAW folks revel in their "this is a grognard game" when actually, it is fairly simple to play. Hence, the creation of a "Tutorial Scenario" to allow easy access to gameplay appears to be an unwelcome initiative.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Obsolete)

Post #: 6

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/5/2008 1:12:52 PM

Widell

Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
I think the TOAW folks revel in their "this is a grognard game" when actually, it is fairly simple to play. Hence, the creation of a "Tutorial Scenario" to allow easy access to gameplay appears to be an unwelcome initiative.

Did this actually happen like you describe it? That's a shame as few (most likely no) initiatives should be unwelcome. Being a long time TOAW addict, I would not call it a grog game at all. Of course it can be (FitE etc), but many (most?) scenarios are not that complex once you get past (a not very steep if you ask me) the first climb of the learning curve. I hope this thread gets moved to where it belongs (the TOAW forum) and that the developers read it and ask you to breath life in that tutorial scenario again. Also, the players that are ready to take on a monster like FitE should maybe not be the judges of whether a tutorial is needed or not

.

Just my humble 2 cents.....

_____________________________

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 7

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/5/2008 3:35:32 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell
Did this actually happen like you describe it?

Of course it did.

Many folks have asked for advice on how to play the game on the TOAW forums. They got the basic.. go learn it yourself answer.

And yes, at one time I had 3 scenarios in work (all of which I posted threads on) which were 1) a tutorial scenario, 2) a SciFi scenario based on Alien called "Bug Hunt" (which involved a huge graphic modification of the game) and 3) an alternative WWII scenario in which I was attempting to use the engine to create a "strategy" game in which the player had the ability to determine his own force mix and weapons development through "research."

Received very little support on the forum, none from the developers, and in once case, the "Bug Hunt" scenario, was asked not to publish it. Guess it wasn't "groggy" enough or some such, but obviously a heresy.

In the end, the communities lack of interest resulted in my lack of interest, and when I reformatted my hard drive I let literally hundreds of hours of work disappear into the ether.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell
I hope this thread gets moved to where it belongs (the TOAW forum)

Well, I don't. I hope it stays here, in general discussion where it belongs, because on the TOAW forum, it will just melt away as so many other posts asking the same question have done before them.

There is absolutely no reason why a tutorial scenario was not created and included in the basic game. Anyone who has ever "dabbled" in scenario creation could put one together quite easily.

Why one wasn't developed? No idea. A "no risk" mentality of catering only to folks who have at one time or another played or were playing various editions of the game, thus seen as unnecessary... probably.

But I would suggest, as I did in my original post, that a "tutorial scenario" which illustrated just how remarkeably easy the game is to play, would somehow bust the myth that TOAW is a real "grognard" game.

At the least it shows an arrogance and unwillingness to cater to new players and try to expand the player base at the expense of pleasing the vocal mob who seek to mire themselves in even more and more arcane minutia.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Widell)

Post #: 8

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/5/2008 9:17:12 PM

JAMiAM

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Ray,

I find your mischaracterizations a bit misleading - whether intentional, or not. There are four scenarios used as tutorials in TOAW III. They each have accompanying tutorial documents that illustrate various aspects of the basics in TOAW III. This quote of yours, I find particularly misleading, as it implies that Ralph or myself (the developers) actively dissuaded you from doing what we, infact yet implicitly, encourage people to do. That is, publish your work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
Received very little support on the forum, none from the developers, and in once case, the "Bug Hunt" scenario, was asked not to publish it. Guess it wasn't "groggy" enough or some such, but obviously a heresy.

Someone not better informed, might walk away from this statement with a complete misunderstanding of the facts, facts that are publically on record in such thread as these

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1234517&mpage=1&key=
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1261048&mpage=1&key=�
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1206382&mpage=1&key=

Now, for the most part, Ralph and I don't actively "encourage" people to design scenarios on an individual basis. There are dozens of active scenario designers out there, and if we were take the time to individually hold their hands, gently pat their heads, and whisper soothing words of encouragement in their ears at night so that they could sleep well, we wouldn't get anything done. Or, have lives of our own, for that matter. Now, I know for a fact that Ralph has mentioned your bug hunt scenario in forum or newgroup posts, in reference to the flexibility that we have already built into TOAW III, so don't think that your work has gone unnoticed.

You may not feel that you got the attention you wanted to get, since the threads may have drifted down several pages in the forum, but that is simply the nature of forum posts. It should be noted that TOAW III has the third most active gaming forum on this site, second only to such long-term stalwarts as WitP, and SPWaW. As such, the speed that a particular forum thread drifts off to the oblivion of page 2+ is accelerated without the active participation of the interested parties.

If you ever wish to design a tutorial scenario that does a better job than those which are included with the game, I would love to see it. That way, we can get it included in a patch. Feel free to contact me, by email or PM, at any time, should you need help, or have it finished.

Regards,
James Mathews

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 9

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/5/2008 9:37:49 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Just wanted to chime in here and mention that we're in the process of going through the online store and updating all downloadable versions to the latest update revision. That should be done by the end of January, until then it's a mixed bag version-wise. However, installing updates is pretty painless and all our games for at least the last year have come with a new TrueUpdate client that does it automatically as well.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 10

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/6/2008 1:29:29 AM

marcusm

Posts: 776
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From: G�teborg/Sweden
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On Talonsofts boards there was a great tutorial for the Korean scenario floating around.
I mean a much better version than the one you get with this game. If anyone has that he can post it here.

It did alot to get me into this game.

I have also heard that the workshops at gamesquads forums are very good. Never tried them myself though.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 11

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/6/2008 1:36:09 AM

Widell

Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
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I hope my response did not come through as questioning what happened. That was not the intention, it was more like WHAT! Did "they" say THAT!. Sometimes writing is harder than talking.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
And yes, at one time I had 3 scenarios in work (all of which I posted threads on) which were 1) a tutorial scenario, 2) a SciFi scenario based on Alien called "Bug Hunt" (which involved a huge graphic modification of the game) and 3) an alternative WWII scenario in which I was attempting to use the engine to create a "strategy" game in which the player had the ability to determine his own force mix and weapons development through "research."

I remember the Bug Hunt and the strategy ones, and also that not everyone was convinced it was "a proper thing to do". Personally, I think your work was interesting in the sense they (like the Trafalgar scenario) stretched the capabilities of the TOAW engine beyond limits the developers most likely thought it not capable of. I guess that could be causing the "controversy" as stretching limits will never be easy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
...and in once case, the "Bug Hunt" scenario, was asked not to publish it.

That I find strange. TOAW is a game that gets its lifeblood from the scenarios published by the community. Some scenarios you like, some are not your cup of tea. I truly hope you put that behind you and publish your work. Maybe the Bug Hunt catered to a niche within the niche within the niche if you know what I mean, but to ask you to not publish is simply wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
In the end, the communities lack of interest resulted in my lack of interest, and when I reformatted my hard drive I let literally hundreds of hours of work disappear into the ether.

It saddens me to read this, and I curse myself for not acting more supportive at that time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
But I would suggest, as I did in my original post, that a "tutorial scenario" which illustrated just how remarkeably easy the game is to play, would somehow bust the myth that TOAW is a real "grognard" game.

I second that. Even the Korea scenario JamiJam refers to may be too complex for a true newbie. Have to admit I zoomed through that part of TOAW many years ago. Was it from TOAW II? I think you could even use something like the Grenada scenario (Is that one still included?) for a tutorial. I remember I played that to learn the basics, and you get to do naval, air, ground and events on a very small map with few turns, so the tutorial can actually be the whole scenario.

Finally, you may want to have a look at the community over at Advanced Tactics (and for the record, I play both games, and no, I am not comparing AT with TOAW in this statement!) which is very open to out of the box thinking since the game is fairly new, and the scenario base is limited (also not saying the TOAW community is not open etc. You get the message right?) and your creative ideas may be an easier sell....

_____________________________

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 12

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/6/2008 3:07:32 AM

*Lava*

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@JAMiAM

Hey, I have nothing but high praise for the development team that brought TOAW back to life... and posted such on numerous forums.

I do believe I was among the first to post new scenarios for TOAW III in my efforts to promote the game, and no.. I didn't need anybody to pat me on the butt to do that... thank you very much.

Sorry, but for a game, which is advertised as having "Complexity: Intermediate to Advanced", not to have an easily accessible Tutorial Scenario is just a darn disservice to the game. Especially considering how easily it can be done.

It's not something that a user should have to design.

In case ya'll haven't noticed, but most games nowadays get rapped pretty hard for having poor documentation or tutorials.

And no, I didn't remark that ya'll dissuaded me from creating a tutorial scenario, you just completely ignored the need for such a scenario, just as you ignored the subject in your well crafted repost.

Sorry, J-Man, my post was not an attack on neither you nor Ralph, though it is apparent that you have taken it that way. TOAWIII is a great game and you guys did a great job bringing it back to life.

You have plenty of fans. You have an active forum. And you still have lots of folks out there who think the game is far more complicated than it actually is... which, I guess, is the way ya'll want it.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 13

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/6/2008 4:08:09 AM

JAMiAM

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Ray,

Thanks for clarifying that. If I misunderstood the point you were trying to get across, then by all means let me know. I just wanted to make sure that nobody would interpret your comments as I did, and think that you were trying to say that either the development team, or the community at large, were trying to stifle any work that you were doing. I do think that erasing your HD of whatever work you did do, out of whatever frustration you obviously felt at the time was a bit...drastic.

Regards,
James

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 14

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/6/2008 3:24:56 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

*Sigh*

You just don't get it do you.. J-Man.

Frustration had nothing to do with my decision.

The correct term is apathy.

And yes, in one case a PM from an outspoken member of the community pleading with me not to publish my Bug Hunt scenario.

I finished that scenario, enjoyed creating it and played it many times. It's gone now... so what?

You obviously haven't a clue where I am coming from. I've designed dozens of scenarios for my own personal pleasure. The only reason I published the two that I did was to try to help stir some interest in the game.

Just like the only reason I had a tutorial scenario on the drawing board among three or four others, is because, unless one suffers from a reading deficiency, it was pretty obvious that the tutorials contained in the game were user unfriendly.

But I was meet with Apathy.

Nobody cared about broadening the base of the game... why should I?

Get it?

'nuff said... Caio.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 15

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/7/2008 5:04:59 AM

Obsolete

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Well, it was nice for Talonsoft to include a very nice Manual with their Toaw (Elite) edition. I still have that book and have read it many times. But I have to admit, even with the manual, etc. it seems a lot of the Panzer General players just found it too 'uphill?' of a game to get into, and lost interest fast.

Surprises me.

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 16

RE: Operational Art of War Tutorials - 1/11/2008 2:07:53 AM

ORANGE