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Bombing Singapore - 12/31/2007 12:24:10 AM   
skrewball


Posts: 305
Joined: 12/10/2000
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		Another Dilemma...

My opponent has loaded up Singapore...reinforced with AA and it is well supplied (for now).

I have launched two massive bombing raids and have had the following results...


DAY ONE
Day Air attack on Singapore , at 22,51

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 90

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 13 destroyed, 54 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Wirraway: 2 destroyed
Hudson I: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
230 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 45

DAY TWO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Singapore , at 22,51

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 33
Ki-21-II Sally x 52

Allied aircraft
Hawk 75A x 1
CW-21B Demon x 4
P-40B Tomahawk x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 3 destroyed
Ki-21-II Sally: 4 destroyed, 33 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hawk 75A: 1 damaged
CW-21B Demon: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 4 destroyed, 3 damaged


Allied ground losses:
107 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 8
Runway hits 6

-------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Singapore , at 22,51

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 110

Allied aircraft
CW-21B Demon x 1
P-40B Tomahawk x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 12 destroyed, 67 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Wirraway: 1 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
358 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 22

Now in two days with High Morale, No Fatigue and bombing from 12,000 I have lost 29 Bombers with 154 damaged! Morale for 10 Bomber Squadrons is in the 20s! I can't keep that up...will the results improve? What else can I do?

_____________________________

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Post #: 1
RE: Bombing Singapore - 12/31/2007 12:25:46 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		This sounds like NikMod - is it???

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 2
RE: Bombing Singapore - 12/31/2007 12:33:44 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		And long range from Saigon & Cambodian fields?

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(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3
RE: Bombing Singapore - 12/31/2007 1:48:02 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This sounds like NikMod - is it???



oh yeah, this smells like the flak fanboy!

I would recon it a lot, then send in the BBs. I would guess the chance to see your BBs hurt are 15-20%. If the big CD guns don´t fire back effective you will see thousands of support troops disabled and then you can start your air offensive again.

Perhaps you can test it against the AI first, but I have seen the guns at Singapore or Bataan rarely hurting BBs...

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Post #: 4
RE: Bombing Singapore - 12/31/2007 1:50:22 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Another Dilemma...

My opponent has loaded up Singapore...reinforced with AA and it is well supplied (for now).

I have launched two massive bombing raids and have had the following results...Now in two days with High Morale, No Fatigue and bombing from 12,000 I have lost 29 Bombers with 154 damaged! Morale for 10 Bomber Squadrons is in the 20s! I can't keep that up...will the results improve? What else can I do?



Remember though, you'll be able to devastate his LBA attacks later, the same way.

Same guy who's slamming you in China?
Start sending massive reinforcements into China and SEA.
Start using PP's to release Kwangtung units.

In CHS, Asia needs massive Japanese reinforcements to hold the western part of the map in check.


< Message edited by Halsey -- 12/31/2007 2:04:24 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Bombing Singapore - 12/31/2007 8:29:58 AM   
skrewball


Posts: 305
Joined: 12/10/2000
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		Thanks for all of the replies, yup same guy. I'm not used to playing the Japanese, though I am a JFB, I love the guerilla style warfare that the Americans get to do in the early war.

This is CHS actually. I just think that he's been spending time reinforcing. As noted by the 5 single ship TFs in the Hex. I have 3 BBs that are out of comission for a while. I guess I just need to keep on pounding.


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 6
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/2/2008 5:07:01 AM   
dekwik


Posts: 90
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I had a similar experieince in CHS Nikmod. In a pbem against thomas kiilerich I tried to avoid bombing Singapore, but he keeps killing me with the death of a thousand cuts (AP's and DD's hit by torps and bombs.) I first attacked at 23,000 feet with litle loss and little effect. I then went in with 180 level bombers from close at 6,000 feet with (admitedly not enough) 40 escort and lost 43 planes, with 114 damaged. Morale dropped about 30 points average. Prety bloody. We did about 90 field damage, but his engineers took care of most of that quickly. Recon showed Thomas had about 250 aircraft there before the attack. He seeems to have thinned that by half now though. Or maybe it's FOW and my attck was WAAAAY more effective than recon showed Or maybe I'm dreaming !!!

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 7
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/2/2008 5:14:38 AM   
dekwik


Posts: 90
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I should add that I believe Singapore lost about 30 aircraft, and about another 30 were damaged.

(in reply to dekwik)
Post #: 8
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/2/2008 12:36:30 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dekwik

I had a similar experieince in CHS Nikmod. In a pbem against thomas kiilerich I tried to avoid bombing Singapore, but he keeps killing me with the death of a thousand cuts (AP's and DD's hit by torps and bombs.) I first attacked at 23,000 feet with litle loss and little effect. I then went in with 180 level bombers from close at 6,000 feet with (admitedly not enough) 40 escort and lost 43 planes, with 114 damaged. Morale dropped about 30 points average. Prety bloody. We did about 90 field damage, but his engineers took care of most of that quickly. Recon showed Thomas had about 250 aircraft there before the attack. He seeems to have thinned that by half now though. Or maybe it's FOW and my attck was WAAAAY more effective than recon showed Or maybe I'm dreaming !!!

You can see the exact number of planes destroyed in the intel screen, aircraft losses. No fog of war here.

_____________________________


(in reply to dekwik)
Post #: 9
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 6:08:05 AM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline 		Forget bombing Singapore with 2E bombers. Once you capture Mersing and/or Johore Bharu hit him with 3-4 of your land based Kate groups (80-110 Kates) from 27,000 feet and you will shut Singapore down in a few days with minimal losses.

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 10
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 9:27:56 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

Forget bombing Singapore with 2E bombers. Once you capture Mersing and/or Johore Bharu hit him with 3-4 of your land based Kate groups (80-110 Kates) from 27,000 feet and you will shut Singapore down in a few days with minimal losses.



Why should Kates that carry 1 bomb, have a lower durability and are unarmored be more effective than 2E bombers that carry 4 bombs, have a higher durability and are armored?

_____________________________


(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 11
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 3:29:51 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		BBs work great against Singapore.

In my current PBEM (Joe Friday vs Sherlock Holmes) I have bombarded Singapore 3 times and the only ill effect was hitting a single mine. The base is wrecked from the bombardments.

This was the result of the 12/7 bombardment:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

5 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 19, on fire, heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
431 casualties reported
Guns lost 11
Vehicles lost 1

Runway hits 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 2 destroyed
Vildebeest IV: 1 destroyed
Swordfish: 1 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Nagato, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 43, on fire, heavy damage
CL Danae, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Isis, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Tenedos, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Manoora, Shell hits 1


Allied ground losses:
1759 casualties reported
Guns lost 19
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 15

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 2 destroyed
Vildebeest IV: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 17, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CL Danae, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1, on fire


Allied ground losses:
134 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 38, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
120 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 5



< Message edited by RUPD3658 -- 1/4/2008 3:32:30 PM >

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 12
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 3:32:10 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

BBs work great against Singapore.

In my current PBEM (Joe Friday vs Sherlock Holmes) I have bombarded Singapore 3 times and the only ill effect was hitting a single mine. The base is wrecked from the bombardments.



Hmmm... other folks have reported losing CAs and BBs in trying this... i suspect it has to do with supply levels. Trying it on a fully supplied Singapore would probably have some, er... interesting results.

Was Singapore cut off or otherwise low on supply when you tried this?

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 13
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 3:34:46 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		OK - i see your revised post above ... but this was on 12/7 when you get "first turn surprise", no??

How about later bombardments?

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/4/2008 3:36:17 PM >

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 14
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 4:04:44 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		About a week later:

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed

10 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Mutsu
BB Nagato
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
4064 casualties reported
Guns lost 39
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45
Port hits 16
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 15
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 4:14:22 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

About a week later:

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed

10 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Mutsu
BB Nagato
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
4064 casualties reported
Guns lost 39
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45
Port hits 16
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1


Interesting... (need chin-stroking smiley here...)

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 16
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 6:30:55 PM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline 		I suppose that initial (12/7) bombardment disrupted the CD guns...



< Message edited by Dino -- 1/4/2008 6:32:53 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 6:57:48 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

I suppose that initial (12/7) bombardment disrupted the CD guns...





That had occured to me... i am wondering if something else could be going on...

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 18
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/4/2008 9:12:43 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

BBs work great against Singapore.

In my current PBEM (Joe Friday vs Sherlock Holmes) I have bombarded Singapore 3 times and the only ill effect was hitting a single mine. The base is wrecked from the bombardments.



Bzzrt! Gamey!

Nelson: "A Ship's a Fool to Fight a Fort."

Ericsson: "A single shot can sink a ship, while a hundred salvos cannot silence a fort."

The point is that coastal combat is a completely different can of worms. On the open ocean, the enemy cannot hide. Going in to bombard a fort means that you're hostage to all sorts of surprises. The game is already weak at handling surface engagements, and you're taking advantage of holes you can drive a battleship through.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 19
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/5/2008 5:09:50 AM   
dekwik


Posts: 90
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Update:
a few dayys later, bombed Singapore again with about 280 bombers and about 70 fighters in a series of 3 raids in one day, mainly from close, mainly sally, with betty, all at 6,000 feet. Thomas is entrenched and well supplied. He may even have brought in extra AAA and we're playing CHS nikmod. I lost 39 planes, with about 150 damaged. He lost about the same number, but mostly fighters in the air rather than bombers on the ground. We got 46 airbase, 13 airbase supply and 161 runway damage.
I think that's about reasonable. I like that nik mod makes an air commander fear the AAA a little.
In my limited experience vs AI bombarding the port with BB's I tended to get savaged. I've never been able to get more than 5 or 6 B's i the same place either!

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 20
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/5/2008 9:40:24 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

OK - i see your revised post above ... but this was on 12/7 when you get "first turn surprise", no??

How about later bombardments?


The first turn surprise for the British in Malaya was the unexpected effectiveness of the Japanese Betties. They were ready for something traditional like a shore bombardment or an invasion. The reason the PoW and Repulse were sunk was that they were hurrying north to mess up the Japanese invasion at Khota.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 21
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/5/2008 2:27:47 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

OK - i see your revised post above ... but this was on 12/7 when you get "first turn surprise", no??

How about later bombardments?


The first turn surprise for the British in Malaya was the unexpected effectiveness of the Japanese Betties. They were ready for something traditional like a shore bombardment or an invasion. The reason the PoW and Repulse were sunk was that they were hurrying north to mess up the Japanese invasion at Khota.

Yes, adn everyone knew that airplanes could not sink a Battleship that whas under-way

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

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Post #: 22
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/5/2008 3:22:52 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

About a week later:

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed

10 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Mutsu
BB Nagato
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
4064 casualties reported
Guns lost 39
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45
Port hits 16
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1


I suppose that initial (12/7) bombardment disrupted the CD guns...


in RUPD's game he struck Singapore w/ the KB on day one, which may have also lead to the disruption of the CD-guns.

quote:

Hmmm... other folks have reported losing CAs and BBs in trying this... i suspect it has to do with supply levels. Trying it on a fully supplied Singapore would probably have some, er... interesting results.


also i have found that if you keep CA's and DD's out of bombardment TF's, those CD-guns at Singapore are pretty enept. May have to test this working hypothesis at Manila.



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Post #: 23
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/5/2008 4:04:37 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Hmmm... other folks have reported losing CAs and BBs in trying this... i suspect it has to do with supply levels. Trying it on a fully supplied Singapore would probably have some, er... interesting results.


also i have found that if you keep CA's and DD's out of bombardment TF's, those CD-guns at Singapore are pretty enept. May have to test this working hypothesis at Manila.


In a game against the AI where I was the Japanese, I decided to invade Manila on December 7. I sent a landing TF escorted by BB, CA, DD. It worked great on December 7. On December 8, my audacity was rewarded by devastating blows from Corregidor on many of my ships, transports and combatants alike.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/5/2008 4:05:45 PM >

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 24
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/6/2008 12:30:57 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		Well, let me tell you. Loss is one thing, but more important is, you do something with purpose, not for fun or other similar stupid reasons.

If your loss is too heavy, try to bomb above 15,000 feet to avoid 2 pound AA gun.

Bombing with battleships is a good idea. First, you set a minimal number of battlewagons necessary for you next plan, then, you proceed to use them, until the damage you suffer makes your strength reach that minimal requirement.

(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 25
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/6/2008 1:32:49 AM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



also i have found that if you keep CA's and DD's out of bombardment TF's, those CD-guns at Singapore are pretty enept. May have to test this working hypothesis at Manila.





Singapore has only 3 battleship caliber guns. Manila and corregidor have what.. 20 together? or more?

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 26
RE: Bombing Singapore - 1/6/2008 9:06:45 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



also i have found that if you keep CA's and DD's out of bombardment TF's, those CD-guns at Singapore are pretty enept. May have to test this working hypothesis at Manila.





Singapore has only 3 battleship caliber guns. Manila and corregidor have what.. 20 together? or more?


Multiply by four to get their effective count, plus they don't stay sunk. Next consider that short-based 8 inch rifles and heavy mortars were good enough to deal with the lighter IJN BBs. What about torpedoes and mines? Coastal craft? The base was on the west coast of the island, up a bit. Not a fun place for a blue water navy.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to String)
Post #: 27
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