RE: WitP Tracker...

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: WitP Tracker...

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: WitP Tracker...

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/16/2007 7:53:20 PM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

I'm not quite sure I'm reading this correctly, can you please confirm.....

1. AE will not allow any of the Bodhi, Woos, or this interface to interface with it?
2. AE will have something based upon stuff (Bodhi/Woos) that already exists?
3. AE would allow people to create interfaces like this, but by being allowed into the 'black box'?

Or is it that really you aren't sure yourselves yet given where you are in the project?

I did catch a posting from WOOS shortly after news broke on the AE edition that suggested he was in fact working within the development or alongside it..... but he's not listed as part of the team.

I'm just seeking clarification for people and especially for the guys doing all this work outside of the AE team.

Roger

WOOS is on the AE team ... so an AE version of his tool kit will be packaged in with AE.

Other utilities that rely on reading the current save files will not work with AE because AE has a different file format and the save file will be encrypted.

_____________________________

AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead

(in reply to Roger Neilson II)

Post #: 31

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/16/2007 8:21:50 PM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
WOOS is on the AE team ... so an AE version of his tool kit will be packaged in with AE.

Other utilities that rely on reading the current save files will not work with AE because AE has a different file format and the save file will be encrypted.

Thanks for that information.
I guess we need to decide if we spend our efforts on our program for "Classic" WitP only, or on trying to influence the AE team to adopt some of our ideas.

(in reply to jwilkerson)

Post #: 32

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/17/2007 12:18:29 AM

Woos

Posts: 683
Joined: 6/5/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline

Nice tool. It seems to go into the direction of "show everything possible" where I tried to limit data to the things I consider important and not available from within WitP. The latter approach keeps things easier understandable, the former doesn't limit people to the data the programmer found important. BTW, the next version of WitPdecoder (publication currently hanging on some red tape cutting [correct idiom?]) does also have a AC class overview (including the patented snake-oil *cough* battle-deciding Anti-Fighter, Anti-Bomber and Bombing ratings) and some better information on repairs (in the Map Overview tab).

Some warning on directly reading the save game files. There are lots of suprises hidden inside as can be seen from the constant stream of fixes for WitPdecoder necessary to handle special cases. And RHS had an especially high number of exceptions and is thus not supported by WitPdecoder (and I didn't hear from anyone who successfully used wiptDecoder on RHS). So witpTracker running on stock and BigB doesn't necessarily mean it also works with RHS. BTW, do not forget to correctly handle passwords.

For being able to use your tool with AE you could use the CSV dumps of witpDecoder (which will stay with AE as they don't reveal any information unknown to the player). The problem with them is of course the constantly changing DB format. Since they are generated automatically by the HSQLDB engine every schema change will be visible and can break any read-in routine. Another possibility would be for me to allow also table plugins for WitPdecoder (next version currently only has a plugin that can draw onto the map in the Map overview tab, which is useless for most the information you show there). But that's probably a bit more complicated due to use interaction requirements.

And finally, any chance to dump your region assignments into WitPdecoder compatible clusters.csv and clusterbases.csv files? Would probably increase the number supported scenarios if people wouldn't have to edit .csv files in a spreadsheet program.

< Message edited by Woos -- 12/17/2007 12:54:41 AM >

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 33

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/17/2007 7:08:58 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

Woo,
thanks for your post, I don't believe we are trying to reveal "secret information", our purpose is to analyse the data in a more meaningful or useful way. I think your tool is terrific...we just wanted to extend that vision, and make the data more transparent, and more meaningful than it already is to the end user. Understanding can sometimes be found easier, in the little things.

In hindsight, I haven't really written a well explained essay here, or outlined many of our ideas, but it is 2 am ... so please excuse any failings on my part to explain adequately... here goes...

This is about having quick analysed Macro information, plus, the ability for the user to really understand what is happening, through micro historical game data.

Of course you're right that concise information is more understandable, but by providing more analysis and prediction, we can surely help users make more meaningful decisions in their production / logistical / strategic choices.

For instance, if we just showed all the air group data, with no aggregates/analysis, it would be meaningless, however if we add the dimension of showing average plane losses, incoming groups, their arrival date, the number of engines available and what might likely be produced by a certain date and potential upgrades ... thus analysing and (sometimes haphazardly - av.losses)predicting the future - thus giving meaningful warnings/advice, it would be easier for the user to calculate industrial requirements (build capacity - actually the program will do this)and make logical decisions - expand, halt, switch.
(see screen shot of my access DB, from your csv's - for small direction of what I envision here)

Ok, we don't want an automated system, the beauty for me, playing as the Japanese, are the choices I can make production wise, eg. accelerating ships or aircraft types. But wouldn't it be nice to determine out of a list of ships yet to arrive, what can be accelerated without the paper and pen calculations or LCU reinforcements, what to turn on / off regarding equip availability.

Similarly, with production, it is not just the aggregates, but what needs to be shipped, when and to where. Using base supply etc (then regional)information, and it's Qty reduction, can't we give a prediction as to when and what needs to be supplied. Shouldn't we also be able to see what ships are en route, with what and how long before they arrive ? I know the TF in game data does some of this, just not in a well organised way.

Regional and base consumption of resources etc, are not that interesting, but given tabular or graphical historicity, they jump to life, ala your fine program. By also calculating what surplus there is, and will be, surely we can also advise on expansion ... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1612397 (some elements here - without the expansion)

Of course aggregates are important, such as a count on ship losses,(how many ppl hate counting these for their AAR's?)
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1625019
But there are nut cases, like me, who just desire as much as possible when I want it, such as analysing all the pilot information(mission/experience increase etc) but and also having the ability to see a quick "to do" list...

Or taken the fact that plane factories, in the industry screen, show limited information why can't we show this ... and (beyond the scope of this program) maybe within AE, allow users to just show all the plane factories, and organise it centrally, instead of ferreting around, writing notes and jumping from base to base ... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1579085

Some of our ideas are pipedreams, but many are useful, and I hope others will find them as such, so maybe you can have a look at this when it's semi-finished or use some our thoughts within AE ... but then, that is also up to the users desire & hopefully your teams willingness to listen to some fresh perspective, even if it is late to the party.

I don't want to burden, the team with unnecessary coding/testing as I like everyone else is eagerly anticipating this add-on, however, if the savegame file is to be encrypted, then programs like this will be useless, and we will have no choice, so can we please make these info screens useful?

Lastly, I speak for Floyd here,(he had the foresight to implement this) but the base clusters are fully dynamic and editable within the program, there is no fiddling outside the program.

Sincerely, Damian

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Woos)

Post #: 34

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/17/2007 10:26:55 PM

VSWG

Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline

Since a lot of players (including me) will continue playing their "classic WitP" PBEMs after the release of AE, I hope you two will continue working on your tool.

_____________________________

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 35

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/18/2007 1:02:29 AM

Woos

Posts: 683
Joined: 6/5/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline

Hi Damian,

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Of course you're right that concise information is more understandable, but by providing more analysis and prediction, we can surely help users make more meaningful decisions in their production / logistical / strategic choices.

For instance, if we just showed all the air group data, with no aggregates/analysis, it would be meaningless, however if we add the dimension of showing average plane losses, incoming groups, their arrival date, the number of engines available and what might likely be produced by a certain date and potential upgrades ... thus analysing and (sometimes haphazardly - av.losses)predicting the future - thus giving meaningful warnings/advice, it would be easier for the user to calculate industrial requirements (build capacity - actually the program will do this)and make logical decisions - expand, halt, switch.

You might want to look into Data Mining (once you have the basics running), since a lot of what you write sounds really near to the requirements for it. E.g. running some self-learning clustering algorithm (or one specified by you) might help the user find commonalities between his airgroups (or LCUs, ...) which are difficult to find with the naked eye. Of course the problem might be that the clusters found do not reveal any new information (e.g. all the fighters deployed in Burma landing in a different cluster than the fighters deployed in the NEI).

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Similarly, with production, it is not just the aggregates, but what needs to be shipped, when and to where. Using base supply etc (then regional)information, and it's Qty reduction, can't we give a prediction as to when and what needs to be supplied. Shouldn't we also be able to see what ships are en route, with what and how long before they arrive ? I know the TF in game data does some of this, just not in a well organised way.

I think this paragraph nicely defines the difference between witpDecoder and witpTracker. At least as I see it. I wanted to write a tool which provides enough information to a (somewhat) experienced player (= me) to play WitP by the seat of his pants (e.g. one sends resources to an industry cluster if reserves near 50 days worth). witpTracker on the other hand seems (as far as I understand you) to intend to provide the ability to predict more exactly what is needed (like e.g. "I have to send either a convoy from Brunei latest if 24 days are left or from Palembang if 28 days are left"). This definitely helps new players who don't know the rules of thumb and allows experienced players to play more at the limit (improving performance). The disadvantage of the second approach in my eyes is possibly a tool more complicated to use and surely a tool more complicated to program. Specifically the latter means that witpDecoder will not do it (but maybe someday plugins will allow other people to include such functionality).

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Or taken the fact that plane factories, in the industry screen, show limited information why can't we show this ... and (beyond the scope of this program) maybe within AE, allow users to just show all the plane factories, and organise it centrally, instead of ferreting around, writing notes and jumping from base to base ... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1579085

This lack of central industry control is one of the gripes I had with the WitP UI which brought me to writing witpDecoder. Look at any other game with an economic component and you will find that there is a central way to influence your production. Not so in WitP where you have to go through bases. Not very solvable with an external, data displaying tool, alas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477
but then, that is also up to the users desire & hopefully your teams willingness to listen to some fresh perspective, even if it is late to the party.

My team?
*looks around*
Damn, where did they all go?
Hmm, has there ever been one?

If you talk about the AE team as a whole, I think it has been decided that a lot of the data presented by WitpDecoder cannot be easily shown by WitP itself (but you would have to ask Joe about that). That's why there will be a WitpDecoder (possibly with different name) for WitP-AE.

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 36

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/18/2007 1:21:14 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

I like Bohdi's utility in large part because it organises intel data similarly to what I'm used to. I'd like to see an effective moving ships tracker algorithm added, but that would be a really big deal, involving input from my current research in autonomous robot control.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Roger Neilson II)

Post #: 37

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/20/2007 12:54:26 AM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

Damian and I will continue to work on this program.
When AE comes out, we will then decide what to do next.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 38

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/20/2007 12:55:17 AM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I like Bohdi's utility in large part because it organises intel data similarly to what I'm used to. I'd like to see an effective moving ships tracker algorithm added, but that would be a really big deal, involving input from my current research in autonomous robot control.

I'm not sure what you mean by "moving ships tracker algorithm". Do you mean tracking the movement of enemy ships?

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 39

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/20/2007 9:43:03 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I like Bohdi's utility in large part because it organises intel data similarly to what I'm used to. I'd like to see an effective moving ships tracker algorithm added, but that would be a really big deal, involving input from my current research in autonomous robot control.

I'm not sure what you mean by "moving ships tracker algorithm". Do you mean tracking the movement of enemy ships?

The knee-jerk engineering solution would be a Kalman filter, but that has a series of weaknesses:
1. A Kalman filter is an optimal linear filter, but ships follow curved paths (geodesics or rhumb lines).
2. Ships maneuver or sail to waypoints and change course. Kalman filters are too dumb to pick up on situational clues or take account of how ship captains actually maneuver their ships.
3. The expansion of the covariance matrix for the Kalman filter over time does not model how ship tracks become uncertain after a few days off the screen.

On the other hand, a non-linear filter can be faked out by deceptive tactics and will be sensitive to the order and timing of updates to tracks. Association of track reports to the correct track is also a hard problem--we run into this in auditory scene analysis.

So I use the Bohdi utility and draw my own conclusions from the pattern of reports. If you provide something similar, the reports should be colour-coded in some obvious way based on how old they are.

_____________________________

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 40

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/20/2007 7:16:40 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

I totally glazed over about word 5.........then read this, explaining all:

quote:

Harry Erwin, PhD.......Computational neuroethologist:

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 41

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/20/2007 7:31:29 PM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I like Bohdi's utility in large part because it organises intel data similarly to what I'm used to. I'd like to see an effective moving ships tracker algorithm added, but that would be a really big deal, involving input from my current research in autonomous robot control.

I'm not sure what you mean by "moving ships tracker algorithm". Do you mean tracking the movement of enemy ships?

The knee-jerk engineering solution would be a Kalman filter, but that has a series of weaknesses:
1. A Kalman filter is an optimal linear filter, but ships follow curved paths (geodesics or rhumb lines).
2. Ships maneuver or sail to waypoints and change course. Kalman filters are too dumb to pick up on situational clues or take account of how ship captains actually maneuver their ships.
3. The expansion of the covariance matrix for the Kalman filter over time does not model how ship tracks become uncertain after a few days off the screen.

On the other hand, a non-linear filter can be faked out by deceptive tactics and will be sensitive to the order and timing of updates to tracks. Association of track reports to the correct track is also a hard problem--we run into this in auditory scene analysis.

So I use the Bohdi utility and draw my own conclusions from the pattern of reports. If you provide something similar, the reports should be colour-coded in some obvious way based on how old they are.

I doubt we'll be able to solve that problem for you with this program. I'm sure if we could reliably predict the path of a task force, nobody would want to play against us (or we'd be doing some super-secret government work we can't tell you about).

Floyd

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 42

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/20/2007 8:19:41 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I totally glazed over about word 5.........then read this, explaining all:

quote:

Harry Erwin, PhD.......Computational neuroethologist:

That's my current job description; I also worked on OBU. I look at the game as the flight simulator version.

< Message edited by herwin -- 12/20/2007 11:15:39 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 43

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/26/2007 1:24:35 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

Just a 2 quick screens in one showing plane production and engine production ...
more to do:-
1. list bases producing when you click the plane/engine row (will be below)
2. sorting and filtering...
3. Warnings need to be resolved.
4. Histories are ready to go ...
5**. Another Tab with individual planes , their production fully explored, upgrades to and from ... etc (think screen above from Access, on steroids)

Anyway ...onto Base Oil/supply/etc production now ... so I hope Floyd and I can bring this to you soon ...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 12/26/2007 1:26:45 PM >

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 44

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/28/2007 10:03:26 AM

Reg

Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

I doubt we'll be able to solve that problem for you with this program. I'm sure if we could reliably predict the path of a task force, nobody would want to play against us (or we'd be doing some super-secret government work we can't tell you about).

Floyd

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but until the game can produce task force tracks like the diagram below, I am not sure that I would want a tool which will provide intel to the players which will be much more accurate than what would have been available to contemporary commanders.

(Not to mention play balance issues against players who are not using the tool if it is not included as part of the standard distribution).

I am aware that AE is introducing way-points which will partially address the issue but I suspect it will not go far enough to disguise paths at the scale of this game if this tool is too effective.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Reg -- 12/28/2007 10:10:19 AM >

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 45

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/29/2007 12:53:16 AM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

I doubt we'll be able to solve that problem for you with this program. I'm sure if we could reliably predict the path of a task force, nobody would want to play against us (or we'd be doing some super-secret government work we can't tell you about).

Floyd

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but until the game can produce task force tracks like the diagram below, I am not sure that I would want a tool which will provide intel to the players which will be much more accurate than what would have been available to contemporary commanders.

(Not to mention play balance issues against players who are not using the tool if it is not included as part of the standard distribution).

I am aware that AE is introducing way-points which will partially address the issue but I suspect it will not go far enough to disguise paths at the scale of this game if this tool is too effective.

Are you asking for a history of where a TF was or a prediction of where it will be? I think Harry was asking for the latter, but we could certainly do the former (and I believe witpDecoder already does that).

Floyd

(in reply to Reg)

Post #: 46

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/29/2007 12:59:59 AM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

Okay, two more things I've been working on. The first is a Task Force screen. The part which adds value is that each TF can be assigned a label to group them together for some common purpose and each TF can also have a 40-character "note" attached to it so you don't need to remember or makes notes somewhere else.

Below is a screenshot of what I have so far. I will be adding filtering, sorting and more per-TF information. I'll also add a TF detail section containing (almost) the same information as in the game.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 47

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/29/2007 1:00:57 AM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

And the screen to define the labels...

Attachment (1)

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 48

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/29/2007 1:04:40 AM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

And the second part I was working on is something I call "alerts". These are things that sometimes silently happen in the game that I'd really like to know when it happens. For example, a ship upgrades, an airgroup upgrades, a new unit appears somewhere (like a reinforcement air fragment), supply running low at a base, TF out of fuel, subs out of ammo, etc etc. The below screen shows an example with ship upgrades. I'll add filtering, customization (which alerts to generate, different thresholds for some things) and other things.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 49

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/29/2007 12:54:09 PM

Roger Neilson II

Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline

MY my this is looking like a really nice utility........ can't wait to try it. That bit about being able to label the TF....... oh yes, my poor brain can have a rest.

Roger

_____________________________

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 50

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/30/2007 1:30:05 PM

Reg

Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

Are you asking for a history of where a TF was or a prediction of where it will be? I think Harry was asking for the latter, but we could certainly do the former (and I believe witpDecoder already does that).

Floyd

Don't get me wrong, this will be a great utility, I would just be a little concerned if its TF prediction capability were to be too good!! Whether a prediction capability (other than a reported course) should be included at all would be up to the other players though I wouldn't be keen due to the reasons I cited in my previous post.

IRL there were many things that prevented accurate task force position prediction that simply aren't included in the simplified WITP game world (which currently plots the most direct route).

An example of this is the course reversal (when spotted) of the Japanese task force on its way to the Battle of Savo Island. This caused the 32SQN Hudson to report an incorrect course track and prevented the sighting from being promptly passed on to the task force at Guadalcanal.

< Message edited by Reg -- 12/30/2007 1:40:17 PM >

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 51

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/30/2007 3:56:17 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

update of screens:-
1. Airgroups - have added some info...
Also has a pilots screen, also want to be able to click on group and have pilot info below (not done yet)
need: pilot screen & airgroup filtering (of course)
2. Aircraftproduction has 3 screens, overview and engines are almost complete, (with better labels - hope you can understand better this time) ...
want: Overview should have plane factories listed below.
want: Engines should have engine factories listed below.
Also upgrades needs work, but will focus on future production etc.
need: filtering etc.
maybe: split groups into 3 screens (fighters/bombers/shipbased) not sure, but maybe filtering is the best option ???
Damn Java Gui !!!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 12/30/2007 3:58:51 PM >

(in reply to Reg)

Post #: 52

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/30/2007 4:01:48 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

Another screen ... more to do ... coming along ok ?

Any suggestions ?

Production coming next hopefully ... soon...

Attachment (1)

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 53

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/31/2007 7:19:27 AM

Coach Z

Posts: 576
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: New York
Status: offline

Looks very interesting

_____________________________

ZUCK

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 54

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/31/2007 7:23:14 AM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

Is this thing ready yet?

_____________________________

(in reply to Coach Z)

Post #: 55

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/31/2007 9:13:20 AM

Roger Neilson II

Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline

Couple of suggestions

I hate the info screens as you can't take info from them unless you capture them as screen shots. In particular I'd like to be able to get the ships sunk data and use it in other ways.... I'm not after any info I should not have, but it would be good to take info like this and be able to put it into AARs.... with comments. At present you can't select a list, but have to settle for whatever is shown on the screen shot and this limits what you can do with it. It would also allow greater annotation and dating of such info if extra text fields were available. For example the four capital ships here - three were lost in the initial week of the war..... only the Pennsylvania was lost later in defence of Menando.

Roger

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 56

RE: WitP Tracker... - 12/31/2007 9:51:03 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

I doubt we'll be able to solve that problem for you with this program. I'm sure if we could reliably predict the path of a task force, nobody would want to play against us (or we'd be doing some super-secret government work we can't tell you about).

Floyd

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but until the game can produce task force tracks like the diagram below, I am not sure that I would want a tool which will provide intel to the players which will be much more accurate than what would have been available to contemporary commanders.

(Not to mention play balance issues against players who are not using the tool if it is not included as part of the standard distribution).

I am aware that AE is introducing way-points which will partially address the issue but I suspect it will not go far enough to disguise paths at the scale of this game if this tool is too effective.

Are you asking for a history of where a TF was or a prediction of where it will be? I think Harry was asking for the latter, but we could certainly do the former (and I believe witpDecoder already does that).

Floyd

Yes, I was asking for something that might have professional interest

. History is easy if you know which TF it is that you've detected. History is very hard if you need to associate track reports to enemy TFs. In that case, you have to predict the set of known tracks to the time of the report and decide which one the track report represents. Or you may decide that it's a new track entirely. I'd be very interested in something simpler that could simply present the data and allow the players to make their judgements.

_____________________________

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 57

RE: WitP Tracker... - 1/1/2008 9:41:26 PM

floydg

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Couple of suggestions

I hate the info screens as you can't take info from them unless you capture them as screen shots. In particular I'd like to be able to get the ships sunk data and use it in other ways.... I'm not after any info I should not have, but it would be good to take info like this and be able to put it into AARs.... with comments. At present you can't select a list, but have to settle for whatever is shown on the screen shot and this limits what you can do with it. It would also allow greater annotation and dating of such info if extra text fields were available. For example the four capital ships here - three were lost in the initial week of the war..... only the Pennsylvania was lost later in defence of Menando.

Roger

I can do something like that for the side you're playing. I may be able to do it for the opposing side as well if I can figure out how the game models the FOW aspect.

But otherwise, here is a screen in-progress. It's similar to the in-game screen, except this can show all ships, not just active ones (ignore the Speed column, it's just a place-holder for now). I'll add filtering to only show active ships, reinforcements or sunk ships. The last column is a free-form text entry for notes.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Roger Neilson II)

Post #: 58

RE: WitP Tracker... - 1/1/2008 11:54:02 PM

Roger Neilson II

Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline

excellent, would be nice to be able to annotate the opposition as well... provided its info that is available through normal combat reports.

Roger

_____________________________

(in reply to floydg)

Post #: 59

RE: WitP Tracker... - 1/2/2008 12:43:13 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline